UK Citizen in Germany inviting family under EU Directive

JuniorG · Post by **JuniorG** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:37 pm

Hello,
Wondering if anyone could please help! I am a British citizen exercising treaty rights in Germany (working for a German company for the past three months). I would like to bring my mum and my brother (who are Dominican nationals and are currently living in Dominican Republic) here to Germany under the EU Directive/2004/38/EC â€˜Extended family membersâ€™

To do this, I completed a visit visa application form (which I downloaded from the German Embassy website in Dominican Republic). I also wrote a letter inviting my family here and explaining the reason for the invitation (emphasising that I am inviting them under EU law, explaining that we once, were all members of the same household and that they are now dependant on me, etc). I included bank statements, payslips, money transfer receipts proving my family dependence on me and also a copy of my residence permit in Germany.

My brother went this morning to deposit the applications to the embassy but they refused to take the applications. They said that the documents provided are not sufficient. They said that the applicants (in this case, my mum and my brother) both have to show prove of income, bank statements, letter from their bank, and letter from their employer, prove of house ownership, etc. They also said that the letter I wrote is not acceptable. They said that I (the person making the invitation) must go to a German embassy here in Germany and fill in a form (some kind of Invitation form) which will be stamped by the embassy. I must then send this form to my brother for him to take to the embassy together with all the other documents requested. Last but not least, they also said that each application submitted has a 60 â‚¬ charge, regardless of what type of application it is.

Now, this is completely different to anything I have read here in the site or in the Directive. According to the Directive, family members of EEA nationals are not required to prove any type of income or show financial status if applying for a visa to join their family member in an EEA state. Moreover, it says that the visa should be issued free of charge. I donâ€™t think Iâ€™m misinterpreting the Directive, hence the reason for my very long post!

Can you fine people please suggest what I should do? Have any of you experienced a similar situation before? How can I ensure that this embassy process these applications as intended?

Any suggestions you can give, will be greatly appreciated. Again, sorry for the rather long post!

Thanks in advance

Junior

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:09 am

Junior,

You should consider making a complain to SOLVIT UK and inform them about the response you got from the German Embassy.

They will contact their German Counterpart and hopefully help you resolve the matter.

There contact details is below.
http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/europea ... -rules/how we can help/page45874.htm

acme4242 · Post by **acme4242** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:55 am

as obie suggested, contact UK Solvit <-this link works

As you might be aware, they must be financial dependent on you,
if they are independently wealthy, big pension etc, then they can be refused.
This is unfair, but its the rules.
some extra reading.
The latest EU guidelines on EU family rights says the following

2.1.4. Dependent family members
According to the case-law(14) of the Court, the status of â€˜dependentâ€™ family member is the
result of a factual situation characterised by the fact that material support(15) for that family
member is provided by the EU citizen or by his spouse/partner. The status of dependent
family members does not presuppose a right to maintenance. There is no need to examine
whether the family members concerned would in theory be able to support themselves, for
example by taking up paid employment.

In order to determine whether family members are dependent, it must be assessed in the
individual case whether, having regard to their financial and social conditions, they need
material support to meet their essential needs in their country of origin or the country from
which they came at the time when they applied to join the EU citizen (i.e. not in the host
Member State where the EU citizen resides). In its judgments on the concept of dependency,
the Court did not refer to any level of standard of living for determining the need for financial
support by the EU citizen(16).
The Directive does not lay down any requirement as to the minimum duration of the
dependency or the amount of material support provided, as long as the dependency is genuine
and structural in character.
Dependent family members are required to present documentary evidence that they are
dependent. Evidence may be adduced by any appropriate means, as confirmed by the Court(17).
Where the family members concerned are able to provide evidence of their dependency by
means other than a certifying document issued by the relevant authority of the country of
origin or the country from which the family members are arriving, the host Member State may
not refuse to recognise their rights. However, a mere undertaking from the EU citizen to
support the family member concerned is not sufficient in itself to establish the existence of
dependence.

