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Born after 1983 to a British mother

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

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uvb76
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Born after 1983 to a British mother

Post by uvb76 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:28 pm

Hi,

I was born in South Africa in 1984 (so I'm 25) to a mother with dual nationality: South African and British.

My mother:
* Born in Salisbury, Rhodesia (Now Harare, Zimbabwe) in 1950
* Got a British passport because her grandfather was born in the UK (http://ukinzimbabwe.fco.gov.uk/en/help- ... s/Eligible) - so that would make her a British citizen by descent (according to the definition given under "Terms Explained" at http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... tizenship/).
* Worked in the UK for 4 years

I emailed someone in Pretoria, South Africa from the British FCO (British Foreign & Commonwealth Office) with the above information and they said I'd only be able to apply for one if my mother registered my birth at a Consulate, but I don't see how that would have been done:

* One can't register a birth with the British authorities in South Africa (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentc ... /DG_175698). It says to contact the Foreign & Commonwealth Office.

* The Foreign & Commonwealth Office site says that they can't register births in South Africa: "The standard of registration in these countries [incl. South Africa] is similar to that of the UK" (http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-liv ... ng-a-birth)

Anyone got an idea about my chances of getting a passport?

mrlookforward
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Post by mrlookforward » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:03 pm

John will give a precise answer. But it seems that you do not qualify for a british passport as you are not british citizen.

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Post by Backer » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:25 am

I recall reading that if a British Citizen by Decent lives for over 3 years in the UK he/she can pass on their citizenship to theur children.

So if you born after your mother lived in the UK it might be that you are entitled to British citizenship by decent as well.

I'm sure John or JAJ can provide more reliable information.

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Post by John » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:44 am

Hi, I see reference to my name, but sorry, this is way above me. Hopefully JAJ will spot this topic and post. He is much more of an expert on complicated issues like this. It may or may not be a factor that your mother was born in what was then Rhodesia, which was then controlled by the British. and before Ian Smith did what he did.

On the face of it you were born outside the UK to a mother who was British by Descent, so I cannot see that you could possibly be British. But there might be other issues in play here.

For the record, in case it is important, your maternal grandfather, where and when was he born?
John

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Post by Backer » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:10 am

British Citizenship by descent
'British Citizenship by descent' is the category for the children born outside the UK to a British citizen. Rules for acquiring British citizenship by descent depend on when the person was born.

From 1983
A child born outside the UK on or after 1 January 1983 will automatically acquire British citizenship by descent if either parent is a British citizen otherwise than by descent at the time of the birth.

Only one parent needs to be British otherwise than by descent - either the father or the mother.
As a general rule, an unmarried father cannot pass on British citizenship automatically in the case of children born before 1 July 2006. Although, if the parents marry subsequent to the birth, the child normally will become a British citizen at that point if legitimated by the marriage and the father was eligible to pass on British citizenship. Further, if the unmarried British father was domiciled in a country that treated (at the date of birth of the child born before 1 July 2006) a child born to unmarried parents in the same way as a child born to married parents, then the father passed on British citizenship automatically to his child, even though the child was born before 1 July 2006 to unmarried parents.[1] Such countries include Jamaica and New Zealand [2],Brazil[3] and Hungary[4].
Failing the above, the child can be registered as British if it would have been British if parents were married and application is made before the child is 18.
Where the parent is a British citizen by descent additional requirements apply. In the most common scenario, the parent is normally expected to have lived in the UK for three years and apply for the child to be registered as a British citizen within 12 months of the birth.
For British nationality purposes, the Isle of Man and Channel Islands are treated as though they were part of the UK.
Before 21 May 2002, British Overseas Territories were treated as 'overseas' for nationality purposes. The exceptions were Gibraltar who were British citizens per the British Nationality Act 1981; and the Falkland Islands who were granted British citzenship following the Falklands War per the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983 . For children born on or after 21 May 2002 in a British Overseas Territory (other than the Sovereign Base Areas of Cyprus) there is an entitlement to British citizenship on the same basis as UK-born children.
Children born overseas to parents on Crown Service are normally granted British citizenship otherwise than by descent. In other words, their status is the same as it would have been had they been born in the UK.
In exceptional cases, the Home Secretary may register a child of parents who are British by descent as a British citizen under discretionary provisions, for example if the child is stateless.

