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Naturalisation Dilemma

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gainvidya
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Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:42 am

Naturalisation Dilemma

Post by gainvidya » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:08 pm

Hi guys,

I have the following issues and question. I am expecting to fall in similar situation as here . I have a good employment offer from Saudi(Tax free country). I plan to join them by end of Sep'09. I also qualify to apply for naturalisation application by 3 Nov'09. The offer is too good to be turned down and hence following is my plan but not sure if it would work as there are issues I am worried about.

#Naturalisation Application
>After joining my employment in Saudi in Sep I plan come back to UK after a month on 3 Nov'09
>Apply for naturalisation and go back to Saudi to continue my employment.
Question
Looking at my Saudi visa will they consider this as not intending to live in UK or effect my application in anyways?


#When Naturalisation Certificate arrives by post
>Come to UK and Attend a private ceremony for the oath at a premium cost
>Apply for UK passport
>Go back to Saudi to continue my employment.
Question
Is it possible attend the private ceremony and apply for UK Passport in Saudi.


#When UK Passport interview call is scheduled.
>Attend the interview
>get the UK passport
>get the visa for Saudi on my new UK Passport
I know technically at this stage indian passport cease to be valid but because of lack of any travel document I intend to use my indian passport as I read many doing this in this forum with success.

Question
Can I apply for UK passport and attend the interview in Saudi?
Is there a way to expediate the UK passport process or acquire a UK travel document at this stage?
At what stage do I need to submit my Indian passport and when will I get it back.


Tons of thanks for anyone who may reply to this.

global gypsy
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Posts: 537
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 6:00 pm
Location: London

Post by global gypsy » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:26 pm

You DO like to live on the edge, don't you? :)

Seriously, what you are planning to do is quite tricky, and you may trip up on the way somewhere. And I doubt if the advice you get here can remove the uncertainty inherent in your 'plan'.

I have found that when faced with a difficult decision in life, one needs to clearly identify what is most important. In this case, what is more important for you? The job or British citizenship? If the citizenship is of higher priority for you, then it's crucial you don't do anything that could jeopardise your success of getting it. You may need to request your Saudi employer to wait for a while - and you can provide them some excuses, which they may accept after all.

On the other hand, if the job is so important for you, then you could take the risks as you have outlined. As you know, there are so many steps that could go wrong, so it's your call. Personally, I would stick to getting British citizenship - one could get a similar (or even better!) job later, after all.

All the best.
Last edited by global gypsy on Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

gainvidya
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Post by gainvidya » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:58 am

global gypsy wrote:You DO like to live on the edge, don't you? :)
You may need to request your Saudi employer to wait for a while
Asking the employer to wait for how long..??

As I said the offer is too good paying me almost like a contractors rate in UK because of my unique skill they require. This whole process of immigration appears endless. For last 5 years I am tied to 1 employer (I was on Work Permit) now is the time to earn the compensation I deserve. But this bureaucratic Immigration process is getting like a thorn in my neck. It sucks.....

I think its doable. I really expect some feedback from knowledgeable people out there.

anjali_devi
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Post by anjali_devi » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:18 am

i had both a USA h1b visa and an Australian work visa. But i got my UK naturalization.

newperson
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Post by newperson » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:18 am

gainvidya wrote:I really expect some feedback from knowledgeable people out there.
With all due respect, what you're really expecting is some childlike reassurance that everything will be okay and alright and there won't be any problems. Unfortunately, that's not reality.

Here's the problem straight-up. If you're not married to a UK citizen, you're supposed to be intending to make your home in the UK after you've naturalised. But Mr Gainvidya has an immediate position in Saudi Arabia that he wants to accept, so he's not exactly following the rules there, is he? Sort of a lie on the old application form, isn't it?

Anyway, heigh-ho. People lie everyday, don't they? But for some strange reason the British Government takes an official stance against deception, particularly when they're handing out citizenships (they've got enough native chancers to deal with as it is). And particularly when the obvious nature of the deception is staring them right in the face. And that blatant evidence will be the recent Saudi work visa stamped prominently in your passport.

If you read the caseworkers advice on naturalisation, they are instructed to refuse applications for naturalisation if there is reasonable evidence that the applicant will not be intending to make their home in the UK. They are instructed to inform the applicant who is intending to go overseas for reasons such as yours to go ahead and do so, but to reapply for naturalisation upon returning to the UK, provided that they satisfy the residency and other requirements.

Then again you might get a lazy and/or disinterested and/or unknowledgeable caseworker who'll just stamp you through. For example the poster above got lucky and you're more than welcome to take your chances as well. But just keep in mind that the £700+ naturalisation application fee is non-refundable. So the lesson here is that there is no 100% guarantee with anything. Adult life is about rolling the dice, mate.

Depending on how long you will be overseas, this might put your naturalisation application on hold for a very long time. Which quite understandably, you don't want to do. But if you are looking for reassurance or instruction about how to engage in an orchestrated deception, I'd suggest you take your queries elsewhere.

