4EUFam and EU wide travel - the complete guide

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:53 pm

microlab wrote:If I leave to work let`s say for 2 years outside EU would my wife loose her residence entitlement ?! I am sure there is a specific law in a case of prolonged absence,unfortunately could not find it.Any idea?!

For EU-citizens:

2004/38/EC wrote:Article 11
Validity of the residence card
1. The residence card provided for by Article 10(1) shall be
valid for five years from the date of issue or for the envisaged
period of residence of the Union citizen, if this period is less
than five years.
2. The validity of the residence card shall not be affected by
temporary absences not exceeding six months a year, or by
absences of a longer duration for compulsory military service
or by one absence of a maximum of 12 consecutive months
for important reasons such as pregnancy and childbirth, serious
illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another
Member State or a third country.

For their family-members:

2004/38/EC wrote:Article 16
General rule for Union citizens and their family members
1. Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous
period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be
subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.
2. Paragraph 1 shall apply also to family members who are
not nationals of a Member State and have legally resided with
the Union citizen in the host Member State for a continuous
period of five years.
3. Continuity of residence shall not be affected by temporary
absences not exceeding a total of six months a year, or by
absences of a longer duration for compulsory military service,
or by one absence of a maximum of 12 consecutive months
for important reasons such as pregnancy and childbirth, serious
illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another
Member State or a third country.
4. Once acquired, the right of permanent residence shall be
lost only through absence from the host Member State for a
period exceeding two consecutive years.

Which effectively means that the current residence-card would be no longer valid.

However, the entitlement to a new one would not be affected. (Provided 2004/38/EC remains in force)

microlab · Post by **microlab** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:00 pm

Thanks for that...

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:14 pm

Without a stretch of the imagination, this action is illegal.

Article 5
Right of entry

3. The host Member State shall not place an entry or exit
stamp in the passport of family members who are not nationals
of a Member State provided that they present the residence
card provided for in Article 10.

Even the Irish Authority, states this on the transposed version of the directive into their law. It is either the Officers are unaware or untrained about the rules, or the law is not worth the piece of paper it is written on.

I always have my misgivings about these incompetent , inept officials.

Irish Law is below.

Permission for Union citizens and qualifying family members to enter the State

(4) An immigration officer shall not, at the point of entry, place a stamp in the passport of a
qualifying family member who presents to the officer a valid residence card

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:45 pm

Obie wrote:...the law is not worth the piece of paper it is written on...

That's also my interpretation, actually.

Complaint to the commission: Either no reply or a reply stating that you are actually right... However no-one cares about that paper.

A petition to the parliament - reply: Actually you are right, and the commission will use fully its powers to rectify the situation. (That's the reply two years after the repeated and ongoing infringements of our rights have been registered)

Can anyone point out what more than a piece of paper 2004/38/EC is, unless your rights happen to be respected by chance, or you go to court all the time?

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:10 pm

microlab wrote:If I leave to work let`s say for 2 years outside EU would my wife loose her residence entitlement ?! I am sure there is a specific law in a case of prolonged absence,unfortunately could not find it.Any idea?!

I know this is an old thread, but I thought I would follow up.

I think it depends on a lot of things, and your question raises some interesting issues.

Does your wife go with you? Then yes, she would loose her present residence entitlement after being gone for 6 months (if in the first 5 years) or two years (if after she has PR).

If she stays living in the EU, then she might not loose her right of residence, especially if she already has PR. She would not loose it if you divorced, and I suspect you could come up with a pretty good argument for her not loosing it if you are just living in different countries...

Mercyknight · Post by **Mercyknight** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:47 pm

I hope I'm posting in the right place. It's related to the topic.

This is the situation. I am a British Citizen and I am married to a South African who has a residence permit in the UK. Can I travel to France without applying for the Schengen Visa?

I can't make head or tail of the ECC law regarding the matter...

If someone could enlighten me that'd be great!

Thanks in advance,

Ben

americanboy · Post by **americanboy** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:57 am

Mercyknight wrote:I hope I'm posting in the right place. It's related to the topic.

This is the situation. I am a British Citizen and I am married to a South African who has a residence permit in the UK. Can I travel to France without applying for the Schengen Visa?

I can't make head or tail of the ECC law regarding the matter...

If someone could enlighten me that'd be great!

