ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

British citizen, pakistani wife moving to europe

Immigration to European countries, don't post UK or Ireland related topics!

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:36 pm

Rasaf , here is the details for the Consulate in Karachi.
The don't process any visa. The processing gets done in Tehran Iran.

http://www.embassiesabroad.com/embassie ... stan#11801


This is the website for the Embassy in Tehran.

They never state the D category visa we discussed to you. Have a chat with the consulate officials , inform them about you status as EEA national and the fact that you and your spouse would like to travel to Ireland under Article 5 of Directive 2004/38EC ,and that you would be pleased if they can provide you the appropriate application form to fill to fill for the visa.
I suspect you probably might need to come to Ireland and establish some minimal routes, but give it a go first and see what they say.
http://www.embassyofireland.org/home/in ... x?id=46374

Rasaf like the previous contributor states, the Irish Immigration are not particulary friendly and forthcoming in their dealing, but ultimately you will prevail as it is your right to live with your non-EEA family member wherever you see fit in the community.

Have a read at the directive which makes provision for the rights we have been explaining to you.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:EN:PDF
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Rasaf
Newbie
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:54 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, UK

Post by Rasaf » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:37 am

Obie wrote:Rasaf , here is the details for the Consulate in Karachi.
The don't process any visa. The processing gets done in Tehran Iran.

http://www.embassiesabroad.com/embassie ... stan#11801


This is the website for the Embassy in Tehran.

They never state the D category visa we discussed to you. Have a chat with the consulate officials , inform them about you status as EEA national and the fact that you and your spouse would like to travel to Ireland under Article 5 of Directive 2004/38EC ,and that you would be pleased if they can provide you the appropriate application form to fill to fill for the visa.
I suspect you probably might need to come to Ireland and establish some minimal routes, but give it a go first and see what they say.
http://www.embassyofireland.org/home/in ... x?id=46374

Rasaf like the previous contributor states, the Irish Immigration are not particulary friendly and forthcoming in their dealing, but ultimately you will prevail as it is your right to live with your non-EEA family member wherever you see fit in the community.

Have a read at the directive which makes provision for the rights we have been explaining to you.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:EN:PDF

Obie thanks for the info.

Having read other posts, I came across this
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:The non-EU family member(s) should have an entry visa, but it should be issued at no cost, as soon as possible, and on the basis of an accelerated process by the Embassy. You do not need to show any funds or proof that you have a job. They should take a maximum of 4 weeks to issue the visa."
in this post http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=41309

here it mentions that it is not required to have a Job or to show Funds. however going through the links I have come across the www.inis.gov.ie website, here they mention
INIS.gov.ie wrote: •A detailed bank statement, showing sufficient funds, and covering the immediate 6 month period prior to submitting a visa application should be submitted.
They also mention
INIS.gov.ie wrote:•Evidence that the EU Citizen spouse is exercising their EU Treaty Rights by being employed/self employed in the State or engaged in a valid vocational training programme or has sufficient financial resources and comprehensive sickness insurance cover.
could someone please confirm what documents I would need to supply. would this list be differnt if we were both flying in to Ireland from Pakistan.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:47 am

Rasaf. If you look at the directive, Article five states that you and your wife would be allowed to enter for a period of three months without any formalities attached whatsoever. This area covers the Visa bit.

The treaty rights deals with after the 3 months period. Then you have to be exercising treaty in the capacity stated.

The 6 months statement is not stated in the directive, but the Irish states that they will need to ensure you have enough resources include medical insurance to ensure your wife doesn't become a burden on the state resources.

I will suggest you work on the bank statement and a medical insurance, even though directive states you only need to produce your passport and evidence of Relationship (Marriage Certificate), in order to obtain the Visa.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Rasaf
Newbie
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:54 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, UK

Post by Rasaf » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:50 am

thanks for clearing that up Obie, would it have to be six months, would three not be enough, and how much would be sufficient

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:54 am

Rasaf wrote:thanks for clearing that up Obie, would it have to be six months, would three be enough,
I think three months will suffice, provided there is adequate funds going into the account over that three months period. As opposed to a lump sum deposited and a statement requested subsequently and forwarded.

To be honest with you, you should not have to provide such information. It is because you are outside the community area, that is why they are imposing those crazy requirements.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Rasaf
Newbie
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:54 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, UK

Post by Rasaf » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:59 am

Obie wrote:
Rasaf wrote:thanks for clearing that up Obie, would it have to be six months, would three be enough,
I think three months will suffice, provided there is adequate funds going into the account over that three months period. As opposed to a lump sum deposited and a statement requested subsequently and forwarded.

