Non eea told by UKBA to return passport to cancel resid card

Jus a quick update on ridiculous ukba claims.

Client had two valid passports and after having the first rc issued in 2008, applied for another one to be issued in the newer one.

The ukba did issue the second one but asked to return the first valid passport with valid rc to be cancelled!

Loads of ballox! I will write to ukba to simply ask to quote legislation which allows for this. The only way the rc can be revoked is under Reg 20 but they only refer to this situation. Ukba can revoke the card if the person ceases to be a fam member or the eea national is not a qualified person, but to dlask to cancel the confirmation of the actual right in the passport does NOT make sense.

It is not the card which confers the right but the status and the rc is just a confirmation. I had an email from a deputy chief caseworker claiming that ukba "discharged their duty" by issuing the first card and that the second card leaves it open to abuse by the applicant (selling passport on etc) )))

I said that:
1) the regulations are strict and once the applicant provides the requested docs, the ukba must issue the rc without any quakification;
2) to justify refusal by claiming potential abuse is not a good enough answer and is illegal to say the least;
3) most people with expired passports but valid rc in them dont get requested to send in the old rc to have it cancelled;
4) the ukba's trend of issuing rc on a4 papers leaves it open for the rc to be used with multiple passports, whats the difference;
5) what if a person turned up at the border with the earlier valid passport with the rc cancelled, wouldnt they let him in?

As long as the person is a family member of an eea national qualified person, he is NOT SUBJECT TO IMMIGRATION CONTROL, how can this bureaucratic exerise of cancelling a valid rc confirming that status make any difference.

Anyway, i will write to them and ask to tell me on what groubds they demanded all this. I will tell them that i dont mind them updating the system but the passports will not be sent in for cancellation or anyth of the sort.

smth along the lines they wrote "pls note ur old rc are not valid anymore and u wont be able to leave/enter the uk with them. Also, if u can send the passports back for those rc to be cancelled/destroyed"

I liked especially that u cant "leave" the uk with those rc )) as if anyone check the validity of the docs upon leaving the uk inthe first place, the doors are wide open upon exit, and wide shut upon re entry.

Let me know what u think but i hate it when the executive usurps the role of the legislative.

I partly c the point of their argument but its not convincing enough and has no legal basis unfortunately

Who is being awkward? You or UKBA?

Most folk on here would be happy with just one RC but your client wants/needs two?

Now that is, as you say, a load of ballox (sic)

Don't waste your time or UKBAs arguing the toss over this. Do as they ask and they will have that little bit of extra time to sort out someone who hasn't even got the one RC.

Years ago I had a similar incident, but then the IND asked for the previously issued Residence Document before issuing the new one, so we had no choice. This was before May 2006 when Directive 2004/38 came into force, by the way.

In the case described by mcovet, I would simply ignore the request from UKBA and wait to see if they will send a reminder. If they do, then you can ask them what the legal basis for their request is (where I agree with mcovet that probably there isn't any).
Furthermore, why should you need to take the risk to send a passport through the post and back, with no benefit for yourself at stake. Tell them that a UKBA official can make an appointment to visit you, etc.

I agree with fysicus. Wait and see how serious they are about all this.

Keffers, u have missed the point entirely.

To the rest, ukba wouldnt send a reminder because the letter is worded very cautiously.

There is no way i would suggest that they send any important docs again for no reason as fysicus says, it is a non sense. The ONLY problem i see is upon entry on the first valid passport with the rc, the IO may scan and see it is invalid/revoked! Even though the client would prove he is entItled to enter, the IO may either start a long discussion to get to the bottom of why this happened, or simply revoke the rc on the spot (illegally of course) and advise that client should travel on new one in the future.

Apart from the above potential encounter at the border i see no way that anyone can force resending important docs back just for a minor illegal alteration.

Another point the ukba are missing is that the first passport will be sent in for the perm res application. Whether it has a revoked rc inside it or not wouldnt matter! So what is the point in asking to cancel it? They couldnt then ask send us your second passport as thats arbitrary and illegal.

I asked IOs on numerous occasions what info have they got about the entrants but they are very secretive. I was thinking of doing a freedom of info request but feel it will be covered by privilege or smth.

Anyway, shall i reply to ukba's letter or ignore it? I kind of feel that they should at least know that what they'd requested is illegal and i doubt that a letter would hurt.

On a practical note, if an IO revokes the first rc upon entry, what action should i take? Breach of statutory duty? The action by IO would be clearly illegal but what other options? Once it's done it's done and the cl will end up sending the docs to ukba for pr with a revoked rc.

I will advise to travel on the second one but y should the cl have no hoice, his coutry allows two valid passports simultaneously... Anyway...at least they improved processing times )))

Be practical. I really see no need to do anything for now.

I also see no reason why it should be a burden or a problem for your client to use only the new passport/RC (as a precaution) when entering the UK. On all other occasions where a passport is needed he still have the choice, for example when applying for PR.

The reason why my wife got a second passport years ago was simply because the old passport (which actually is still valid today!) was running out of empty visa pages, and so she doesn't use it anymore for travelling.

