Switzerland, 2004/38/EC, and the associated registration

Hi all,

I have a question regarding Switzerland. I know they are not in the EU and not even in the EEA, but still they are somehow associated through some bilateral contracts (Swiss - EU).

One of the above contracts stipulates that EU-citizens can move to Switzerland, and that they can also bring their family members.

I wonder which is the actual law that regulates how this should be handled in practice.

Reason for wondering:

I (German/Belgian) moved to Switzerland with my Lebanese wife. We had no factual problems, but the following still annoys me:

• Upon registering in the town-hall myself, I had to pay CHF 80
• My wife was asked to apply for an entry visa with the Swiss embassy in the country where we lived before. (Belgium) - The embassy asked for EUR 65.
• Soon came a bill from the foreigner's office in our local area (Kanton Zürich), asking for a handling-fee from their side - CHF 97
• When my wife registers, she will have to pay CHF 80 as well...

Thus, in order to get registered, we paid four fees...

...if 2004/38/EC applied, the fees from the embassy and the foreigner's office would have been illegal (only allowed to charge what a local would have to pay). Also demanding an entry-visa would have been illegal in the first place.

Therefore I'd love to read the actual law, but I don't know which one applies...

Regards from Zürich,
Christian

Maybe you can get some information from here http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/de/home/the ... _-_eu.html

Hi 86ti,

thanks for that, however they're just talking about the rights the treaty gives you.

What I am looking for is the text in full, to be able to assess if the fees charged were legal, or if I have grounds to ask them back.

I googled "freizügigkeitsabkommen" together with "gesetzestext", "voller text", "text"... and more...

I just can't find it.

Thanks for your help anyway

Rgds, Christian

What about http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/i1/0.142.112.681.de.pdf ?

86ti wrote:What about http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/i1/0.142.112.681.de.pdf ?

OMG - thank you so much - that's exactly what I was looking for !!! :)

I love the Swiss. This is the law as of 1. Juni 2009 and it is already up.

I think there is a version in English from the EU as well, though I can not find it right now.

What was the 80CHF that you paid exactly for? Do swiss people need to pay it when they register?

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:What was the 80CHF that you paid exactly for? Do swiss people need to pay it when they register?

It was for me (EU) to register in the local town-hall as living here. At the same time this gives you a workpermit.

Am trying to establish at present if Swiss people have to pay it too.

In case they don't have to pay (or less), I know this would be illegal according to 2004/38/EC. Didn't have the time yet to investigate if the same would apply here? Do you happen to know?

Sorry I do not know. I have visited Switzerland but never had to deal with anything more than a disinterested (or even downright board) border guard.

To answer your question, no Swiss don't have to pay anything by regsiering in the census office (town hall)

However, The Swiss embassy in Holland where asking me to pay for my wife for the new Schengen visa Euro 60.00. Same embassy two years earlier gave her the Swiss visa with no charge.

I did not have had to pay the French for for any of their visas. (Shorth and long)

I think the Swiss authorities are simply overwhelmed with all the new regulations and are completely confused.

Give'em 10 years, it will go better...

HeadsUp

caribbeangeorge,

Are you or your partner an EU citizen?

I am Swiss, my wife is Russian, my son is both

86ti wrote:What about http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/i1/0.142.112.681.de.pdf ?

OK, had some time to read this, and I'm thrilled to learn that (if I'm right) I'll sue the Swiss Federation soon (just to get my fees back)

Is the law available in English anywhere, so more people can get involved?

In the Annex, Article 2, point 3 sais:

Die Erteilung und Verlängerung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis oder Sonderbescheinigung für die Staatsangehörigen der Vertragsparteien erfolgen kostenlos oder gegen Entrichtung eines Betrags, der die Ausstellungsgebühr für Personalausweise von Inländern nicht übersteigen darf. Die Vertragsparteien treffen alle erforderlichen Massnahmen, um die Formalitäten und Verfahren für die Beschaffung dieser Dokumente so weit wie möglich zu vereinfachen.

As such I have to find out how much Swiss people would have to pay for a national ID-card. If the ID is less that the CHF 80 I had to pay, the difference would be illegal, but this remains to be established.

