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EEA Family Permit for UK

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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ChIrl
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EEA Family Permit for UK

Post by ChIrl » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:35 pm

Hi

Does anyone know how long the EEA Family Permit (UK) will be issued for? Or is it a certificate which can be used all the time.

Is it possible for get EES family permit for 5 years for UK? My wife's (Non-EEA national) UK visa is expiring end of this year and would like to apply based on my Irish citizenship.

Thanks in advance,

fysicus
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Post by fysicus » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:47 pm

An EEA FP is valid for six months, no exceptions to that rule. The validity period normally starts on the date of issue, but you can request a later date (up to three months later).
For example, if you apply today, you could ask for it to be valid from 1 November 2009 until 30 April 2010.

You can only apply for it outside the UK; the application form to use is VAF5.
If you are already in the UK, you can use form EEA2 to apply for a Residence Card for a family member of an EEA national which is valid for five years.

Obie
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Post by Obie » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:50 pm

Here is the guidance note which explains more about the EEA Family Permit.

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply ... snationals

If your wife wants a 5 years visa, she would need to apply under UK nationals rules and pay the appropriate fees, which is increasing by the minute.

All the best mate
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Ben
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Post by Ben » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:52 pm

Does you wife ever go to the UK without you?

If not, no visa / EEA FP required.
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ChIrl
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Post by ChIrl » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:54 pm

My wife would be travelling with me all the time. Mostly, we will be going for short period say a week or two.
benifa wrote:Does you wife ever go to the UK without you?

If not, no visa / EEA FP required.

Ben
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Post by Ben » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:59 pm

ChIrl wrote:My wife would be travelling with me all the time. Mostly, we will be going for short period say a week or two.
The are usually no border controls at UK ports for flights or ships arriving from Ireland.

If, however, you encounter a spot check, presentation of your passports + marriage certificate is sufficient for lawful entry.
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ChIrl
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Post by ChIrl » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:06 pm

Thanks Benifa.

I agree that no border controls as UK ports, but that would put us in limbo whether or not.

Any references for this, just to be safe.
benifa wrote:
ChIrl wrote:My wife would be travelling with me all the time. Mostly, we will be going for short period say a week or two.
The are usually no border controls at UK ports for flights or ships arriving from Ireland.

If, however, you encounter a spot check, presentation of your passports + marriage certificate is sufficient for lawful entry.

Obie
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Post by Obie » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:17 pm

Here is the Law that protect your wife from expulsion, in the unlikely event of her being stopped by a UK border Agency official (Immigration Officer)
Article 5

4. Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a
national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel
documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member
State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such
persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary
documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable
period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that
they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.
There is also a ruling by the EU court against Belgium in favour of Mrax. Which forbids member states from deporting family members of Union Citizen, where evidence of a familial relationship has been supplied.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Ben
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Post by Ben » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:22 pm

ChIrl wrote:..but that would put us in limbo whether or not.
There's no limbo, you're merely acting as the law permits.
ChIrl wrote:Any references for this, just to be safe.
The EU Directive..
Directive 2004/38/EC, Article 5(4) wrote:4. Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not
have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State
concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain
the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to
corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and
residence.
UK law..
The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006, Part 2 wrote:Right of admission to the United Kingdom
11.
(4) Before an immigration officer refuses admission to the United Kingdom to a person under
this regulation because the person does not produce on arrival a document mentioned in paragraph
(1) or (2), the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the
document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means
that he is—
(a) an EEA national;
(b) a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that national or join him
in the United Kingdom; or
(c) a family member who has retained the right of residence or a person with a permanent
right of residence under regulation 15.
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Obie
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Post by Obie » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:40 pm

I thought you were a pro- EEA family permit advocate Ben.

How wrong could i be.

I certainly would not have predicted your response. Which, incidentally is perfectly accurate and meet the legal requirement criteria.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

ChIrl
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Post by ChIrl » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:48 pm

Thanks Ben and Obie.

msmoby_ru
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Post by msmoby_ru » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:20 pm

benifa wrote: The are usually no border controls at UK ports for flights or ships arriving from Ireland.

If, however, you encounter a spot check, presentation of your passports + marriage certificate is sufficient for lawful entry.
Hi Benifa

Are you saying that if your EEA FP has expired and your are awaiting a Residency stamp, you could travel to France / IRL with a visa and return to the UK with the passport / Mariage cert / and lots of evidence of legal status..travelling together.

It's just that we were thinking of getting a IRL Visa, and then applying at the UK Embassy in Dublin for a renewed EEA FP while we wait for the non EU - dependent of EU Citizen residency stamp.