Good luck whatever you do.

gainvidya
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:42 am

Post by gainvidya » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:37 am

Another point to add I dont intend to leave UK forever but for short or long(max 2 year) term. I have my wife and kid who will continue to reside in UK.

newperson: you sound more like a rant than an advise.

djb123
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Post by djb123 » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:41 pm

By my reckoning you will have to make at least 3 false declarations on the form (address history, current employer, and reasons for travelling outside the UK). Just consider this statement which is at the the top of the page containing the declaration that you will be signing.

"WARNING: To give false information on this form knowingly or recklessly is a criminal offence punishable with up to 3 months' imprisonment or by a fine not exceeding £5,000 or both."

I would hope no-one on this board will advise you to follow your plan.

newperson
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Post by newperson » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:09 pm

gainvidya wrote:Another point to add I dont intend to leave UK forever but for short or long(max 2 year) term. I have my wife and kid who will continue to reside in UK.
Gainividya, this is vexing! Why didn't you state this in the first place? This is critical, material information. Your original post as written looks as if you're trying to pull a fast one.

Alright, listen. You need to have a good read of this. You might even want to engage a solicitor about it, paying particular attention to almost all of Section 2. You need to be honest and upfront on your application, but you need to make it clear that you are maintaining a permanent, principle home in the UK and that your family is staying there and that you are planning on returning permanently to the UK after two years. This point needs to be carefully argued, as your application may be refused otherwise. But you need to be clear about your intentions whatever you do.

If you do the NCS, you will get your passport back. So you can travel and go wherever you want. Then you just need to wait and see if the Home Office accepts your arguments.

If they don't, they don't. Naturalisation is at the discretion of the Home Secretary, so the appeal rights aren't as broad as they are for residency. You'll likely have to wait until you return to the UK permanently in two years. Hopefully you won't get caught up in the whole probationary citizenship sing-song, but you'll have to see. Remember that as currently stipulated, current ILR-holders have until July 2013 to get citizenship under the current laws. If you wait until 2011 to come back permanently, you might not satisfy the residency requirements for a naturalisation application before July 2013. So keep that in mind.

If they do accept your application, this gets a bit tricky. You can schedule a private or regular group ceremony at your convenience in the UK. You can get back here travelling on your valid Indian passport without a problem in doing so. But once you do your citizenship ceremony, you won't be Indian any longer. That passport will no longer be valid, so naughty Gainvidya if you travel on it!

But sticking to the British side of things, if you are *completely* honest on your citizenship application and the Home Office accepts your arguments, I don't foresee a problem with your applying for a UK passport from Saudi Arabia. You told them you were temporarily working abroad and they were okay with it, so you should be fine to apply from Saudi. (Keep photocopies of your naturalisation application, by the way!) The problem might be if you apply for a passport abroad and you've strung a whole load of tales about currently living and working in the UK. That might be bad. Very bad.

Applying for your passport in the UK might pose a logistical problem. You would need to submit your Indian passport to the UK Passport Office, so you effectively wouldn't be able to travel for up to six weeks while your passport application is being processed. I'm not sure your Saudi employers would like that.

Your only sin here will be travelling on an invalid Indian passport for your return to Saudi Arabia. This might bite you in the bum if you apply for your PIO or OIC, and the Indians put together that you used the Indian passport after getting UK citizenship. Again, that might be bad. Very bad.

Here's what I would do to remain absolutely legal at all times. Apply for citizenship in November as planned, remembering to be completely honest about your intentions. With the current backlog of naturalisation applications due to the upcoming rule changes, you might not get a decision until January, February or March or even later. You can delay your ceremony up to three months later until April, May or June then. Or even later, depending on when you're notified. Plan your annual holiday from Saudi back to the UK to coincide with your ceremony and UK passport application. After working in Saudi for up to seven months, I would hope you could take a six-week holiday back home. Yeah? Maybe look into that? This way you will be breaking no laws and your good karma stays intact.

The second option is that when you lodge your naturalisation application in which you are being completely honest and upfront, you write in the section where you want the citizenship ceremony to be held "British Embassy-Riyadh" or "British Consulate General-Jeddah". This way if the application gets approved, they will forward the naturalisation certificate to the British post in Saudi Arabia. Then you can be sworn in there and get your passport there. Again, you can only do this if you have been completely honest. But when I think about it, this might be the best solution possible for you! You will always be legal from both an Indian and UK point of view, and you will minimise your travel. You'll just need to make sure that your Saudi visa gets switched over to your new UK passport as soon as possible.

