Non-eu citizen travel to France or Italy with Irish husband

JandL · Post by **JandL** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:40 pm

Hi there,

I am a non-eu citizen (Filipino) married to an Irish citizen. We plan to travel Paris or Rome for our 2nd year anniversary. I have few queries:

Do I need a Schengen Visa application form though I will travel with my husband?
In travelling France, do they really need proof of employment, proof of address, proof of medical insurance and return ticken + hotel booking?

We are currently living with my mum-in-law but we both used address of my mum-in-law on both our tax cert & bank statements(not joint) address. Will this be ok?

Will bank statements prove that we can have sufficient financial means to support yourself during your journey ? We don't have medical insurance yet but if we apply for travel insurance, will they accept that?

How long will it take to get my visa upon application?

I hope somebody could clarify this as we really want to celebrate our anniversary in Paris or Rome.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:16 pm

JandL wrote:Hi there,

I am a non-eu citizen (Filipino) married to an Irish citizen. We plan to travel Paris or Rome for our 2nd year anniversary. I have few queries:

Do I need a Schengen Visa application form though I will travel with my husband?

You certainly need a schengen visa which should be issue free of charge.

JandL wrote:In travelling France, do they really need proof of employment, proof of address, proof of medical insurance and return ticken + hotel booking?

You are not required under EU law to provide the above if you are married to an EU citizen (EU Citizen).

JandL wrote:We are currently living with my mum-in-law but we both used address of my mum-in-law on both our tax cert & bank statements(not joint) address. Will this be ok?

Shouldn't be a problem at all

JandL wrote:Will bank statements prove that we can have sufficient financial means to support yourself during your journey ? We don't have medical insurance yet but if we apply for travel insurance, will they accept that?

How long will it take to get my visa upon application?

I hope somebody could clarify this as we really want to celebrate our anniversary in Paris or Rome.

As stated earlier only your husband's passport and proof of your relationship are to be required from you. No air ticket , hotel booking ect are required and the visa should be issued free of charge

jhbmike · Post by **jhbmike** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:04 pm

Obie is right with what he has answered however please bear in mind that they do ask for Travel tickets.(French Embassy).
I was there 6 months ago with this same issue and had a huge fight with them. You cant even get in to the consulate unless the security lets you through and I remember them asking for those documents. Also remember to take photocopies as they will not make any copies for you.

acme4242 · Post by **acme4242** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:13 am

Hi JanDL

As Obie wrote eariler, I will just add, you also
need Irish Re-Entry visa. And to wish you and your husband a lovely anniversary.

You need a Irish Re-Entry visa, to get back into Ireland
see http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000158

You need a Schengen Visa to get into France, Italy etc.
To know your legal rights read here
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/c ... ex_en.html

As your right of entry is derived from your family ties with a Union citizen, all the Member State consular officials can ask you to produce for the visa application is your passport and a document establishing the family ties with a Union citizen, such as marriage or birth certificate and proof of dependence, where applicable.

WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW

Consular officers issuing the visas may not:
* ask you to produce any documents other than a valid passport and documents attesting to your family link with a Union citizen and proof of dependence, where applicable, such as to furnish proof of means to support yourself, travel tickets, employment certificate, pay slips, bank statements, proof of accommodation, means of subsistence, medical certificate â€¦
* ask you how much money you have to spend;
* ask you questions regarding the purpose and duration of your trip.

However, you will find Embassies, especially French
consider themselves above the law, and will demand
airline tickets.
What you can do is, print the e-ticket before you "confirm and pay"
While this printout is useless at the airport, It will statisfy
the stupid French Embassy.

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:15 am

JandL wrote:In travelling France, do they really need proof of employment, proof of address, proof of medical insurance and return ticket + hotel booking?

Obie wrote:You are not required under EU law to provide the above if you are married to an EU citizen (EU Citizen).

EU Law or not, the French Embassy in Dublin require the following information from spouses of Irish Citizens (same list as any non-EU person applying for Schengen Visa). That list includes all the details that JandL mentioned including Health Insurance, Flights, Hotels etc. You can read about my husband's experience (also non-EU spouse of Irish Citizen) with getting a visa from the french Embassy recently here.

