Landing Cards & Arrival Stamps-EEA Resident Card Holders

Plum70 wrote:The border control experience differs. I for one, and travelling with my hubby, got a lot of stick from an IO at Brussels midi who was of the opinion that:

1. I needed to complete a landing card and have my passport stamped
2. My RC could be cancelled (by an IO) at any time
3. My rights of residence in the UK will seize when my RC expires; at which time I would have to "leave the country".

To say I was miffed would be an understatement... Yet, as another taster, I may join the UK/EU/EEA queue next time i'm out.

Plum this is intresting! Wooooo... its all about Experience and training!

You would think that after 4 years of the EU Directive 2004/38/EC being transposed & implemented in earnest that UKBA frontline staff would actually have a clue! I mean, do they not have dedicated (and compulsory) training for EU-related border control as they would for the UK equivalent?

My patience is wearing thin...

Has anyones been Finger-printed @ the Borders recently?
UKBA Controllers can't get it right. My German colleague told me @ work last week that his Wife ( RC card Holder) was requested by a passport controller to place her finger in a Finger print Machine while going through ‘’ALL OTHER PASSPORTS’’ Border control with Her 2yr old Daughter @ Stansted. A woman (African) with a 2 year old daughter (German Citizen).
Is this right? I couldnt get a single response to this,does it mean everyone is already getting finger-printed ?

I came back to Gatwick from a holiday in Italy with my EEA husband in the first week of May. I went through all other passports, and had filled in a landing card. I was questioned for 5 minutes at the counter (what's my husband's name, where is he from, what is his date of birth, why do I have an EEA RC). I was polite and said that my husband was standing over there (behind the barrier). She went to get him and questioned him about his employment and when we came to the uk together. She then filled out the usual detainment form and told us to take a seat. My husband wasn't allowed to leave either. I told her that this was unlawful as i have the same rights of free movement as my husband.

About 10 minutes later she came back quite sheepishly and blamed the system for my having been stopped. Apparently there is a note on their database which states that I am to be stopped and questioned upon entry. She has lodged a request that this note be removed so that I can travel freely. She took the detainment slip off me and handed me my passport.

What a joke. I'm Australian and although I have an EEA RC, but husband is actually British and we had been residing together in an EEA state for 2 years before moving to england. So the UK doesn't discriminate and treats UK citizens and their family members as appallingly as everyone else.

wet26 wrote:I came back to Gatwick from a holiday in Italy with my EEA husband in the first week of May. I went through all other passports, and had filled in a landing card. I was questioned for 5 minutes at the counter (what's my husband's name, where is he from, what is his date of birth, why do I have an EEA RC). I was polite and said that my husband was standing over there (behind the barrier). She went to get him and questioned him about his employment and when we came to the uk together. She then filled out the usual detainment form and told us to take a seat. My husband wasn't allowed to leave either. I told her that this was unlawful as i have the same rights of free movement as my husband.

About 10 minutes later she came back quite sheepishly and blamed the system for my having been stopped. Apparently there is a note on their database which states that I am to be stopped and questioned upon entry. She has lodged a request that this note be removed so that I can travel freely. She took the detainment slip off me and handed me my passport.

What a joke. I'm Australian and although I have an EEA RC, but husband is actually British and we had been residing together in an EEA state for 2 years before moving to england. So the UK doesn't discriminate and treats UK citizens and their family members as appallingly as everyone else.

Hi wet26, I know we also spoke on another topic on the Forum. Why do you think there was a note in their system to suggest that you're to be stopped upon entry? have you ever been refused entry to the UK before? Because I was once refused entry 3 years ago when I tried to enter as a visitor while pending my student visa application and the IO was not satisfied that I was seeking entry as a visitor, but that i was trying to enter the UK as a student without a valid student visa so he refused me. I later got my student visa and allowed into the country. But since then I have been having troubles entering the UK every time because of this refusal. I was questioned every time I re-entered the UK. Sometimes just for a few minutes sometimes detained for up to 30 mins or so.

But now that I am married to a EEA national, I would think that they cannot refuse my entry, right? I don't have a FP but I'm in the process of getting a RC and have got CoA from Home Office already. Do you think they may detain and question me and my husband when I come back to the UK? Because you have RC and they still detained you?!?!? This is absurb !!!

Hi babie_meg

I've never been refused entry to the UK. When I was living in Spain I applied twice for an EEA FP and was refused both times. I came to England anyway and that's when I was held at the border for 4 hours. The senior IO who interviewed me was a complete arsehole and didn't know anything about EEA regulations. When I told him that I wanted to enter the uk as the spouse of an EEA national, I think he went and googled what i was on about.