To be honest with you, you should not have to provide such information. It is because you are outside the community area, that is why they are imposing those crazy requirements.
do you think 2 or 3 thousand would be enough. also would I be able to apply while im in the UK,

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:08 am

Rasaf wrote:
Obie wrote:
Rasaf wrote:thanks for clearing that up Obie, would it have to be six months, would three be enough,
I think three months will suffice, provided there is adequate funds going into the account over that three months period. As opposed to a lump sum deposited and a statement requested subsequently and forwarded.

To be honest with you, you should not have to provide such information. It is because you are outside the community area, that is why they are imposing those crazy requirements.
do you think 2 or 3 thousand would be enough. also would I be able to apply while im in the UK,
You can't apply for it in the UK , as she is not there. You have to apply for it together in Pakistan or you come and set few things up in Ireland and then get her to make the application from Pakistan, on the basis she is coming to meet her spouse in Ireland.

I think 3k sounds alright. Remember they are not supposed to impose any fixed amount on you.

Have you got any plans in regards to what capacity you intend to exercise your treaty rights in Ireland?

Mate i'm off to bed now, but if you have any query, drop us a note or PM me and i will reply in the morning.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Rasaf
Newbie
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:54 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, UK

Post by Rasaf » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:26 pm

Obie wrote:You can't apply for it in the UK , as she is not there. You have to apply for it together in Pakistan or you come and set few things up in Ireland and then get her to make the application from Pakistan, on the basis she is coming to meet her spouse in Ireland.

I think 3k sounds alright. Remember they are not supposed to impose any fixed amount on you.

Have you got any plans in regards to what capacity you intend to exercise your treaty rights in Ireland?

Mate i'm off to bed now, but if you have any query, drop us a note or PM me and i will reply in the morning.
OK that clears it up a bit, what I did mean was she applies for the visa in pakistan while im in th UK and then we both fly there, but I guess that I will either have to be in Ireland or with her in Pakistan.

So If I was to go to Ireland what exactly would I have to setup.

I intend to work to exercise my treaty rights. Just out of curiosity what are the other ways that treaty rights can be exercised.

Regarding the health insurance we would be required to get it after we are both in Ireland.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:37 pm

Rasaf wrote: but I guess that I will either have to be in Ireland or with her in Pakistan.
That is perfectly correct
Rasaf wrote:So If I was to go to Ireland what exactly would I have to setup.
Accomodation, probably medical insurance if you don't have a job yet or not involved in Self-Employment activities.
Rasaf wrote:I intend to work to exercise my treaty rights. Just out of curiosity what are the other ways that treaty rights can be exercised.
You can exercise a treaty right, as self-employed, employed, Student or self sufficient. However if you want to return to the UK in six months, which you obviously want, you will have to either be Employed or Self employed.
Rasaf wrote:Regarding the health insurance we would be required to get it after we are both in Ireland.
They normally require it, but i suspect you might be able to get away with it if you can show adequate resource.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Rasaf
Newbie
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:54 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, UK

Post by Rasaf » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:56 pm

Obie wrote: Accomodation, probably medical insurance if you don't have a job yet or not involved in Self-Employment activities.
OK but then wouldnt that mean I would have to supply a tennancy agreement to show that.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:51 pm

No you don't necessarily need a tenancy agreement. I just thought you might want to arrange accommodation before she arrives. Obviously you are going to need that, aren't you.

For the first three months you don't necessarily need Tenancy agreement.

You only need to show evidence of Relationship eg (marriage Certificate), and proof of EEA nationality (Passport).

The Irish usually ask people to provide health insurance and evidence they can sustain themselves during that three month.

After the three months, you will need a tenancy agreement to apply for a resident card. You will also need to show you are exercising treaty rights in the capacity i mentioned earlier.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Wanderer
Diamond Member
Posts: 10511
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:46 pm
Ireland

Post by Wanderer » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:33 am

The more I read this thread the more I wonder if the OP's plan could be construed as significantly contriving to frustrate UK immigration rules which on the face of it - it is.

But the EEA rules are there, nothing illegal is being done.

I suppose the HO could argue the contrary based on intent?