Now to the interesting bit: Article 3 talks about Family-Members. Here point 3 sais:

Für die Erteilung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis für Familienangehörige eines Staatsangehörigen einer Vertragspartei dürfen die Vertragsparteien nur folgende Unterlagen verlangen:
a) die Ausweise, mit denen sie in ihr Hoheitsgebiet eingereist sind;
b) eine von der zuständigen Behörde des Heimat- oder Herkunftsstaats ausgestellte Bescheinigung, in der das Verwandtschaftsverhältnis bestätigt wird;
c) für Personen, denen Unterhalt gewährt wird, eine von der zuständigen Behörde des Heimat- oder Herkunftsstaats ausgestellte Bescheinigung, in der bestätigt wird, dass die in Absatz 1 genannte Person ihnen Unterhalt gewährt oder sie in diesem Staat mit ihr in einer häuslichen Gemeinschaft leben.

from a) I can deduct, that it is illegal to insist on an entry-visa: My wife had a valid Belgian residence-card, which allowed her to enter the Swiss Federation. As such, this should have been accepted to issue the residence-permit, without any further formalities.

b) we have a marriage-certificate

c) not applicable

Can anyone tell me if the above is correct?

Regards from Zürich, Christian

Here you'll find what you're looking for:
http://www.schweizerpass.admin.ch/pass ... keit.html [/url]

Here you'll find what you're looking for:
http://www.schweizerpass.admin.ch/pass ... keit.html

This is what is on the main page of eda.ch

Einreise in die Schweiz
Ausländische Staatsangehörige, die in die Schweiz kommen möchten, müssen die Einreise- und Zollbestimmungen beachten. Sie benötigen in jedem Fall ein von der Schweiz anerkanntes gültiges Reisedokument. In bestimmten Fällen ist zudem ein Visum erforderlich.

Detaillierte Auskünfte erteilen das Bundesamt für Migration (BFM), die Eidgenössische Zollverwaltung, die schweizerischen Auslandvertretungen und die zuständigen kantonalen Behörden.

in short,
In any case you need a valid travel document, under certain circumstances a entry visa could be required.

This is the reply from my embassy to return HOME (for me wife)

3 ausgefüllte Visaformulare: mit Angabe der zukünftigen Adresse in der Schweiz
3 Kopien des gültigen Russischen Reisepasses Ihrer Ehefrau
3 Kopien der Aufenthaltsbewilligung für die Niederländischen Antillen
3 Kopien Ihres Schweizer Reisepasses
3 Kopien der Heiratsurkunde.

Sollten Sie noch nicht so weit sein, dass Sie in die Schweiz zurückkehren können, benötige ich für ein Touristenvisum für Ihre Ehefrau

1 Visumformular ausgefüllt
den Original Reisepass Ihrer Ehefrau
1 Passfoto
1 Fotokopie der Aufenthaltsbewilligung.

Die Gebühr beträgt Euro 60.00 für das Visum sowie die Bankspesen. Am besten ist es, wenn Sie eine Überweisung vornehmen.

Again in short
3 filled visa applications, with the address of final residence in CH
3 copies of the Russian passport of my wife
3 copies of the current residence permit
3 copies of my passport
3 copies of the marriage certificate

Euro 60,00 for the visa fee


As you can see they are asking for (non-refundable) payment, even it is supposed to be free. They are simply not aware of the new regulations and rules.

In your case, she was living within the EU AND Schengen, no way they can ask for a visa, that makes no sense and questions for then Schengen in first place.

I ask once the French Embassy in Zurich what they need for a visa Long de sejour, I have been told the L-Residence from CH permit of my wife is enough. So it should be enough to provide the residence permit/ ID from Belgium.

But again, since Schengen confusion rules...

Also google for weisungen-visa-20090518-d.pdf
check for 135.3 Visum für den längerfristigen Aufenthalt oder nationales Visum until 135.22

Do third country nationals who are members of the family of an EU citizen require entry visas? Do they have the right to obtain one?

Member States may require third country family members moving with or joining an EU citizen to whom the Directive applies to have an entry visa. Such family members have not only the right to enter the territory of the Member State, but also the right to obtain an entry visa. This distinguishes them from other third country nationals, who have no such right.

Source:

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAct ... anguage=en

86ti wrote:What about http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/i1/0.142.112.681.de.pdf ?

Hi all,

I had a close look again today.