You can fight it and go to Solvit or whoever, but that won't help you with getting your visa if you need it soon.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:28 pm

As I see it the problem is that Ireland is not part of the Schengen group.

In this case the embassies appear to be free to ask for anything they like and you have no option other than to comply.

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:10 pm

scrudu wrote:You can fight it and go to Solvit or whoever, but that won't help you with getting your visa if you need it soon.

Have you done this? Any results?

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:44 pm

JandL wrote:I am a non-eu citizen (Filipino) married to an Irish citizen. We plan to travel Paris or Rome for our 2nd year anniversary. I have few queries:

Do I need a Schengen Visa...

Hi JandL,

I am convinced that you are allowed to travel without visa, although I cannot provide living proof that it actually works in practice.

>>Here<< is my earlier post which describes why I think it SHOULD be possible.

I can personally tell you that I (German/Belgian) entered France with my wife (Lebanese) crossing on a ferry from Rosslare to Cherbourg, entering France on a 4EUFam-card. That was actually our first time entering Schengen where everyting was properly handled: My wife's passport was NOT stamped.

The French embassy in Dublin has no clue about the law whatsoever, they continue to bluntly ignore it.

Good luck and enjoy your trip...

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:35 pm

ca.funke, I agree with you that visa-free travel is pretty straight forward.

But please note that the OP does not have a 4EUFam card. So they will have to do visa free entry to France and then back into Ireland. Could be a little more stress and hassle than is nice for a wedding anniversary.

Put another way, I would enjoy doing this, but I think my wife would not.

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:29 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
scrudu wrote:You can fight it and go to Solvit or whoever, but that won't help you with getting your visa if you need it soon.
Have you done this? Any results?

Yes I contacted both the German Embassy and Solvit regarding how the German Embassy insist on Stamp4 Spouses of Irish citizens having to apply for a German visa whereas Stamp4EUFAM holders do not. Both Solvit and the German Embassy disputed my claim that my husband (non-EU spouse of Irish citizen residing in Ireland on Stamp4) should not require a visa to enter Germany with me for tourism purposes.

The Solvit Answer was as follows:

Fri, May 18, 2007 at 2:48 PM
Dear Ms. XX,

The Irish SOLVIT Centre have consulted with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform regarding your SOLVIT complaint.

The Department of Justice have informed us that a Stamp 4 and a Stamp 4EUFAM are both considered a residency card. However, Stamp 4 does not come under Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC. As the non-EU spouse of an Irish citizen, your husband's residency application was looked at under Irish Law, namely the Immigration Act, 2004, and not European Law, Directive 2004/38/EC.

In this instance, the Irish SOLVIT Centre cannot bring a case against Germany as the Irish Stamp 4 residency card is not a residency card according to Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC, and so the German authority are correct in requiring your husband to complete the full tourist visa form.

The Irish SOLVIT Centre pointed out to the Department of Justice, that the European Directive does not distinguish between Irish and other EU citizens and that issuing a Stamp 4 residency card to third country spouses of Irish citizens was causing problems for them when travelling within the EU. However, the position is as set out above. The Irish SOLVIT Centre may raise this issue with the Department of Justice again in the future.

I regret that SOLVIT could not be of assistance in your case.

Kind Regards
Sinead

Irish SOLVIT Centre
Internal Market Section
Dept. Enterprise, Trade and Employment
Ph:+ 353 1 631 2740
Fax:+ 353 1 631 2562

The German Embassy wrote the following:

Article 10 para 1 - in connection with Art. 5 para 2, 2nd sentence - of the Directive 2004/38/EC "on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States" rules that family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State are only exempted from the visa requirement, if they are in possession of a document called "Residence card of a family member of a Union Citizen".

Thus, the Irish Garda Card meets according to the Irish Authorities the criteria of such a document, if the valid residence card shows the stamp "4 EUFAM". The "4" Stamp does not fulfill these requirements.