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Post by uvb76 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:09 pm

My maternal grandfather was born in Rhodesia as well - about 1920 or so. His father was born in the UK - so I'm guessing he got his British citizenship by descent as well.

At the moment I guess my biggest problem is that I wasn't registered as a British citizen! "Residence 3(2): Child must be registered before his/her 1st birthday" at http://ukinsouthafrica.fco.gov.uk/en/he ... istrations. But as you say, John, just maybe there's something that applies to Southern Rhodesia which could help.

As Backer said, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law it says:
* "Where the parent is a British citizen by descent additional requirements apply. In the most common scenario, the parent is normally expected to have lived in the UK for three years and ------->>apply for the child to be registered as a British citizen within 12 months of the birth.<<--------"

But it also says:
* "In exceptional cases, the Home Secretary may register a child of parents who are British by descent as a British citizen under discretionary provisions, for example if the child is stateless."
My sister is a British citizen via naturalisation, but I'm not sure they'll care about that.

The person connected to the British FCO that handles SA passport enquiries reckons I should try apply for a passport, based on the information I've given. I'm asking her more questions... don't know exactly how much someone like her knows.

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Re: Born after 1983 to a British mother

Post by JAJ » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:01 am

uvb76 wrote:Hi,

I was born in South Africa in 1984 (so I'm 25) to a mother with dual nationality: South African and British.

My mother:
* Born in Salisbury, Rhodesia (Now Harare, Zimbabwe) in 1950
* Got a British passport because her grandfather was born in the UK (http://ukinzimbabwe.fco.gov.uk/en/help- ... s/Eligible) - so that would make her a British citizen by descent (according to the definition given under "Terms Explained" at http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... tizenship/).
* Worked in the UK for 4 years
You don't normally get a passport because of a UK-born grandfather and Southern Rhodesia was treated as a country rather than a colony (from 1949) for nationality purposes only.

There were special provisions for the establishment and dissolution of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland and also the post UDI situation. But based on the plain facts shown I cannot see how mother could have been a UK citizen to begin with, unless there are other ties to the UK or a place which was a colony that we haven't been told about.

It's unusual - but not unknown - for a British passport to be issued by mistake.

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Re: Born after 1983 to a British mother

Post by uvb76 » Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:59 am

But based on the plain facts shown I cannot see how mother could have been a UK citizen to begin with, unless there are other ties to the UK or a place which was a colony that we haven't been told about.
At http://ukinzimbabwe.fco.gov.uk/en/help- ... s/Eligible it says:

To claim British citizenship and passport facilities through your birth in Zimbabwe, you must prove the following:
* Applicant must have been born in Zimbabwe after 1 January 1949
* Applicant’s father must have been in Zimbabwe born before 12 September 1923
* Applicant’s paternal grandfather must have been born in the UK

So just based on that, she was able to become a UK citizen and get a passport. And I'm almost sure she was even able to apply for citizenship + passport when she was over 18. But I don't know if her birth in Zimbabwe is going to help me or not. Maybe that'll involve wading around in a lot of law... or I could just apply for the passport. In the undertakings section (section 8 ) of the application form, it wants me to confirm that I'm a:

* British citizen or
* British Overseas Territories citizen or
* British Overseas citizen or
* British subject or
* British protected person
(of which I'm none - to my knowledge).

Then again, I don't know if my mother would've been any of those when she applied (Zimbabwe uses the same application form).
Application form: http://centralcontent.fco.gov.uk/resour ... fs/form-c1
Notes for application form: http://centralcontent.fco.gov.uk/resour ... m-c1-notes

Maybe I could put a couple of things in the "other information" (section 7) section to motivate my claim. I must mention that my mother worked and lived in the UK for a few years and could maybe add that my sister naturalised as a British citizen recently and is still living there - or that might make me look too desperate.