Thanks in advance,

Ben

Hi To all here
Can any one give light to this?
1)Is stamp 4 or stamp 4EU FAM same.Does a spouse of Irish Citizen get a stamp4 or stamp 4EU FAM? As for visa free travel to EU coutries some embassies exclusively looks for Stamp 4 EU FAM? And can people with stamp4 together with their EU spouse travel visa free to the EU countries.
2) I have one more question as well,i.e how can one prove that his or her parents are dependent on him,so as to get a EEA family permit for parents.
Any answer to this will be appreciated.Thanks in advance and enjoy weekend.
2)

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:43 pm

Mercyknight wrote:I hope I'm posting in the right place. It's related to the topic.

This is the situation. I am a British Citizen and I am married to a South African who has a residence permit in the UK. Can I travel to France without applying for the Schengen Visa?

I can't make head or tail of the ECC law regarding the matter...

If someone could enlighten me that'd be great!

Thanks in advance,

Ben

Hi Mercyknight,

the answer coming a bit late, I hope itÂ´s in time for your trip:

Unfortunately youÂ´re not the only one who cannot make heads or tail of it. In specific the European Union cannot give clear answers to clear questions, nor do border guards deciding your individual case always decide the same in the same case... ItÂ´s a lottery.

As it stands, you are legally allowed to travel with your wife throughout all of the EU without applying for any visa. Also read >>here<<. However you risk having your trip/holiday/whatever seriously derailed by uninformed border-guards, who may send you back, regardless of your rights.

Good luck with your travels

Rgds, Christian

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:48 pm

americanboy wrote:Hi To all here
Can any one give light to this?
1)Is stamp 4 or stamp 4EU FAM same.Does a spouse of Irish Citizen get a stamp4 or stamp 4EU FAM? As for visa free travel to EU coutries some embassies exclusively looks for Stamp 4 EU FAM? And can people with stamp4 together with their EU spouse travel visa free to the EU countries.
2) I have one more question as well,i.e how can one prove that his or her parents are dependent on him,so as to get a EEA family permit for parents.
Any answer to this will be appreciated.Thanks in advance and enjoy weekend.
2)

Hi americanboy,

"Stamp 4" and "Stamp 4 EUFAM" differ quite significantly.

"Stamp 4" is the national Irish version of a residence-permit given to non-EU spouses of Irish citizens.

"Stamp 4 EUFAM" is the European version of a residence-permit given to non-EU spouses of EU citizens, excluding Irish citizens. (Hence EUFAM = EU-FAMily member)

Stamp 4 doesnÂ´t allow you to travel throughout the EU.

Stamp 4 EUFAM should allow travel throughout the EU, however in practice this doesnÂ´t always work.

Hope this info is practical for you.

Regards, Christian

americanboy · Post by **americanboy** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:41 pm

ca.funke wrote:
americanboy wrote:Hi To all here
Can any one give light to this?
1)Is stamp 4 or stamp 4EU FAM same.Does a spouse of Irish Citizen get a stamp4 or stamp 4EU FAM? As for visa free travel to EU coutries some embassies exclusively looks for Stamp 4 EU FAM? And can people with stamp4 together with their EU spouse travel visa free to the EU countries.
2) I have one more question as well,i.e how can one prove that his or her parents are dependent on him,so as to get a EEA family permit for parents.
Any answer to this will be appreciated.Thanks in advance and enjoy weekend.
2)
Hi americanboy,

"Stamp 4" and "Stamp 4 EUFAM" differ quite significantly.

"Stamp 4" is the national Irish version of a residence-permit given to non-EU spouses of Irish citizens.

"Stamp 4 EUFAM" is the European version of a residence-permit given to non-EU spouses of EU citizens, excluding Irish citizens. (Hence EUFAM = EU-FAMily member)

Stamp 4 doesnÂ´t allow you to travel throughout the EU.

Stamp 4 EUFAM should allow travel throughout the EU, however in practice this doesnÂ´t always work.

Hope this info is practical for you.

Regards, Christian

Thanks you are a Gem....

Xanadu · Post by **Xanadu** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:34 pm

What is the equivalent for Stamp 4 EUFAM for Irish residents? I am a non EU spouse of an Irish citizen and have a STAMP 4 which allows me to live and work in Ireland. Does it mean that I will have to apply for visas evrytime we want to visit any of the EU countries ?
Thanks

"Stamp 4 EUFAM" is the European version of a residence-permit given to non-EU spouses of EU citizens, excluding Irish citizens. (Hence EUFAM = EU-FAMily member)

Stamp 4 doesnÂ´t allow you to travel throughout the EU.