Article 3, section 3:

(3) Für die Erteilung der Aufenthaltserlaubnis für Familienangehörige eines Staatsangehörigen einer Vertragspartei dürfen die Vertragsparteien nur folgende Unterlagen verlangen:
a) die Ausweise, mit denen sie in ihr Hoheitsgebiet eingereist sind;
b) eine von der zuständigen Behörde des Heimat- oder Herkunftsstaats ausgestellte Bescheinigung, in der das Verwandtschaftsverhältnis bestätigt wird;
c) für Personen, denen Unterhalt gewährt wird, eine von der zuständigen Behörde des Heimat- oder Herkunftsstaats ausgestellte Bescheinigung, in der bestätigt wird, dass die in Absatz 1 genannte Person ihnen Unterhalt gewährt oder sie in diesem Staat mit ihr in einer häuslichen Gemeinschaft leben.

The passages I highlighted in English (my simplified translation, wonder if there is an official English version?):

In order to issue a residence-permit for family-members (...) all the host-state can ask for is:

• the papers with which the host-state was entered
• an official document evidencing the family-relation.

As such I hoped to get a Swiss residence permit by showing

• both our passports AND
• my wife´s Belgian residence-card (which allows entry into Switzerland) AND
• our marriage certificate

This was rejected, my wife was asked to apply for an entry-visa for Switzerland in the country where she is currently officially resident. Thus we had to apply with the Swiss embassy in Belgium, although she was in Switzerland already.

Just wondering if this procedure was legal... If it wasn´t I´m considering to claim the fees back...

Any ideas / remarks?

ca.funke wrote:

Just wondering if this procedure was legal... If it wasn´t I´m considering to claim the fees back...

Any ideas / remarks?

On the face of things, it is obviously illegal. Then again these EEA countries, uses the defense that they are not members of the EU and hence not bound by it laws.

It is quite naughty of them to demand that she applies for an entry visa, when she has a legal right to enter with the document she already had.

If they are bound by all the contents of directive 2004/38EC, then they are obviously doing something illegal. The directive makes provision for people who enter without visa or the right documentation, which does not require them having to reapply from the country the were previously resident. It states all necessary provision should be made for them to obtain the necessary documents.

It is absolutely unreasonable for them such harsh demands.

Obie wrote:...Then again these EEA countries, uses the defense that they are not members of the EU and hence not bound by it laws...

Hi Obie,

good to hear from you,

I should have mentioned that the above law is titled "Treaty between the EU and Switzerland concerning the freedom of movement".

As such the Swiss are bound by it, actually it only exists specifically for Switzerland because they are not in the EU.

Regards, Christian

ca.funke wrote:
Hi Obie,

good to hear from you,

I should have mentioned that the above law is titled "Treaty between the EU and Switzerland concerning the freedom of movement".

As such the Swiss are bound by it, actually it only exists specifically for Switzerland because they are not in the EU.

Regards, Christian

It is always a pleasure hearing from you Christian.

Hope you are having fun in Zurich.

Regarding your point- If it is a legally binding documents signed by the EU and Switzerland, then they are legally bound by all it contents, and you certainly can sue them for damages or compensation for any illegal cost you incurred as a result of their poor implementation of a Law they are legally bounded by.

I wish you all the best in you rightful pursuit of them

I will like to assume that at their worst, they are better than the UK and Ireland in regards to treatment of EEA nationals and their family members. Would that be a correct assumption and assesment.

I have just been looking at this, and it says family member of EEA national who have not been permanently resident in another EEA country (Not lawfully resident), will be subject to national entry rules. Could this explain their actions.

Surely, this has got to be a distorted interpretation of the rules they signed up to.


http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/the ... tml#a_0021

Obie wrote:...family member of EEA national who have not been permanently resident in another EEA country (Not lawfully resident), will be subject to national entry rules...

Sounds like the Swiss version of Metock to me.

For my case this is irrelevant, as we were resident in 2 other EU/EFTA countries before.

ca.funke wrote:

Obie wrote:...family member of EEA national who have not been permanently resident in another EEA country (Not lawfully resident), will be subject to national entry rules...

Sounds like the Swiss version of Metock to me.

For my case this is irrelevant, as we were resident in 2 other EU/EFTA countries before.

I understand you were lawfully resident in two previous member states. What i was concerned about was the Permanent resident bit that they specifically mentioned. Could it be that they don't consider a five years resident card to be permanent resident status?