Can you explain what you mean by the letter is worded very cautiously? Is there some implicit hint that bad things may happen if you don't comply with their request?

Well, usually there are very good reasons why someone needs to have more than one passport obviously also with all of them being 'fully functional'. Is that the case here?

@fisycus
When i say worded cautiously i mean it is not requesting the passport to be sent back but rather asking that if it is convenient could u pls etc. Thats because they r themselves unsure as to the legality of the request

@86ti
I dont think there is any impropriety going on here, rather the cl initially sent his first passport back to his home country in relation to some military service matters and thought it'd be convenient to have another rc in the new passport. There is nothing more to it.

Funny enough i have another client who is a dual national and applied for a rc to be placed in his second nationality passport... I guess the ukba will come up with the same crap, but in this case cl doesnt want to use two passports when travelling to certain countries for security reasons so needs to flash only 1 at a time when leaving certain countries.

Wonder if they will issue a rc first and ask for the first passport or if they will ask him to send in the old one first before completing the application.

At the end of the day, if someone wants to abuse the system, they would find a way by now and this is not a case here.

The deputy chief caseworker who emailed me said he'd never heard of such a request for 2 rc before but maintained this may pose a security risk for potential abuse of this route... I replied that if that is so, dont u find it strange that this had been the first time u'd encountered suh a request and if it had been potentially possible, u would have had plenty of such cases in the past.

Anyway, i didnt enter into a long debate with him, rather indicated that their view has no legal basis.

It could be convenient to have a stand alone rc to be used with numerous passports, but for various reasons such as it mentions nationality (in my second cl case) and that schengen visas are troublesome to obtain i dont recommend it.

I will wait for the outcome of the second cl dual national apllication and then see what action to take, may need a slap on the wrist.

Didn't mean to insinuate any impropriety. I just thought that a good argument as to why two passports are held would be the easiest way to shut them up. It doesn't need much imagination to see why having more than one passport is perfectly legitimate.

mcovet wrote:When i say worded cautiously i mean it is not requesting the passport to be sent back but rather asking that if it is convenient could u pls etc. Thats because they r themselves unsure as to the legality of the request.

And that's exactly why I would think you shouldn't waste any more energy on that matter.

I c whay u mean with ignoring them. How would showing the legality of having two passports simultaneously (which they dont dispute) and reasons for having them help to prove the point though? They will say, fair enough but travel on the one with the rc card in pls.

The arguments are circular and without substance worth ignoring but as i said, the problem with that is the IO's "competence" at the border and potential unpleasant explanations so... in this case not much to do and the only point of writing to them is to DEMAND that they do NOT cancel the first rc! Otherwise ignore

86ti wrote:Didn't mean to insinuate any impropriety. I just thought that a good argument as to why two passports are held would be the easiest way to shut them up. It doesn't need much imagination to see why having more than one passport is perfectly legitimate.

mcovet wrote:When i say worded cautiously i mean it is not requesting the passport to be sent back but rather asking that if it is convenient could u pls etc. Thats because they r themselves unsure as to the legality of the request.

And that's exactly why I would think you shouldn't waste any more energy on that matter.

Keffers, u have missed the point entirely.

Really? What happens when the oldest passport / RC expires? Does the holder become less functional in his day-to-day life? Will he need another RC to cope?

Are they passports for different countries?

Other than being awkward or wanting two passports for an ulterior motive, I really can't see any reason why your client should be getting so uptight about it all.

fortunately, keffers, you're only "black on white" letters on this forum and noone has to take your opinion seriously.

claiming there is an "ulterior motive" to the actions by a person without any proof whatsoever is the same as me calling you an idiot with the little evidence of your thought process you displayed here both of which would clearly be unfair, so just let's stop being mean.

I would love to issue you with a RC (or whoever you are helping) but unfortunately it's the same story for everyone, you submit an application and wait in the line. If you are eligible you will get it and stop being envious of other people who have problems on a different level, even if you disagree with them. If you were in their situation and wouldn't pursue the conduct they are pursuing that's your choice, but you are not in their position so stop looking over the shoulder. If you have a problem, post it here and people would try to help, don't criticize others for protecting their rights EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE! that's pathetic.

keffers wrote:

Keffers, u have missed the point entirely.

Really? What happens when the oldest passport / RC expires? Does the holder become less functional in his day-to-day life? Will he need another RC to cope?

Are they passports for different countries?

Other than being awkward or wanting two passports for an ulterior motive, I really can't see any reason why your client should be getting so uptight about it all.

Mmmmm.

Still no elaboration on the mysterious case of why someone needs two passports and two RCs. You never know who might be reading ths forum, so mum's the word. I understand.

Just an attempt at sarcasm and childish insults. Not very professional I must say.

But life is full of mysteries and I guess the case of the double RC user will never be solved.

If people stopped being so petty about their 'rights' and trying to twist and turn the system to suit themselves, UKBA would have much more time to issue RCs etc to those who who are completely up front and not on some sort of mission to prove a point.