I dunno - what do others think?
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

fysicus
Senior Member
Posts: 767
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 9:04 am
Location: England
Netherlands

Post by fysicus » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:50 am

there is actually jurisdiction from the European Court of Justice on this matter, but I don't know the reference to it.
In summary: it explicitly says that the intentions of a citizen are immaterial and only his actual behaviour may be taken into account.
So as long as everything you do is legal, you're fine!

Ben
Diamond Member
Posts: 2685
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:33 pm
Location: Elsewhere
Contact:

Post by Ben » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:27 am

Wanderer wrote:The more I read this thread the more I wonder if the OP's plan could be construed as significantly contriving to frustrate UK immigration rules which on the face of it - it is.

But the EEA rules are there, nothing illegal is being done.

I suppose the HO could argue the contrary based on intent?

I dunno - what do others think?
EUN2.14 Can family members of British citizens qualify for an EEA family permit? ('Surinder Singh' cases) wrote:It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State was to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he/ she could come back to the UK with his/ her family members under EC law.
I am no longer posting publicly on this website - PM me if needed.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:01 am

Wanderer wrote:The more I read this thread the more I wonder if the OP's plan could be construed as significantly contriving to frustrate UK immigration rules which on the face of it - it is.

But the EEA rules are there, nothing illegal is being done.

I suppose the HO could argue the contrary based on intent?

I dunno - what do others think?
I beg to differ with your argument.

I don't think i would have engaged the OP if i thought he was seeking to abuse any community rules.

In Akrich, the Singh ruling was reiterated in paragraph 55 and 56, and subsequently adopted in UK immigration rule as perfectly explained and provided by Ben, that it doesn't matter whether or not the purpose of the movement was to over ride national rule. So long as the economic activity undertaken in the other member state was genuine.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 09:EN:HTML

The argument could be constructed in the opposite direction- that it is national rules that is frustrating the OP.

In the above mentioned member state, one can get married at age 16 with parental consent and 18 without.

The OP is a British National, and possibly a tax payer, why should he not be able to settle in him home country with his wife, until she is 21.

So long as the 19 year old wife is of a sound mind and wasn't forced into matrimonial activities/contract, or any illegal activity, or marriage of convenience, i see no reason why she should not be allowed in, or have to wait for 2 year to live with his spouse.
Last edited by Obie on Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Rozen
Diamond Member
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: Nederland

Post by Rozen » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:17 am

I think Benifa's link says it all.... 8)

Wanderer
Diamond Member
Posts: 10511
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:46 pm
Ireland

Post by Wanderer » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:28 pm

I;m not saying I have an absolute opinion or argument here - I just wonder if the HO would take that view - and the small bit of research I did just now says they have (and mostly failed).

I have read somewhere (can;t find the link now) that the UK immigration rules have (or had) a section with the very opposite view - that's stuck in my mind - better find link or assume I dreamt it....
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

Rozen
Diamond Member
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: Nederland

Post by Rozen » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:45 pm

Wanderer wrote:I have read somewhere (can;t find the link now) that the UK immigration rules have (or had) a section with the very opposite view - that's stuck in my mind - better find link or assume I dreamt it....
You didn't dream it! I've also seen it somewhere before, and when I first saw your post I looked for it, but I just couldn't find it.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:11 pm

Could it be a pigment of your imagination? I have been doing a search for the past 2 hours on this, everything that is coming up seem to be to the contrary.

I am nevertheless hopeful that i might find it eventually.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Rozen
Diamond Member
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:09 pm
Location: Nederland

Post by Rozen » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:17 pm

Obie wrote:Could it be a pigment of your imagination? I have been doing a search for the past 2 hours on this, everything that is coming up seem to be to the contrary.

I am nevertheless hopeful that i might find it eventually.
It really was there, Obie! But hey, fact has been known to be stranger than fiction, so who knows for sure? :lol:

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:37 pm

Wanderer wrote:I;m not saying I have an absolute opinion or argument here - I just wonder if the HO would take that view
...
I am sure you aren't.