I hold UK / IRL passports and applied exercising my treaty rights as a UK citizen who has lived and worked out of the UK for six years and was resident in a third party EU country ( Cyprus)

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Post by Ben » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:10 pm

msmoby_ru wrote:Are you saying that if your EEA FP has expired and your are awaiting a Residency stamp, you could travel to France / IRL with a visa and return to the UK with the passport / Mariage cert / and lots of evidence of legal status..travelling together.
A non-EEA national family member of an EEA national, resident in the UK, has submitted the EEA2 form and is awaiting receipt of the Residence Card, can travel to France or Ireland then back to the UK, together with his/her EEA national family member, in possession of both passports and marriage certificate.
msmoby_ru wrote:It's just that we were thinking of getting a IRL Visa
Not required if travelling to Ireland together and in possession of your passports and marriage cert.
msmoby_ru wrote: and then applying at the UK Embassy in Dublin for a renewed EEA FP while we wait for the non EU - dependent of EU Citizen residency stamp.
What for?
msmoby_ru wrote:I hold UK / IRL passports and applied exercising my treaty rights as a UK citizen who has lived and worked out of the UK for six years and was resident in a third party EU country ( Cyprus)
That's fine but why didn't you apply based on your Irish citizenship? Would have meant less paperwork.
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msmoby_ru
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Post by msmoby_ru » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:51 pm

benifa wrote: A non-EEA national family member of an EEA national, resident in the UK, has submitted the EEA2 form and is awaiting receipt of the Residence Card, can travel to France or Ireland then back to the UK, together with his/her EEA national family member, in possession of both passports and marriage certificate.

You see that's the bit I "worry" about.. Are you saying that there WILL NOT be an issue to get on a plane / boat either end?

HOW do the French / Irish know the Residency permit is applied for..?



I note they ( FR / UK / IRL ) all STILL say that even if you have residency in the UK / UK EEA FP - a visa is necessary.

msmoby_ru wrote:I hold UK / IRL passports and applied exercising my treaty rights as a UK citizen who has lived and worked out of the UK for six years and was resident in a third party EU country ( Cyprus)
benifa wrote:That's fine but why didn't you apply based on your Irish citizenship? Would have meant less paperwork.
??!! I applied at the Cyprus UK High Commission using EEA2 - the paperwork is exactly the same if I apply as a IRL citizen, surely?.. The application form was filled in, vetted and the permits granted in 2 hours.. Applying as the UK citizen means that she CAN - if necessary - change over to the "Leave to remain route" - as residency becomes permanent - quicker - as does route to citizenship.. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Please understand - I'm NOT trying to question your advice.. I need answers - as if I'm being the Devil's advocate, as I'm confident enough, but it is my poor wife that has dealt with Officials that aren't aware of her rights TOO many times...

Thanks.

Obie
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Post by Obie » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:10 pm

Your ability to travel with your wife to France or anywhere else in Europe (EEA) is not dependent on your wife having fulfilled any administrative formalities. That is applying for Resident Card. However to be realistic, she will be unable to obtain a visa without evidence or a status in the UK, which will make it impossible for her to board a flight to France.

If however, she manages to get to the French border with you, she will not be refused entry as long as you hold your marriage Certificate and you both hold a valid passport or in your case a valid ID card.

On your return to UK, you will find it hard for her to return without applying for an EEA family Permit.


In regards to Ireland, the Irish require a visa, and you should expect unnecessary delays if you enter via Irish Airport without as visa, as most of the immigration Staff are quite ill-informed.

If you and your wife have been married for four or more years, you can apply for a settlement visa to the UK which will enable her to receive ILE-KOL req on her admission to the UK.

Once she has passed her life in the UK test, she will obtain a ILR rather than having to wait for the 2 years probationary period. After 3 years of legal stay in the UK, she will be able to apply for Citizenship.

Please note that new citizenship rule will be adopted in 2011, which might curtail the rights of your wife to obtain citizenship earlier.
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Post by Ben » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:29 pm

msmoby_ru wrote:You see that's the bit I "worry" about.. Are you saying that there WILL NOT be an issue to get on a plane / boat either end?
Quite the opposite, sadly. Be prepared for a fight and leave plenty of time. You're acting quite lawfully, but often airline staff don't know the rules. Or, get the visa if you choose to. It'd be free anyway.
msmoby_ru wrote:HOW do the French / Irish know the Residency permit is applied for..?
They wouldn't want or need to know.
msmoby_ru wrote:I note they ( FR / UK / IRL ) all STILL say that even if you have residency in the UK / UK EEA FP - a visa is necessary.
They're wrong, and if you turn up at the border as a couple, with your passports and marriage cert but without a visa, they still have to let you in. Them's the rules.
msmoby_ru wrote:
msmoby_ru wrote:I hold UK / IRL passports and applied exercising my treaty rights as a UK citizen who has lived and worked out of the UK for six years and was resident in a third party EU country ( Cyprus)
benifa wrote:That's fine but why didn't you apply based on your Irish citizenship? Would have meant less paperwork.
??!! I applied at the Cyprus UK High Commission using EEA2 - the paperwork is exactly the same if I apply as a IRL citizen, surely?.. The application form was filled in, vetted and the permits granted in 2 hours.. Applying as the UK citizen means that she CAN - if necessary - change over to the "Leave to remain route" - as residency becomes permanent - quicker - as does route to citizenship.. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You cannot change from the EEA route to the UK route in-country. You had three options to take:
  • As a UK national, you could have used the UK route (Spouse visa, ILR after 2 years, citizenship application after a further 1 year) - total time to citizenship - 3 years minimum.
  • As an Irish national, you could have used the EEA route (Optional EEA Family Permit then Residence Card, PR after 5 years, citizenship application after a further 1 year) - total time to citizenship - 6 years minimum.
  • As a UK national returning to the UK after having pursued an economic activity in another Member State, you could have used the EEA route (Optional EEA Family Permit then Residence Card, PR after 5 years, citizenship application immediately) - total time to citizenship - 5 years minimum.
I think you chose the third option, right?