So yeah, those are a couple of options. Good luck, and remember to share valuable information when it's useful. Particularly to yourself!

gainvidya
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Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:42 am

Post by gainvidya » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:49 pm

newperson wrote:
gainvidya wrote:Another point to add I dont intend to leave UK forever but for short or long(max 2 year) term. I have my wife and kid who will continue to reside in UK.
Your only sin here will be travelling on an invalid Indian passport for your return to Saudi Arabia. This might bite you in the bum if you apply for your PIO or OIC, and the Indians put together that you used the Indian passport after getting UK citizenship. Again, that might be bad. Very bad.
This is the toughest bit I fear. I dont want to be in the this sitiuation (denied OCI) as my parent and relatives are all in India. I appreciate your valuable time and advise newpersoln, it was very helpful.

I have my same address (rented) from last 3.5 years and will continue to do so as my wife and kid will stay there.

Looks like Naturalisation approval is highly possible but the tricky bit is getting the UK passport within 3-4 weeks to travel back to Saudi delaying any further may irk my saudi employer.

newperson
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:36 am

Post by newperson » Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:19 am

Then do this option, then:
newperson wrote:The second option is that when you lodge your naturalisation application in which you are being completely honest and upfront, you write in section 1.21 on the application where you want the citizenship ceremony to be held "British Embassy-Riyadh" or "British Consulate General-Jeddah". This way if the application gets approved, they will forward the naturalisation certificate to the British post in Saudi Arabia. Then you can be sworn in there and get your passport there. Again, you can only do this if you have been completely honest. But when I think about it, this might be the best solution possible for you! You will always be legal from both an Indian and UK point of view, and you will minimise your travel. You'll just need to make sure that your Saudi visa gets switched over to your new UK passport as soon as possible.
Don't be tempted into not being upfront and honest on your naturalisation application about your intention to work temporarily in Saudi Arabia. If your application is successful, which if well argued may be the likely outcome, you will have a lovely payoff. You can do your ceremony and passport interview in Saudi, and you will never be at risk of losing your OCI rights. And you won't annoy your potential new employers by taking a six-week holiday back in the UK!

If I were you, that's what I would do. But yeah, again...your choice.

gainvidya
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Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:42 am

Post by gainvidya » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:20 am

I think I dont leave UK before the application in which case I dont have to tell them anything. I will need to have a chat with the Saudi employer and need to get thier reaction.

To be honest I dont want to be losing this chance as this is the only opportunity I have to sort something for my deposit to buy a property in the UK. I am tired of living in rented flat and unable to save enough in my current job.

peejay
Newbie
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:08 pm

OIC application

Post by peejay » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:27 pm

Hi Newperson, am I right in assuming that during OIC application, Indian authority only look at your British passport. So if for some reason, you travel on Indian passport after getting BC but before getting British passport - they will never know?

"Your only sin here will be travelling on an invalid Indian passport for your return to Saudi Arabia. This might bite you in the bum if you apply for your PIO or OIC, and the Indians put together that you used the Indian passport after getting UK citizenship. Again, that might be bad. Very bad."

newperson
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:36 am

Re: OIC application

Post by newperson » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:19 pm

peejay wrote:Hi Newperson, am I right in assuming that during OIC application, Indian authority only look at your British passport. So if for some reason, you travel on Indian passport after getting BC but before getting British passport - they will never know?
Suppose you're in a foreign country (Saudi Arabia), and you're applying for OCI. If you're applying for OCI, then you're most likely no longer a full Indian citizen. If you're not a full Indian citizen, how and when did you lose the nationality? But more importantly, did you travel on that Indian passport to enter Saudi Arabia from the UK after you had performed your expatriating act? If you did, that's illegal. They might not care or ask, but they might. All they have to do is ask the right questions and connect the dots.

I'm not an Indian, so I don't know the intricate ins-and-outs about OCI/PIO. I'm just following the logic. My first moral of the story: don't deceive! Besides the ethical issue, it's too much stress, and in this case, it's also not necessary. Second moral of the story: don't abet others in their deceptions. In the case of the OP, he may get the UK passport that he wants while at all times being completely honest, but that's for him to decide and to execute.

sidster007
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Travelling after naturalization

Post by sidster007 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:47 am

Hi there,

I am an Indian national and recently applied for naturalization for British Citizenship. I need to travel to Europe towards the end of November and expect to get approval for British citizenship and attend the citizenship ceremony by then. I realise that I will not have sufficient time to get my British Passport by then. My Indian passport has the required Schengen visa but will be technically invalid after I take oath for British Citizenship.

Two questions

1) Will I have a problem in coming back to the UK because I am entering on my Indian passport even though I will be a British Citizen sans a British passport. I read somewhere that the ILR stamp on my Indian passport becomes invalid after I become a British citizen and that to re enter you need a "right of abode" stamp in your foreign passport.

2) Soon after I return I will apply for an indian visa or OCI. Will my application be jeopardized if I have used my Indian passport (even though its not to travel to India) after acquiring BC. Not sure if the Indian authorities check whether you have used ur Indian passport for travel for acquiring foreign nationality even though they will definitely check when you acquired foreign nationality and so its not a good idea to travel to India on the Indian passport after getting BC.

Any advice or insight on this would be most appreciated !

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