I think this was when a note must have been put on the system that I should be stopped, but I've been told that this note will be removed.

I've never overstayed in the UK and have always acted in accordance with the terms of my previous entry clearances which went in my favour. I did overstay in Spain for 18 months, but that is irrelevant.

wet26 wrote:Hi babie_meg

I've never been refused entry to the UK. When I was living in Spain I applied twice for an EEA FP and was refused both times. I came to England anyway and that's when I was held at the border for 4 hours. The senior IO who interviewed me was a complete arsehole and didn't know anything about EEA regulations. When I told him that I wanted to enter the uk as the spouse of an EEA national, I think he went and googled what i was on about.

I think this was when a note must have been put on the system that I should be stopped, but I've been told that this note will be removed.

I've never overstayed in the UK and have always acted in accordance with the terms of my previous entry clearances which went in my favour. I did overstay in Spain for 18 months, but that is irrelevant.

when you came to the UK, you were already married, right? while they detained you did they interview you and your husband separately to test if your marriage was genuine!? I don't know if they do this kind of thing at the border. Just want to be prepared what kind of questions they may ask.... Thanks

London-er wrote:Has anyones been Finger-printed @ the Borders recently?
UKBA Controllers can't get it right. My German colleague told me @ work last week that his Wife ( RC card Holder) was requested by a passport controller to place her finger in a Finger print Machine while going through ‘’ALL OTHER PASSPORTS’’ Border control with Her 2yr old Daughter @ Stansted. A woman (African) with a 2 year old daughter (German Citizen).
Is this right? I couldnt get a single response to this,does it mean everyone is already getting finger-printed ?

What are the rules on finger printing? Why do the UK require the EEA family permit before EEA2/ Is either legal? Since EEA FP is prior to RC, is this the loophole for fingerprints at this stage? Just curious.

kabuki wrote:Why do the UK require the EEA family permit before EEA2/ Is either legal?

Each member state is entitled to require an entry "visa" in the absence of a residence card, see Article 5(2).

Fingerprinting of non-EEA family members of EU nationals is lawful as long as the same applies to UK/EU/EFTA nationals which invariably doesn't.

Perhaps, if the UKBA highly suspected a public security/safety threat then this may be lawful.

Ireland fingerprints non-EEA national family members of EEA nationals, as a condition of issuing the Residence Card.

Since Ireland does not fingerprint Irish nationals, I feel this is in breach of Article 24.

I complained to the European Commission who sent this reply.

babie_meg wrote: when you came to the UK, you were already married, right? while they detained you did they interview you and your husband separately to test if your marriage was genuine!? I don't know if they do this kind of thing at the border. Just want to be prepared what kind of questions they may ask.... Thanks

Yes, I was already married, for one month to be exact, but we had been living together for 18 months (or more I think) before that. We were interviewed separately, but he was only questioned for 15 minutes max.

Even when I came back from holiday to italy with my husband in May I was asked questions about our relationship. It's a joke. How many people in sham marriages take romantic holidays together?

wet26 wrote:

babie_meg wrote: when you came to the UK, you were already married, right? while they detained you did they interview you and your husband separately to test if your marriage was genuine!? I don't know if they do this kind of thing at the border. Just want to be prepared what kind of questions they may ask.... Thanks

Yes, I was already married, for one month to be exact, but we had been living together for 18 months (or more I think) before that. We were interviewed separately, but he was only questioned for 15 minutes max.

Even when I came back from holiday to italy with my husband in May I was asked questions about our relationship. It's a joke. How many people in sham marriages take romantic holidays together?

exactly!! i think it's totally ridiculous that they still question you about your relationship after you got your RC. I am not sure they are allowed to...
i have a feeling the same will happen to me.. given that i was refused entry before (2.5 years ago).. i'm sure they're going to suspect that it's not a genuine marriage. they need to have some common sense. people who are in sham marriage don't usually go on holidays together. they don't travel together because in reality they live separate lives. and i don't think the people who are involved in sham marriages are very well off usually (they wouldn't be marrying for money otherwise) so don't think they can afford going on holidays over and over again..?! if i'm travelling abroad over and over again with the same person surely the relationship is genuine?!

by the way, I think you should make a complaint to UKBA and make them aware of your EU rights and what they did to you was unacceptable and against the law. you should complain to your MP and SOLVIT. I have been complaining a lot to the Home Office. and I have found a number to complain about immigration officers if they become unreasonable.