Anyway, *I believe* that even if the EEA FP application and subsequent EEA2 application was filled in with you as an Irish national, your wife would still be eligible for naturalisation after 5 years, rather than 6 years, since you are still a British citizen.

The benefit of using your Irish citizenship, when filling in the form for the EEA FP application and subsequent EEA2 application, would have been that you wouldn't have had to provide evidence of your having pursued an economic activity in another Member State. But still, not the end of the world.
msmoby_ru wrote:Please understand - I'm NOT trying to question your advice.. I need answers - as if I'm being the Devil's advocate, as I'm confident enough, but it is my poor wife that has dealt with Officials that aren't aware of her rights TOO many times...
I completely understand, and I know exactly how you feel.
Obie wrote:However to be realistic, she will be unable to obtain a visa without evidence or a status in the UK, which will make it impossible for her to board a flight to France.
Incorrect.
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Obie
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Post by Obie » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:40 pm

I never said this is the correct procedure, as this has been clarified in the Metock ruling. However the French Embassy are demanding evidence that the applicant has lawful status in the UK before they will issue a visa.

Simply married to an EU national does not suffice for that requirement in their view.

This is however illegal.
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msmoby_ru
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Post by msmoby_ru » Thu May 13, 2010 7:05 am

An update

Wifey and step-son now have UK "Residence Document" in their non-EU passports..

and YET... France are saying step-son 'needs a visa' and Ireland saying BOTH need a Visa !!

Response from EU Citizen Signpost at my 'querying' this..

>>Thank you for your enquiry.

The situation regarding entry to other Member States by EU citizens and their families is governed by Directive 2004/38. Article 5 of this Directive provides that non-EU family members in possession of a valid residence card should be able to travel to any other Member State in the company of or to join the EU family member, simply on production of a passport and the residence card in lieu of a visa. However, many Member States do not observe this provision and continue to insist on the production of a valid visa to allow the non-EU family member to enter their territory. The European Commission is currently investigating this situation which differs from Member State to Member State, as you have discovered.

Pending the outcome of the investigation, you are advised to obtain a visa where the Embassy of the Member State advises you to do so. This means that your son will require a visa to travel to France and both your son and wife will require visas to travel to Ireland. These visas should, if your wife and son are travelling with or to join you, be granted without delay or charge or formality.

For further information on travelling in the EU, you may find the following webpage to be of interest: http://europa.eu/travel/index_en.htm

You may also find the following guide to Directive 2004/38 to be of assistance: http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/ ... _ec_en.pdf

I trust that this information is of assistance to you.

Yours sincerely,

Citizens Signpost Service. <<

ChIrl
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Post by ChIrl » Thu May 13, 2010 7:22 am

Thanks Mark. I am in the process of obtaining EEA family permit.
msmoby_ru wrote:An update

Wifey and step-son now have UK "Residence Document" in their non-EU passports..

and YET... France are saying step-son 'needs a visa' and Ireland saying BOTH need a Visa !!

Response from EU Citizen Signpost at my 'querying' this..

>>Thank you for your enquiry.

The situation regarding entry to other Member States by EU citizens and their families is governed by Directive 2004/38. Article 5 of this Directive provides that non-EU family members in possession of a valid residence card should be able to travel to any other Member State in the company of or to join the EU family member, simply on production of a passport and the residence card in lieu of a visa. However, many Member States do not observe this provision and continue to insist on the production of a valid visa to allow the non-EU family member to enter their territory. The European Commission is currently investigating this situation which differs from Member State to Member State, as you have discovered.

Pending the outcome of the investigation, you are advised to obtain a visa where the Embassy of the Member State advises you to do so. This means that your son will require a visa to travel to France and both your son and wife will require visas to travel to Ireland. These visas should, if your wife and son are travelling with or to join you, be granted without delay or charge or formality.

For further information on travelling in the EU, you may find the following webpage to be of interest: http://europa.eu/travel/index_en.htm

You may also find the following guide to Directive 2004/38 to be of assistance: http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/ ... _ec_en.pdf

I trust that this information is of assistance to you.

Yours sincerely,

Citizens Signpost Service. <<

msmoby_ru
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Post by msmoby_ru » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:00 am

UPDATE, Following me email to the French Consulate they have admitted their error and updated their website to include ALL family members of an EEA citizens


We travelled via France and no probs either way.. and NO stamps in the Non EU family members' passports

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