In accordance with Article 3(2), Member States have a certain degree of discretion in laying
down criteria to be taken into account when deciding whether to grant the rights under the
Directive to "other dependent family members". However, Member States do not enjoy
unrestricted liberty in laying down such criteria. In order to maintain the unity of the family in
a broad sense, the national legislation must provide for a careful examination of the relevant
personal circumstances of the applicants concerned, taking into consideration their
relationship with the EU citizen or any other circumstances, such as their financial or physical
dependence, as stipulated in Recital 6.
Any negative decision is subject to all the material and procedural safeguards of the Directive.
It must be fully justified in writing and open to appeal.

14 Cases 316/85 Lebon (para 22) and C-1/05 Jia (paras 36-37)
15 Emotional dependence is not taken into account, see AG Tizzano in case C-200/02 Zhu and Chen, para 84
16 The test of dependency should primarily be whether, in the light of their personal circumstances, the
financial means of the family members permit them to live at the minimum level of subsistence in the
country of their normal residence (AG Geelhoed in case C-1/05 Jia, para 96).
17 Cases C-215/03 Oulane (para 53) and C-1/05 Jia (para 41)

JuniorG · Post by **JuniorG** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:19 am

Good morning Obie, acme,
Thank you for the suggestion and the information.
I have logged a case with Solvit online. Now let's see what happens.

So do you agree that the extra documents the embassy is asking for is wrong?

I will also try to contact the German embassy here in Germany and see if they can outline the correct way in which these visas should be processed. See what they say!

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:02 am

In Germany a simple invitation letter is not enough. For Visa Invitation Purposes you need to get an official formal obligation form "VerpflichtungserklÃ¤rung" from the local City Hall (Einwohnermeldeamt).

Depending on the city hall you will need to bring work contract, 3 payslips, lease (to show you can accomodate them) and Visitors details.

You will then get issued with the formal form which you have to bring to the embassy.

This has been the case in germany for many years, and applies to EU citizens as much as to germans.

http://www.toytowngermany.com//forum/in ... topic=6185

acme4242 · Post by **acme4242** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:03 am

Yes, the German requirements seem too much If you apply on the basis
that your family members are dependent on you.
But you must show proof that your family are dependent on you. No more.

See EU citizens rights

As your right of entry is derived from your family ties with a Union citizen, all the Member State consular officials can ask you to produce for the visa application is your passport and a document establishing the family ties with a Union citizen, such as marriage or birth certificate and proof of dependence, where applicable.

WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
Consular officers issuing the visas may not:

* ask you to produce any documents other than a valid passport and documents attesting to your family link with a Union citizen and proof of dependence, where applicable, such as to furnish proof of means to support yourself, travel tickets, employment certificate, pay slips, bank statements, proof of accommodation, means of subsistence, medical certificate â€¦
* ask you how much money you have to spend;
* ask you questions regarding the purpose and duration of your trip.

ck4137 · Post by **ck4137** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:11 pm

Do the latest EU guidelines on EU family member include the parents of a minor EU citizen?If "yes",the UK Home Office has interpreted the chen ruling incorrectly(because they don't allow the parents to work in the UK)

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:50 am

dsab85 wrote:In Germany a simple invitation letter is not enough. For Visa Invitation Purposes you need to get an official formal obligation form "VerpflichtungserklÃ¤rung" from the local City Hall (Einwohnermeldeamt).
...
This has been the case in germany for many years, and applies to EU citizens as much as to germans.

http://www.toytowngermany.com//forum/in ... topic=6185

A VerpflichtungserklÃ¤rung is NOT required for family members of EU citizens.

JuniorG · Post by **JuniorG** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:50 am

Hello everyone,

I was just on my way to the town hall to enquire about this 'VerpflichtungserklÃ¤rung' thingy! Can anyone confirm Directive's view? Do I really not need it?

Thanks

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:14 am

Your type of application is not a standard one. If they were direct family members, for instance spouse or children, then the rules are very clear.

You have a choice. You can learn a lot about EU law and fight for a really simple appplication. This will take time and effort. Or you can give them whatever they want (money, guarantees, etc) and probably sort it out faster.

http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/l ... ungen.html
This talks about Documents required for spouses of EU nationals: though in reality this also is for kids.

The requirements for "other family" is not clearly defined.