Evenin' all.

to make this short, it is illegal to have 2 passports of same nationality valid, why in the wworld wouldsomeone need 2 RC, it sounds dodgy, also ukb should have asked the bearer to return the old RC to collect new RC.
Why argue about this, the trueth is clear

daddy wrote:Why argue about this, the trueth is clear

With this sentence I do agree, but the truth is very different from what daddy thinks!

daddy wrote:to make this short, it is illegal to have 2 passports of same nationality valid

You really need to back up your claims. As a matter of fact, some countries do allow that, at least under certain circumstances, e.g. here some info for Austria and Germany. Those pages also give examples why a second passport would be needed.

keffers wrote:Still no elaboration on the mysterious case of why someone needs two passports and two RCs.

What makes you think that anyone owes you an explanation of anybody's personal circumstances?

If people stopped being so petty about their 'rights' and trying to twist and turn the system to suit themselves, UKBA would have much more time to issue RCs etc to those who who are completely up front and not on some sort of mission to prove a point.

If people stopped being "petty" about their rights reminding the system that it is not at liberty to do as it pleases but rather to operate within confines of the law, then you and everyone else who are so "up front" with the system (and so averse of the "petty" people) would most likely be waiting for their RCs etc. for much longer (and would be asked to satisfy more requirements and provide more documents during applications etc. etc. etc.).

If people stopped being "petty" about their rights reminding the system that it is not at liberty to do as it pleases but rather to operate within confines of the law

And therein lies the problem. Whose interpretation? Why waste time proving a point against the 'system'? People should just move on. Unless a genuine reason can be given as t why someone needs two valid passports (presumably in the same name) with two valid Rcs, then what is the point of arguing the toss.

What happens when one of the passports becomes out of date? Another challenge to the 'system' and a new campaign to have another RC issued in a new second passport?

The client wants to visit Lybia an has an Israel stamp in one of the passports, is this a good enough reason for u???

I have actually decided to draft a short letter amd ask for reasons for the decision and being an EEA decision there must be an automatic right of appeal to the AIT. The only way they can revoke an rc is om grounds of public policy security and health(reg 20(1)) in this case. And this must be done in accordance with Reg 21 guidelines. Almost inevitable consequence of such revocation is expulsion under 19(3). So, if the ukba is not intending to revoke the right to reside, we need the reason for revocation to appeal the decision.

If they say that they r not revoking the actual resid but only the card, i will again request an official decision in official form to appeal against it.

keffers wrote:

If people stopped being "petty" about their rights reminding the system that it is not at liberty to do as it pleases but rather to operate within confines of the law

And therein lies the problem. Whose interpretation? Why waste time proving a point against the 'system'? People should just move on. Unless a genuine reason can be given as t why someone needs two valid passports (presumably in the same name) with two valid Rcs, then what is the point of arguing the toss.

What happens when one of the passports becomes out of date? Another challenge to the 'system' and a new campaign to have another RC issued in a new second passport?

Certainly an interesting situation. I hope you will report back.

Yes, that seems to be a reasonable need - and I suppose it will work the other way too with a Libyan stamp in a passport.

Going back to my assertion about being up front and avoiding the cloak and dagger approach which always arouses suspicion, have you explained this to UKBA as I am sure they must be familiar with the passport stamp silliness concerning Arab and Israelis which has been going on for many years.

Sometimes a simple request backed up by sound reasoning is far better than using the law as a battering ram.

eg why not ask the Israeli Consulate for a letter of support - after all it is my understanding that Israeli immigration are quite accommodating in respect of whether or not to stamp a passport.

keffers wrote:Unless a genuine reason can be given as t why someone needs two valid passports (presumably in the same name) with two valid Rcs, then what is the point of arguing the toss.

As long as there are no such requirement in the LAW no one owes the "system" to justify anything. The "system" is there to serve and not to harass people by requiring them to justify whatever it deems needs justifying.

What happens when one of the passports becomes out of date? Another challenge to the 'system' and a new campaign to have another RC issued in a new second passport?

There would not be any "campaigns" if the "system" was just doing its job instead of treating everyone as a potential criminal trying to abuse the poor "system". (ever heard of the "presumption of innocence"?)

Mcovet you have a PM. Or PM me back. Thanks

daddy wrote:to make this short, it is illegal to have 2 passports of same nationality valid

Beg to differ... My husband, Dutch nationality, has two VALID Dutch passports for business reasons. First is 5 years valid and second is renewed after two years. Nothing 'ulterior' or 'illegal' about it! By the way, there are MORE european countries with similar regulations. So please get your facts right before you make sweeping statements.

An update. In contrast to previous applications where the RCs were issued first and then the letter accompanying them asked for older valid passports to be returned, this time they first requested older valid passport to cancel the RC in order to transfer RC into dual nationals second passport.

Caseworker called today asking for older passport, I asked to put the request in writing and said that the request would be refused and appealed to AIT.

The question: How long would the process of appeal to AIT take from the beginning to the end on the EEA route please???