As you might see, it is not the Embassy's decision to grant "4 EUFAM" stamps only to family members of non-European spouses who are married to non-Irish Union citizens.

I can therefore only advise that you contact the Irish Officials on this matter

We have traveled to Germany 5 times in the last 3 years and my husband has had to apply for a Schengen visa each time. Same rigmarole each time (Flight & hotel bookings, health insurance, employment letters, bank statements, passports, marriage cert etc.) as well as 2 appointments with the Embassy to submit application and pickup passport with visa. Each time getting issued with a Single Entry Schengen visa for the exact duration of stay. Similar experiences when traveling to France and Sweden although both of those Embassy allowed for longer duration of visas.

We have not risked trying to travel without visas as all the Embassy Websites clearly state Visas are required for Stamp4 holders, as do Embassy Staff, as do airline staff. Not sure where else to take it now

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:04 pm

Is it correct that you are Irish and your husband has stamp 4? And so you have to apply for a reentry permit for Ireland each time he wants to leave Ireland?

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:06 pm

Yes I am Irish and my husband has a Stamp 4. He applied for a Re-Entry visa upon grant of Stamp4. The Re-entry visa was granted for the duration of the Stamp4 so he does not need to apply for one each time (usual case for Re-entry visas).

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:11 pm

You might want to just try some visa-free travel. Go to Germany for a weekend, or even for a day.

I do not think you will have a problem. The German border police are a lot more professional then the embassy staff seem to be.

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:32 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:You might want to just try some visa-free travel. Go to Germany for a weekend, or even for a day.

I do not think you will have a problem. The German border police are a lot more professional then the embassy staff seem to be.

I don't know. Every time we've visited Germany the Airport Immigration Officers have searched the passport for a valid current Schengen Visa. Each time on the opposite page to that visa, they have stamped for Entry. Same procedure for Exiting the country. We've had the same experience when visiting Sweden, Greece, France, Switzerland and Spain on Schengen Visas issued by Germany/France/Sweden.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:41 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:You might want to just try some visa-free travel.

Obviously they need a visa so why are you suggesting them to try without? Article 5(4).

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:44 pm

86ti wrote:Obviously they need a visa so why are you suggesting them to try without? Article 5(4).

Hi 86ti,

why should they need a visa? Exactly what you quote:

Article 5, Section 4 of 2004/38/EC:

Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.

sais that they can also "prove by other means" that they do not need one...

...or am I misunderstanding this part?

Regards, Christian

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:51 pm

Absolutely. They are very professional and check carefully.

If you do not have a visa, then you will have to prove that you are married (marriage certificate) and that you are travelling together (two passports with associated people).

I talked with officers of the Bundespolezi (the border police) at a German airport. They pointed out that my wife would not need a visa if she was travelling with me. (I should say I have not tried it entering Germany, but that is for lack of opportunity rather than becuase I anticipate a problem).

My wife and I flew to Dublin without a visa. After much blosoming of the peacock feathers by the Guadia, "my colleage says I should not let your wife enter", they did in fact let her enter and were quite aware of the their legal responsibilites (when pointed out to them). We then had a nice few hours poking around Dublin before flying home.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:57 pm

How do you get on an airplane/ship/etc.? For the carrier the visa requirement is still there.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:04 pm

ca.funke wrote:Article 5, Section 4 of 2004/38/EC:

Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movementand residence.

I do not think that it says that you do not need a visa (see highlighted text). The part just says that, should you not have the required documents, you may be able to enter if you can proof your relationship by other means. Personally, I am still wondering what situations were anticipated by the makers of the directive.

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:07 pm

86ti wrote:How do you get on an airplane/ship/etc.? For the carrier the visa requirement is still there.

Nobody checked when we flew to Dublin. Nobody checked when we flew back to the UK.

Many airlines do not care. They seem to care only that the name on the passport matches that on the boarding card.

I am just saying that I have done it, and it worked smoothly. And that the German border police told me it would be no problem to enter.

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:23 pm

86ti wrote:I do not think that it says that you do not need a visa (see highlighted text). The part just says that, should you not have the required documents, you may be able to enter if you can proof your relationship by other means. Personally, I am still wondering what situations were anticipated by the makers of the directive.