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:15 pm

Xanadu wrote:...Does it mean that I will have to apply for visas evrytime we want to visit any of the EU countries ?...

If you have to apply for a visa depends on how you interpret 2004/38/EC.

As far as some embassies are concerned, you will have to apply for a visa.

As far as the law is concerned, you MIGHT have to apply for a visa.

Sorry for being so unclear, but itÂ´s not me whoÂ´s unclear here, but the law itself.

As far as IÂ´m concerned, I think you DO NOT have to apply for any visa throughout the EU. Reasons here:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 335#247335

Rgds, Christian

Xanadu · Post by **Xanadu** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:30 pm

Thanks Christian for the prompt reply.
I went through the whole lot that you (and others) posted here, the primary thing being "holding a residence card".. and even then most had had difficulties in getting entry to some EU countries. I apparently don't hold any EU residence card except for the GNIB card which has a STAMP4 and that too I get only for a year at a time. So, if asked at a border to show my permanent residency based on being the spouse of an Irish citizen - what exactly can I show them

nothing much I am guessing

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:40 am

Xanadu wrote:...what exactly can I show them...

I know of several cases where the following mode of travel worked (as per the quoted link above):

Print a copy of >>2004/38/EC<< (in English + the language of the country where you want to travel to).

Highlight Article 5, Section 4 of 2004/38/EC (to make it easier for you at the border to make your point):

Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.

In order to "prove by other means" that you are "covered by the right of free movement", bring

your passports AND
your marriage-certificate

and off you go travelling visa-free.

However be prepared that this is not a smooth ride, as border-officials may be ignorant about that law and send you back. Obviously you can then sue the concerning state for compensation, but I guess thatÂ´s not what anyone would call a relaxing holiday.

Good luck.

asrpb · Post by **asrpb** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:29 pm

Hi All,

Just received a very Positive reply from Portuguese Embassy (Dublin). Thought I should update this thread for all of you in the same boat.

From: JosÃ© Pinto [mailto:jose.pinto@dublin.dgaccp.pt]
Sent: 14 July 2010 16:58
To: XYZ
Subject: Visiting Algarve/Albufeira for 1 week holiday

Dear Sir,

With reference to your e-mail of today, since you are holding a Stamp 4EUFam GNIB residence card and your EU spouse is accompanying you to Portugal, you do not need to obtain a Schengen Visa. Kindly make sure that you carry your original marriage certificate and the GNIB card. In case you intend travelling alone, then you need to obtain a visa and the information is available on our web site http://www.embassyportugal.ie

Thanks and regards,
JosÃ© do Carmo Pinto
Chancellor
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
De: XYZ@abc.ie
Enviada: quarta-feira, 14 de Julho de 2010 14:18
Para: embport@dublin.dgaccp.pt
Assunto: Visiting Algarve/Albufeira for 1 week holiday

Dear Sir/Madam,
I'm Non-EU National living and working in Ireland for last 8-9 years. I'm planning to visit Algarve/Albufeira for holidays (1 week) with my Wife and Son.
I'm holding Stamp4EUFam as my wife is an EU National.
I would like to know, if I need a Tourist visa to visit Portugal ? If yes, what document document do I require for it ?
Regards,
XYZ

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:01 pm

asrpb wrote:Hi All,

Just received a very Positive reply from Portuguese Embassy (Dublin). Thought I should update this thread for all of you in the same boat.

From: JosÃ© Pinto [mailto:jose.pinto@dublin.dgaccp.pt]
Sent: 14 July 2010 16:58
To: XYZ
Subject: Visiting Algarve/Albufeira for 1 week holiday

Dear Sir,

With reference to your e-mail of today, since you are holding a Stamp 4EUFam GNIB residence card and your EU spouse is accompanying you to Portugal, you do not need to obtain a Schengen Visa. Kindly make sure that you carry your original marriage certificate and the GNIB card. In case you intend travelling alone, then you need to obtain a visa and the information is available on our web site http://www.embassyportugal.ie

Thanks and regards,
JosÃ© do Carmo Pinto
Chancellor
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
De: XYZ@abc.ie
Enviada: quarta-feira, 14 de Julho de 2010 14:18
Para: embport@dublin.dgaccp.pt
Assunto: Visiting Algarve/Albufeira for 1 week holiday

Dear Sir/Madam,
I'm Non-EU National living and working in Ireland for last 8-9 years. I'm planning to visit Algarve/Albufeira for holidays (1 week) with my Wife and Son.
I'm holding Stamp4EUFam as my wife is an EU National.
I would like to know, if I need a Tourist visa to visit Portugal ? If yes, what document document do I require for it ?
Regards,
XYZ