Sham marriages prevail amongst the rich and poor; tall and short; thin and fat; white, brown, yellow purple... and I bet you will find shammers who travel together same as genuine couples.

The point is that when does the questioning stop? We have been living together for 2.5 years, married for 1, had just got back from venice after celebrating my birthday there and I have to come back to be england and be interrogated, even though I am in possession of an RC. I've already proven my entitlement to an RC, surely that should be enough?

wet26 wrote:The point is that when does the questioning stop? We have been living together for 2.5 years, married for 1, had just got back from venice after celebrating my birthday there and I have to come back to be england and be interrogated, even though I am in possession of an RC. I've already proven my entitlement to an RC, surely that should be enough?

by the way, when you applied for your RC, did you just submit your marriage certificate and your husband's employment proof (payslips/employment contract)? did you have any troubles getting the RC? and why were you refused for FP?

yeah I know.. I guess they will always have the power to question whoever they want if they think it is necessary... why don't you get your husband to complain to SOLVIT because he's a EU citizen he can complain and file a case with them about this.

babie_meg wrote:
by the way, when you applied for your RC, did you just submit your marriage certificate and your husband's employment proof (payslips/employment contract)? did you have any troubles getting the RC? and why were you refused for FP?

yeah I know.. I guess they will always have the power to question whoever they want if they think it is necessary... why don't you get your husband to complain to SOLVIT because he's a EU citizen he can complain and file a case with them about this.

I submitted the marriage certificate, his employment contract, payslips, P60s, our lease in Spain and the UK, letters from his employer confirming he was employed in Spain (therefore exercising treaty rights), bank statements for Spanish accounts, bank statements for uk accounts, utility bills, basically anything official to to evidence that we had been living together in Spain and the UK.

I had no problems getting my RC because we provided plenty of proof that our marriage is genuine and I was able to prove that husband was exercising treaty rights in Spain for 2 years and was therefore an EEA National (he is British).

My FP was refused because the Surinder Singh judgment applied in my case and the embassy in Madrid was clueless. I applied the first time as unmarried partner, but that was refused because we had not been living together for long enough. The second time was refused because they said my husband was not a qualified person, even though I had proven that he was (we were married at the time).

wet26 wrote:

babie_meg wrote:
by the way, when you applied for your RC, did you just submit your marriage certificate and your husband's employment proof (payslips/employment contract)? did you have any troubles getting the RC? and why were you refused for FP?

yeah I know.. I guess they will always have the power to question whoever they want if they think it is necessary... why don't you get your husband to complain to SOLVIT because he's a EU citizen he can complain and file a case with them about this.

I submitted the marriage certificate, his employment contract, payslips, P60s, our lease in Spain and the UK, letters from his employer confirming he was employed in Spain (therefore exercising treaty rights), bank statements for Spanish accounts, bank statements for uk accounts, utility bills, basically anything official to to evidence that we had been living together in Spain and the UK.

I had no problems getting my RC because we provided plenty of proof that our marriage is genuine and I was able to prove that husband was exercising treaty rights in Spain for 2 years and was therefore an EEA National (he is British).

My FP was refused because the Surinder Singh judgment applied in my case and the embassy in Madrid was clueless. I applied the first time as unmarried partner, but that was refused because we had not been living together for long enough. The second time was refused because they said my husband was not a qualified person, even though I had proven that he was (we were married at the time).

sorry it's me again... when you were questioned for 4 hours when you first arrived in the UK, I guess you had your marriage certificate and all the documents you mentioned above with you at the time, so why did it take 4 hours for them to believe that you're a genuine family member of a EEA national? and when they questioned you, what sort of questions did they ask? like did they ask how you met your husband, what you were doing in Spain, how well you knew each other etc..? any personal questions? Did they ask you why your FP applications were refused (did they know this before you told them)? I just want to know so that I can be prepared what kind of questions they may ask me.

when I go to France next week I will be bringing our marriage certificate, the CoA, the letter from HO asking me to return my passport within 21 days (means the RC is almost ready), my husband's current payslip and letter from his employer, our tenancy agreements, mobile phone bills over the last 2.5 years showing constant texts/calls between the 2 of us, bank statements of last 2 years showing same address, travel bookings of holidays together in the past 2 years, holiday and family photos on my camera - do you think this will be sufficient to prove that I am not a party of marriage of convenience and that I am entitled to free movement right under EU law? Also i was refused entry once 3 years ago - is this relevant? Can they now refuse me again on this ground... I don't think so right? because I think even if someone is an illegal entrant once they enter a genuine marriage to a EEA national they will then gain the right of residence in the UK?

maybe you would wonder how i managed to go on holidays and come back in the past 2 years if I was refused 3 years ago and am now worried to be refused again.. because basically I didn't come back through the uK border. I always came back through Republic of Ireland because I didn't have immigration issues with Ireland so they also let me in, and then Ireland and UK are common travel area so no passport control between the 2 countries so I managed to come back. So this is the 1st time in 3 years after my last entry refusal that I am coming back thru the UK border.