JuniorG · Post by **JuniorG** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:32 pm

Hello again everyone,

Thanks Directive. So, in your opinion, it is best for me to just agree with the embassy and provide them all they are asking for? Instead of trying to get them to process the application as should be? The only problem I foresee is that as I am my family's main source of income, and because neither my mum nor my brother are currently working (they are financially dependent on me), it is going to be tricky for them to provide any healthy bank statements or get letters from employers. I mean, my mum can provide prove of house ownership as she owns her house but thatâ€™s about it!

I think that this will make it more difficult for them to get granted visit visas, as the embassy will probably think that my family will want to stay in Germany once their visas run out! After all, what have they got back home to go back to?!

I mean, is understandable really. I can see their point of view.

Anyways, is that the general consensus then? Is there no point in me trying to get these visas processed under EU law?

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:51 pm

JuniorG wrote:I think that this will make it more difficult for them to get granted visit visas, as the embassy will probably think that my family will want to stay in Germany once their visas run out! After all, what have they got back home to go back to?!

If they would be accepted as your dependent family members they would have the right to stay with you in Germany anyway. The problem, however, is to show that they are dependent on you and the only reasonable way I see is to allow the embassy insight into their financial situation. BTW, I would think that your mother is a "direct" family member according to Article 2, point 2d. She should get the visa for free.

JuniorG · Post by **JuniorG** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:11 pm

Hello 86ti,

Well, in all honestly, I would have thought that both my mum and brother should at least have their applications accepted for free, after all they are both my family! If one of them ends up not getting the visa then fine, at least they had a look and assessed the applications. Anyhow, the embassy is asking for each of them to pay 60 euros just to deposit the application!

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:22 pm

JuniorG wrote:Hello 86ti,

Well, in all honestly, I would have thought that both my mum and brother should at least have their applications accepted for free, after all they are both my family! If one of them ends up not getting the visa then fine, at least they had a look and assessed the applications. Anyhow, the embassy is asking for each of them to pay 60 euros just to deposit the application!

Junior you are absolutely right, your dependent mother falls under Article (2) family members, and also you brother if he is under 21 years of Age.
If he is supported by you, even if he is over 21, he is still covered by the law.

You are not supposed to pay a penny. This people are worse than the Brits and the Irish.

JuniorG · Post by **JuniorG** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:03 pm

Hey Obie, how are you man?!
Yeah, they are hustlers! I guess I'll just have to try their way and just keep my fingers crossed!
I did send my case to Solvit hoping that they could maybe clarify this situation for me, but so far not contact from them!

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:09 pm

JuniorG wrote:Hey Obie, how are you man?!
Yeah, they are hustlers! I guess I'll just have to try their way and just keep my fingers crossed!
I did send my case to Solvit hoping that they could maybe clarify this situation for me, but so far not contact from them!

I am doing good junior. Nice to hear from you again.

Solvit usually take a while, but they will get to you eventually. Alternatively you can give them a call, to speed things up.

JuniorG · Post by **JuniorG** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:03 pm

Hello everyone,
It has been a while since I last posted here. I just would like to keep you updated on what has happened since my last post...

Maybe someone wanting to do the same or maybe someone in the same predicament as me can benefit from this post:-

Well, as the subject states, my family were granted visit visas to come to Germany for three months. Having hit couple of roadblocks with the embassy at the beginning (them asking for documents and payment for the visas, etc), I decided to go to Dominican Republic and deposit the applications myself. I tried in vain to make my case about the directive. I tried every angle to point them to the directive but no chance! Their official answer was this:-
[quote]â€œthe EU directive is implemented by our embassy. Family members of EU citizens living in Germany are treated not differently than family members of German citizens.

1. Your mother and brother have to apply for visit visas.

2. The visa fee has to be paid.

Please have a look into Article 2 of the FreizÃ¼gigkeitsgesetz/EU
(FreizÃ¼gG/EU) and the definition of family members.â€

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:20 pm

JuniorG wrote:My question is, their visa is a Schengen visa (it says so on the visa itself). Will they be OK coming out of the airport there and me picking them up by car?