The OP can only hope.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Wanderer
Diamond Member
Posts: 10511
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:46 pm
Ireland

Post by Wanderer » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:30 pm

I found the quoted text but not the link - I know I linked it somewhere but for now here's the text;
In general, where a non EEA spouse of a UK national is seeking to enter the UK for the purposes of living with his or her spouse, the ordinary immigration rules (as detailed above) will apply, even though the UK is part of the EEA. However, a small number of people may take advantage of the case of Surinder Singh [1992 3 All ER 798] which applies the rules relating to spouses of EEA nationals to non-EEA spouses of UK nationals. This is particularly important when it comes to marriage breakdown (see below). The ECJ held that, where a British citizen has been exercising a right to free movement in another EU state, the spouse of that British citizen will retain their rights to benefit from EU law on moving to the UK. Regulation 11 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2000 ("the Regulations") now therefore states that the spouse of a British citizen will be treated in this way, namely in the same way as a family member of an EEA national, if:



After leaving the UK, the British citizen resided in an EEA country and was employed there or was established there as a self-employed person;


The British citizen did not leave the UK in order to enable his family member to acquire rights under the Regulations and therefore evade the ordinary immigration law;


On returning to the UK, the British citizen would, if he or she were an EEA national, be a "qualified person", namely exercising Treaty rights, under the EEA Regulations; and


The marriage took place and the parties lived together in an EEA country before the British citizen returned to the UK.
From an early post of mine;

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 0f3257f8de
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

Ben
Diamond Member
Posts: 2685
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:33 pm
Location: Elsewhere
Contact:

Post by Ben » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:35 pm

Wanderer wrote:I found the quoted text but not the link - I know I linked it somewhere but for now here's the text;
In general, where a non EEA spouse of a UK national is seeking to enter the UK for the purposes of living with his or her spouse, the ordinary immigration rules (as detailed above) will apply, even though the UK is part of the EEA. However, a small number of people may take advantage of the case of Surinder Singh [1992 3 All ER 798] which applies the rules relating to spouses of EEA nationals to non-EEA spouses of UK nationals. This is particularly important when it comes to marriage breakdown (see below). The ECJ held that, where a British citizen has been exercising a right to free movement in another EU state, the spouse of that British citizen will retain their rights to benefit from EU law on moving to the UK. Regulation 11 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2000 ("the Regulations") now therefore states that the spouse of a British citizen will be treated in this way, namely in the same way as a family member of an EEA national, if:



After leaving the UK, the British citizen resided in an EEA country and was employed there or was established there as a self-employed person;


The British citizen did not leave the UK in order to enable his family member to acquire rights under the Regulations and therefore evade the ordinary immigration law;


On returning to the UK, the British citizen would, if he or she were an EEA national, be a "qualified person", namely exercising Treaty rights, under the EEA Regulations; and


The marriage took place and the parties lived together in an EEA country before the British citizen returned to the UK.
From an early post of mine;

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 0f3257f8de
http://nt4992.vs.netbenefit.com/article ... icleid=163
I am no longer posting publicly on this website - PM me if needed.

Obie
Moderator
Posts: 15156
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:06 am
Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Post by Obie » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:51 pm

Wanderer wrote:

The British citizen did not leave the UK in order to enable his family member to acquire rights under the Regulations and therefore evade the ordinary immigration law;
This might be some phoney/spurious interpretation that was unveiled after the 1992 Ruling perhaps.

But it was stated in 2003 in Akrich ( Singh clarified )that, regardless of the intention that the EEA national had for exercising treaty rights in another member state, so long as the economic activity was genuine, that's all that matters.

Even though i don't agree with the ruling in its entirety, i however agreed with that paragraph.

The subsequent Jia and Metock ruling ironed things out better, in the controversial areas.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Rasaf
Newbie
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:54 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, UK

Non EU Spouse Visa requirements

Post by Rasaf » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:04 am

I sent an Email to the Irish Embassy in Pakistan yesterday asking for the requirements and have received a reply, quicker then I thought I would get it, 12 hours,

Here's the reply I got



From: IrishCons
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 5:36 AM
To: Rasaf
Subject: Re: Visa Information


Dear Sir

you would need to provide the following documents for spouse visa

1. Passport valid for minimum 12 months
2. Clear copy of Irish/EU national's passport
3. Marriage certificate - attested copy of urdu Nikahnama and original plus attested copies of English translation
4. For recent marriages and marriages where you have not yet resided together please give full account of relationship history - when and where you met, and show evidence of this such as visas, entry/exit stamps on passport of Irish/Eu national.
5. If you got married in Pakistan you have to show your entry and exit stamps to confirm the dates on the marriage certificate

The applicant has to apply on line and send two copies of the application form , 2 phtographs on white background and two sets of the above documents. The normal visa processing time is 4 weeks

Website for applying on line is www.visas.inis.gov.ie

Visa Section
Any way good news as they are not asking for any of the other documents as mentioned on the INIS.gov.ie website.

Locked
cron