I don't know why it took them 4 hours to decide to let me in. Eventually they gave me a letter stating that I could stay in the country for 2 weeks. They needed to refer my case higher, because they did not think that my husband had been exercising treaty rights, and they did not think the surinder singh judgment applied to me. They tried to trick me several times into saying that my marriage was one of convenience.

They asked me the questions you listed below, what I was doing Spain, they went through my passport and questioned me on every stamp and visa (of which there are over 40 as I've travelled a lot), what did i do when i previously visited the uk, what I did when I previously lived in the UK, who did i live with, what was my address, what I intend to do, what my husband does, what he intends to do, what his parents do, where I will live, where he will live, what is his parents house like, what is their address, what are their names, his siblings, their ages, where we lived in spain, where we got married, when we got married, why we got married, why we got married in the US, why did i go to spain, what did i do when i got there, who did i live with, why we left spain, why we are in the uk, why was husband in spain, who is his employer, duration of employment, his reason for returning to uk, the list goes on.

I told them I had been twice refused for an FP in Madrid, I assumed it was on their system anyway.

Whatever you do, do not lie. They tried to catch me out several times, but because I was telling the truth they couldn't catch me.

I imagine they will make a call to Liverpool to find out if your RC application has been approved anyway.

Returned to the UK yesterday from Gare du Nord. My experience at the UK immigration desk:

Me (produced passport w/out landing card)
IO: "Have you filled out a landing card?"
Me: "I don't need one nor an entry stamp"
IO (looks in my passport): "You have a Residence Card and not a 'Right of Abode' status therefore you do need a landing card and I have to stamp your passport"
Me: "No, I do not based on the EU Directive and its transposition into UK law"
IO: "Yes, you do. I have worked as an IO for over 14 years and know the UK immigration rules and if you do not have ROA you have to fill a landing card and I have to stamp your passport..."
Me (interjecting): Under EU law I do not require a landing card...
IO (interrupting): You do and i will have to stamp your passport. (He stamps my passport and says) "and I can make you fill out a landing card if I want to"
Me (with a touch of frustration, cynicism and a smirk on my face): I will be happy to fill one out if you so desire"
IO: "I've already stamped your passport so that's fine (he hands it back)
Me (grabbed my passport and walked off; body temperature 40C+; heart rate over 100 BPM!)

For future trips, I thought I could pull up and print info to corroborate my claim from the EU Directive and Immigration EEA Reg. 2006 but having read through on the UKBA site (under policy and law) there's no mention of landing cards or entry and exit stamps??? I could have sworn I read it a couple of years back!

Any pointers?

P.S: Just found the details... initially used the 'find' function on the open document which didn't pull anything up for whatever reason. For the benefit of others it is: Chapter 11 (3) of the Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006 and Article 5(3) of the EU Directive 2004/38/EC

Info used to be in http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... onsmanual/

You may want to consider to complain to the 'Border force customer service unit ' http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/conta ... omplaints/

Is this a 'tried and tested' means? It's all such a struggle which needn't be...

I just wonder who in the UKBA is fully aware of the EU law and why frontline staff haven't been comprehensively trained. I mean, what's so difficult to understand and implement?!

While i consider my options I will be printing off 100 odd pages of the EU Directive and it's UK transposition + taking a highlighter on my next trip.

We submitted a complaint to them about two weeks ago because of a stamp in my wife's passport. She got a telephone call from the head of the Border Forces at Manchester airport today apologizing for the incident. He asked for any further information regarding the IO because the stamp doesn't have any number that would identify that person (the stamp on the EEA FP for instance, also from Manchester airport, does have one). My wife should have asked for the name and the identifying number of that IO on that day but she didn't. We will get a letter from them which we can show to IOs in the future.

I do not know if they will put much effort in rectifying this issue but at least the complaint was dealt with and did cause a reaction.

Thanks 86ti. That's very useful information and I shall be writing to the regional unit shortly. Will post any feedback for the benefit of folks wanting to do the same.

Don't forget to include a copy of the stamp(s) and your residence card as evidence.

EDIT: Do your stamps have a number in the second row (between 'IMMIGRATION OFFICER' and the date)?