The Directive requirements come directly from the ECJ decision of MRAX, which is very clearly written.

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:24 pm

86ti wrote:...The part just says that, should you not have the required documents, you may be able to enter if you can proof your relationship by other means. Personally, I am still wondering what situations were anticipated by the makers of the directive.

I think it doesnÂ´t matter what they anticipated. What matters is that itÂ´s a law as written.

Thus, I wouldnÂ´t hesitate to travel in the following mode:

both passports
marriage certificate
the law, needed passages highlited with a marker
- in english, the language of the country of departure and the language of the country of arrival

In this setup I would arrive at the departure airport well in time. Under no circumstances would I leave the counter if I was told to leave - I would discuss and ultimately declare that I wonÂ´t leave unless arrested by police. (The policemen can later be used as witnesses). Then sue the airline.

I think, given enough time and persistence at the airport, this hurdle should be no problem.

On arrival you have all time in the world to discuss...

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:12 pm

It is quite difficult trying to convincing those immigration officer at Dublin that you can enter visa free.

I experienced the same difficulty when i came with my sister. The stupid embassy were asking me for so much unnecessary document that i decided it will be less of an hassle traveling without a visa.

On arrival at the immigration officer's desk, he asked me for my Visa, and i explained to him that i didn't have one. He then told me that i know the consequences of not having a visa is deportation.

I brought his attention to MRAX and the directive and the fact that i am under 21 and dependent on my sister. He said to me under Irish Law, i am suppose to obtain a visa, i told him that EU law prevails over national law and that i will sue if he sends me back to the UK. My sister was nervous , but i told her to stay calm. I eventually request to speak to his superior. A softly spoken gentleman came out, whom i explained the situation to . He left me and said he is going to make phone calls.

We finally prevailed after 1 hour, he stamped my passport and affixed an entry visa, and advised me he is only letting me in on compassionate grounds, which i firmly rejected.

I subsequently gathered they are putting visa warning stamp on peoples passport, something that was never done to me fortunately.

If you are not a fighter and prepared to quote these laws, i will not advise one to travel this way as it can be quite an intimidating experience.

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:14 am

As my husband has a Stamp4 we've never experienced the problem coming in to Dublin. But on all flights out of Dublin (mainly Aer Lingus & Ryanair), staff have been very particular in searching for Visas. Ryanair will not let you board the plane out of Dublin now unless you have firstly gone to the Visa desk to get a stamp to say your passport has been checked and that you are legal to fly. AerLingus do this check at the boarding gate, and each time have checked for the Visa, and not just matching name on Boarding Card. How much success we'd have convincing the Airline I don't know. Add to that the fact that if they called the Embassy to find out, they'd most certainly agree that a visa was required.

If anyone else who has a Spouse visa issued under National Law (not EU4FAM or EU Family Permit) has traveled successfully without a visa to a Schengen Country, I'd love to hear your experiences.

I would be willing to book a cheap flight to somewhere to test this theory, but the fact that all Embassies I've asked (German, Swedish, French) as well as Solvit disagree that the Directive/2004/38/EC provides for spouses of EU citizens who have do not hold an EU Family Permit, I am less than hopeful!

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:22 am

scrudu wrote: If anyone else who has a Spouse visa issued under National Law (not EU4FAM or EU Family Permit) has traveled successfully without a visa to a Schengen Country, I'd love to hear your experiences.

My wife does not have a EU-law Residence Card.

scrudu wrote:I would be willing to book a cheap flight to somewhere to test this theory, but the fact that all Embassies I've asked (German, Swedish, French) as well as Solvit disagree that the Directive/2004/38/EC provides for spouses of EU citizens who have do not hold an EU Family Permit, I am less than hopeful!

Remember there are two questions addressed by the Directive. First is does the person need a visa, especially when they have a Residence Card? Second is, if a non-EU family member does not have a needed visa, how are they handled at the border? These are separate issues with different answers.

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Non-eu citizen travel to France or Italy with Irish husband

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