A Schengen visa is valid within all of the Schengen area as it says.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:32 pm

Junior i am so delighted for you man. Yes , you don't need an additional visa and you can pick them up by car from Brussels.

You next step should be reporting the German Embassy to the European Commission and get your money reimbursed. At least now, your family are with you, it doesn't matter the length of the process.

JuniorG · Post by **JuniorG** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:36 pm

Hi Obie, 86ti,

Great news! I am looking forward to having my family here! (can't wait for my mum to fatten me up, she was already complaining that I looked too skinny!)
I was a bit worried about them being stopped in Brussels but hopefully they will be OK (their visas do state: Valid for all Shengen states)

@Obie, I was just thinking of leaving the case at that. the visa fee was not so much really (60 euros per application) so I don't think it will be worth all the trouble. And in any case, I got my family here which was the whole point (I was just worried that if the embassy treated my application under different laws than stated in the directive, they may have refused my family the visas, but as everything ended up OK, I think I can ignore the fees)

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:49 pm

I hope you missus will not be too upset if she tried to fatten you up too much. Oh mothers and their sons, you just remind me of mine, always cooking those home made foods i have forgotten about, from years of living in Europe.

They are so caring.

I was not worried about the money, it is the principal. However, been that you are so happy and delighted, it might be best to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Now you need to work on their Resident card application or whatever they call it in Germany.

All the best bro.

eldane · Post by **eldane** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:12 pm

I am afraid that I do not agree with you in forgetting the fee just because of the insignificant amount. I think you are doing the next EU citizen a huge disservice as the next one to apply will face the same obstacles as you did when you infact should not face any obstacules at all.
You won't even have to wait for your family to arrive as you by now have got the desired visas so in my humble opinion you would be doing all EU citizen a major favour by pursue the matter.

Just my 1 pence...

Michael

JuniorG · Post by **JuniorG** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:16 pm

Hi Michael,

Funny enough, I have just today received an e-mail from Solvit (I contacted them about this case - see my earlier posts above) regarding this exact same point. They told me that the embassy will indeed refund me the visa fees but that at present they do not have a mechanism in place so they will need to establish this mechanism (which could take a while). See e-mail from Solvit below:-

I have been informed that the Embassy will be refunding the visa payments, but while they have agreed to do so, there is not yet a mechanism in place to make refunds, so this needs to be established first, it may take a little time, you should be contacted by the Embassy because they will need your details to make the refund. In principle we have received a solution, the practical aspect will take a little time, please keep in touch and let me know when they contact you, if they do not then we will of course check up on progress.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:24 pm

Nice one. Good to learn that SOLVIT are starting to do the job for which they are paid.

I am sure you can find a better thing to do with that 120euros than giving it to those incompetent embassy staff. Pocket money for your brother, or a contribution to the first shopping for your family will be a better way to spend it surely.

JuniorG · Post by **JuniorG** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:02 pm

Most definitely Obie!

Now, I have another query (again!)
I know that you and 86ti have already answered me this so sorry for asking again!
The thing is that my brother called me yesterday and told me that he contacted the embassy regarding their flight and the fact that they would be picked up from Brussels (he wanted to double-check that it would be OK). He was told by someone at the embassy that they would not be allowed to leave the airport in Brussels and that instead, they could be deported and sent back home. He was told that the reason for this is that with the visa they have, they are not allowed to disembark at any other country to the one that granted them the visas.

Iâ€™m a bit worried now as they are due to travel in couple of days and finding flights from Brussels to Dusseldorf at such short notice is proving a bit difficult. The ones I have found so far are coming quite expensive!

The visas they were granted are type â€˜Câ€™ with a number of entries of â€˜1â€™. However, the visas do state: Valid for â€˜SCHENGENER STAATENâ€™

What do you guys think? Are we screwed? Will I have to keep looking for connection flights from Brussels to Germany and maybe pay an arm and a leg for them?!

I donâ€™t think they should risk trying to come out in case they are indeed stopped and denied leaving the airport!

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UK Citizen in Germany inviting family under EU Directive

UK Citizen in Germany inviting family under EU Directive

Visit visas Granted!!

Re: Visit visas Granted!!

Junior I think you MUST report the embassy to EU