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Re: Born after 1983 to a British mother

Post by JAJ » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:00 am

uvb76 wrote: At http://ukinzimbabwe.fco.gov.uk/en/help- ... s/Eligible it says:

To claim British citizenship and passport facilities through your birth in Zimbabwe, you must prove the following:
* Applicant must have been born in Zimbabwe after 1 January 1949
* Applicant’s father must have been in Zimbabwe born before 12 September 1923
* Applicant’s paternal grandfather must have been born in the UK
This information may be on the British Embassy website, but it appears to be wrong.

Firstly, in order to be British by descent, one could be born before or after 1949.

Second, the reference to 1923 is when Rhodesia got "responsible government", however the British Nationality Act 1948 defined the UK & Colonies based on the 1949 frontiers. Rhodesia pre-1923 counts no more than Australia pre-1901, New Zealand pre-1907, and so on.

I would ask the British Embassy how this advice relates to the British Nationality Act 1948. Look at the Act yourself, http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1948a

Unless some subsequent Act made provision for Rhodesia, I cannot see how your mother was entitled to a British passport.

UNLESS your mother was registered as a UK citizen with the British High Commission in Rhodesia. IF this is the case (she would have a certificate to prove it) and IF it was done before 28 October 1971, then she would probably be a British citizen otherwise than by descent.

OR - was she married to a British man at any point, she might have registered as a UK citizen that way.

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Post by uvb76 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:10 pm

I found out from my mother today that she was initially denied a British passport when she applied at the Pretoria High Commission. Some time later in England, in 1976, she went to the Consulate there and they said she was eligible for a passport, and that's how she got one. She said she wasn't registered as a British citizen beforehand. Sorry, it's difficult to give more, complete information than that for now, since she's in England for a couple of weeks... but soon I'll be able to get a whole lot more info together. Her younger brother was also not eligible when he tried at the Pretoria High Commission, but some time later he was able to get one (will need to find out more!). Meanwhile, her older brother was not able to get a passport and still doesn't have one. So, there's a chance that another Act could've come into being.

I almost qualified for an Irish passport (my great grandmother was born there), but my father didn't register as an Irish citizen before my birth (or before 1986) so I'm guessing that's out of the question... and that it wouldn't help if he registered for a passport now.

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Post by JAJ » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:14 pm

As far as I am aware, there are two special ways for a Southern Rhodesian to have become a CUKC after 1949.

The first is probably unusual, but when Southern Rhodesia re-established its nationality code on 1.1.64 a person who was a citizen of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland who did not become a Southern Rhodesia citizen on 1.1.64 became a CUKC.

If you want to know more, you'll have to find the relevant Federation and Southern Rhodesia Acts. They are not available online.


The second way is that when Rhodesia declared UDI in 1965, the British made special provision for Southern Rhodesians of British descent who intended to move to the UK to be registered as CUKCs. A general reference is here:
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/comm ... ationality

If your mother acquired CUKC this way, she would have a registration certificate.


Or she could have obtained her CUKC under the general provisions for registration of minor children, again, there would be a registration certificate.

Or her British passport may have been issued by mistake.

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Post by uvb76 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:00 pm

One small, extra piece of information: I was looking at my mom's old passports, and her first British passport, issued in 1977 (at the passport office in London) says:

National status:
British Subject
Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies

Her next passport, issued in 1987 (British consulate in Cape Town), says:
National status:
British Citizen

I don't really understand it... at which point did she become a British citizen? Apparently she didn't receive a registration certificate for being registered as a British citizen (I asked her again) ... but surely there must be a record of when she became one?!

(BTW: in response to what you wrote earlier, JAJ: she wasn't married to anyone before getting her passport - her husband-to-be was South African)

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Post by uvb76 » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:23 pm

So, how would I be able to find out if my mother got citizenship by descent or otherwise than by descent? She reckons she just registered for a passport and just got it, but is there a way to find out? She's in the UK for a week longer, so that could be helpful.

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Post by uvb76 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:06 pm

I'm currently seeking the help an immigration specialist to dive into all this info for me, and will feedback info as I get it.