It's not that positive. Marriage cert or residence card required - not both.

achosa · Post by **achosa** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:28 pm

My husband is from Bangladesh and holds stamp4eufam card - myself Polish. Coming back from holiday in Poland at Dublin airport immigration officer gave us almost 10min lecture how hard is in Ireland now because of all fake marriages of Pakistani/Bangladeshi citizents with Polish girls. Than pointed that we should stay and live in Poland instead of taking irish jobs! After that he said that he's hoping that we are not upset. That's just ridiculous and not acceptable!
How is your experience about it? Can they treat us like that?

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:54 pm

achosa wrote:My husband is from Bangladesh and holds stamp4eufam card - myself Polish. Coming back from holiday in Poland at Dublin airport immigration officer gave us almost 10min lecture how hard is in Ireland now because of all fake marriages of Pakistani/Bangladeshi citizents with Polish girls. Than pointed that we should stay and live in Poland instead of taking irish jobs! After that he said that he's hoping that we are not upset. That's just ridiculous and not acceptable!
How is your experience about it? Can they treat us like that?

Did you make a complaint?

Was your husband's passport stamped?

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:07 pm

Hi asrpb,

thanks a lot for this valuable update.

Seems like the Portugese embassy learned a lot lately

Rgds, Christian

achosa · Post by **achosa** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:13 pm

Ben wrote: Did you make a complaint?

No. We were too tired

Ben wrote:Was your husband's passport stamped?

Nope. Officer just checked in computer his gnib card and passport but didnt stamp.
He got a stamp few monthts ago though when we were coming back from Bangladesh.

agniukas · Post by **agniukas** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:51 pm

Ben wrote:
Was your husband's passport stamped?

Nope. Officer just checked in computer his gnib card and passport but didnt stamp.
He got a stamp few monthts ago though when we were coming back from Bangladesh

I am an EU national, but with a pre-EU passport, and my passport was stamped in spain.... and you are complaining about stamping of non-Eu passports of spouses of EU nationals...

ca.funke · Post by **ca.funke** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:58 pm

agniukas wrote:I am an EU national, but with a pre-EU passport, and my passport was stamped in spain.... and you are complaining about stamping of non-Eu passports of spouses of EU nationals...

I guess BenÂ´s remark is not a "complaint" (sorry if IÂ´m wrong, Ben), I guess it just serves to demonstrate that the GNIB-officials at the border mostly have no clue about the laws under which they operate.

Rather they just do what they feel like, which mostly doesnÂ´t reflect the intended purpose of the law, nor does it show professionalism which you could expect from border-guards.

Your experience (having a pre-EU passport stamped, just because "EU" isnÂ´t written on it) shows the same: They donÂ´t even seem to know which country is in the EU - unless itÂ´s written on the passport.

Monifé · Post by **Monifé** » Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:05 pm

Hi ca.funke and others.

Any update on what countries accept stamp 4EUFAM?

Plan to go on holidays with my partner next year, when he will be in possession of stamp 4EUFAM and wondering what choices of countries do we have?

Any replies much appreciated

IrishTom · Post by **IrishTom** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:41 pm

achosa wrote:My husband is from Bangladesh and holds stamp4eufam card - myself Polish. Coming back from holiday in Poland at Dublin airport immigration officer gave us almost 10min lecture how hard is in Ireland now because of all fake marriages of Pakistani/Bangladeshi citizents with Polish girls. Than pointed that we should stay and live in Poland instead of taking irish jobs! After that he said that he's hoping that we are not upset. That's just ridiculous and not acceptable!
How is your experience about it? Can they treat us like that?

Yeah and I am santa claus. Spoofer.

arski · Post by **arski** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:53 am

Hey guys,

amazing work on this I have to say!

Just wondering - has anyone ever inquired the embassies about the de-facto relationship based EUFam card? So many replies state that one needs to present a valid marriage certificate.. however, legally (if that matters), it is also possible to obtain this card without being married or related, i.e. through the 2+ year de facto relationship..

I assume explaining this to the officials of the border control will be a hopeless cause.. but maybe you have any ideas?

Cheers

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

4EUFam and EU wide travel - the complete guide

Positive reply from Portuguese Embassy (Dublin).

Re: Positive reply from Portuguese Embassy (Dublin).

Re: Positive reply from Portuguese Embassy (Dublin).