For the meanwhile, at: http://ukinzimbabwe.fco.gov.uk/en/help- ... s/Eligible it says:
"To claim British citizenship and passport facilities through your birth in Zimbabwe, you must prove the following....".
Since my mother claimed her British passport that way, could that mean she got it "otherwise than by descent" since she got it through her birth in Zimbabwe?

Also, at the bottom of this page ("British citizenship through mother" i.e. by descent): http://ukinzimbabwe.fco.gov.uk/en/help- ... itizenship it says:
"Please note that once you are registered, the status is not transmissible to your spouse or children."
...whereas for the way my mom got it, it doesn't mention that it's not transmissible.

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Post by JAJ » Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:11 am

Is this immigration specialist a UK immigration lawyer?

I cannot see how your mother could have become a UK citizen without being registered as such which means one of two things. Either she has lost/forgotten her registration certificate or her British passport was issued by mistake in 1977.

But of course, I could be wrong.

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Post by uvb76 » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:48 am

He's an immigration lawyer regulated by the OISC.

Yeh, it is quite an odd clause. My mom's brother was able to get citizenship in the same way as well (born after 1949), but the oldest brother born before 1949 was not!
She seems pretty certain that she didn't receive a registration certificate. When she was resident in England, she had a temporary British passport (issued especially for Rhodesians, apparently) and as she was about to go to renew it for the third time, the immigration officer in London realised that she'd be eligible for a full citizenship + passport through that clause (whereas the previous two officers did not realise!).

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Post by JAJ » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:29 am

uvb76 wrote:He's an immigration lawyer regulated by the OISC.

Yeh, it is quite an odd clause. My mom's brother was able to get citizenship in the same way as well (born after 1949), but the oldest brother born before 1949 was not!
She seems pretty certain that she didn't receive a registration certificate. When she was resident in England, she had a temporary British passport (issued especially for Rhodesians, apparently) and as she was about to go to renew it for the third time, the immigration officer in London realised that she'd be eligible for a full citizenship + passport through that clause (whereas the previous two officers did not realise!).
I would be interested to know the outcome.

Do bear in mind that if your mother automatically became a UK citizen prior to 1983, lawyer should be able to explain (in writing) under exactly which section of which Act that occurred.

You will need this to support any application for British citizenship you wish to make.

If you can't get this information, then in the absence of any registration certificate, then that would lead to the conclusion your mother's passport was issued by mistake.

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Post by uvb76 » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:11 am

With regard to the way in which my mother got her citizenship, the lawyer is going to search through the Nationality acts for me to see if it's classified as citizenship by birth or by descent (I'm sure he'd write down his findings as proof). But I'm sure other avenues will be explored as well.

I'll keep you posted!

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Post by JAJ » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:56 am

uvb76 wrote:With regard to the way in which my mother got her citizenship, the lawyer is going to search through the Nationality acts for me to see if it's classified as citizenship by birth or by descent (I'm sure he'd write down his findings as proof). But I'm sure other avenues will be explored as well.
Unclear what these "other avenues" could be (either your mother is British or she isn't). Will be interested to know how you get on.

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Post by caspar » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:03 am

hi, sorry to revive an old thread, but I would be very interested to know the outcome of this.

Thanks!

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Post by Christophe » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:29 am

uvb76 wrote:One small, extra piece of information: I was looking at my mom's old passports, and her first British passport, issued in 1977 (at the passport office in London) says:

National status:
British Subject
Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies

Her next passport, issued in 1987 (British consulate in Cape Town), says:
National status:
British Citizen

I don't really understand it... at which point did she become a British citizen? Apparently she didn't receive a registration certificate for being registered as a British citizen (I asked her again) ... but surely there must be a record of when she became one?!
That would have simply been as a result of the 1981 British Nationality Act, which came into force at the start of 1983. Among other changes – and even this is a over-simplification – the basic nationality status of people connected with the UK became "British citizen", and the term "Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies" ceased to be used. So the change was automatic, as it were and, for most people, was simple a change in terminology.

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Post by caspar » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:55 pm

Just thought I'd post and say that I managed to become a british citizen and acquire a passport. Thanks to all for their help.

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