Permanent Residence time before marriage together

I am just curious regarding the permanent residence permit according to the EU law.

Is the time before marriage with your EU partner counts towards the 5 year time frame of permanent residence. Suppose you live together with your partner for 6 years and been married 4 years can you apply for permanent residence on the base of 6 years living together?

Another question is if my EU partner applies for permanent residence then does that mean that they don't have to exercise treaty rights ?

Please do help if you can.. Thank you.

Is the time before marriage with your EU partner counts towards the 5 year time frame of permanent residence. Suppose you live together with your partner for 6 years and been married 4 years can you apply for permanent residence on the base of 6 years living together?

Yes, you could apply as being in a durable relationship if you have proof of co-habitation / relationship even though not legally married yet.

if my EU partner applies for permanent residence then does that mean that they don't have to exercise treaty rights ?

Yes, that's what it means. If someone has acquired PR then they are no longer subject to the requirement to exercise Treaty Rights. They are automatically a qualified person when they have PR.

Thank you for a prompt reply.. So as I see it we have been together since 2006 living together with all proofs of addresses and work. then married in 2008..

So what shall we send with our application ? marriage certificate or without it should be ok? all the 5 Kgs of proofs..

[/quote]
Yes, you could apply as being in a durable relationship if you have proof of co-habitation / relationship even though not legally married yet[/quote]

Do we have to send the passports again I mean for my EU spouse? As I got a RC and they've seen it before? Or shall we send the passports and then request it back in a couple of weeks as we maybe travelling ?

Unfortunately, the time before marriage does NOT count, so you'll have to wait another year. This is the exact answer I received last year from UKBA. They regard time prior to marriage as not counting because if you had applied to UKBA during that time, you would only be regarded a family member from the time they confirm it by issuing a RC, as opposed to getting married and automatically being a family member.

Therefore, even though it is arguable that the relationship led to the marriage and should therefore be taken into account, the position of the UKBA would be- they look at your marriage certificate, count 5 years and that's it. If you are prepared to argue your point, by the time you resolve your dispute- 5th year would have passed

Good luck, and my suggestion- don't risk posting your passports for this, get an answer first if you are in doubt!

cutepearl wrote:I am just curious regarding the permanent residence permit according to the EU law.

Is the time before marriage with your EU partner counts towards the 5 year time frame of permanent residence. Suppose you live together with your partner for 6 years and been married 4 years can you apply for permanent residence on the base of 6 years living together?

Another question is if my EU partner applies for permanent residence then does that mean that they don't have to exercise treaty rights ?

Please do help if you can.. Thank you.

mcovet wrote:Unfortunately, the time before marriage does NOT count, so you'll have to wait another year. This is the exact answer I received last year from UKBA. They regard time prior to marriage as not counting because if you had applied to UKBA during that time, you would only be regarded a family member from the time they confirm it by issuing a RC, as opposed to getting married and automatically being a family member

A few days ago I was reading a thread on this board which said that the OP had only been married for (maybe) 3 years, and now had a PR card. Similar situation.

In what form was the exact answer you got from UKBA? If it is in written form, can you share with us the verbatim extracts?

But also look into what this poster claims. (Original thread and the response to mcovet).

Cutepearl , when you were co-habiting prior to marriage were you being sponsored by your partner then, in other words,had you applied for a residence card as an unmarried partner of an EEA national or what?

Or when did you apply for the residence card, before or after your marriage?

It was on the basis of the posts that Directive and 86ti refer to that I based my answer.

However, taking on board what mccovet says too, is it the case that the correct answer ( to the original question) is still YES, but with a proviso?

Time spent in co-habitation can be counted, but the time prior to marriage can only be counted if a residence card had been issued as an unmarried partner of an EEA national?

Then the start date of the PR clock would count from the date of application of the residence card as unmarried partner of EEA?

spot on!!! and re: directive I will provide the wording in a min.

nonspecifics wrote:Cutepearl , when you were co-habiting prior to marriage were you being sponsored by your partner then, in other words,had you applied for a residence card as an unmarried partner of an EEA national or what?

Or when did you apply for the residence card, before or after your marriage?

It was on the basis of the posts that Directive and 86ti refer to that I based my answer.

However, taking on board what mccovet says too, is it the case that the correct answer ( to the original question) is still YES, but with a proviso?

Time spent in co-habitation can be counted, but the time prior to marriage can only be counted if a residence card had been issued as an unmarried partner of an EEA national?

Then the start date of the PR clock would count from the date of application of the residence card as unmarried partner of EEA?

"Dear ***********

Thank you for your enquiry below.

I see the logic of your argument but have to disagree with your conclusion.

As you say, reg. 15(1)(b) of the 2006 Regulations recognises a right of permanent residence in the case of "a family member of an EEA national who is not himself an EEA national but who has resided in the United Kingdom with the EEA national in accordance with these Regulations for a continuous period of five years".

The term "family member" is defined by reg. 7. Specifically, reg. 7(3) states that "a person who is an extended family member [defined in reg. 8 as including "the partner of an EEA national (other than a civil partner)"] and has been issued with an EEA family permit, a registration certificate or a residence card shall be treated as the family member of the relevant EEA national...".

In other words, so far as a person relying on his/her "durable relationship" (as distinct from marriage or civil partnership) with an EEA national is concerned, the clock only starts ticking towards the 5 year point specified in reg. 15(1)(b) once a residence card (etc) has been issued (from the time of application!MCOVET emphasis based on case law Obie refers to). The mere existence of a relationship does not, under the 2006 Regulations, confer any residence rights on the non-EEA party. This reflects the distinction made by the European directive on the free movement of persons, Dir 2004/38/EC, between, on the one hand, direct family members (spouses/civil partners, children, parents etc) and, on the other hand, "other family members" and "the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship": direct family members have an automatic right of residence irrespective of whether they have been granted a residence card etc, but other relatives and partners have this right only after the host State has undertaken "an extensive examination" of their personal circumstances and determined that it would be appropriate to allow their admission and residence.

Signed
Deputy Chief Caseworker (European Casework)"

Sounds logical to me. Can 86ti post link to the post where someone got PR having been married for 3 years? Unless they had a RC issued as extended Fam Member, I don't see how this was possible!

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:

mcovet wrote:Unfortunately, the time before marriage does NOT count, so you'll have to wait another year. This is the exact answer I received last year from UKBA. They regard time prior to marriage as not counting because if you had applied to UKBA during that time, you would only be regarded a family member from the time they confirm it by issuing a RC, as opposed to getting married and automatically being a family member

A few days ago I was reading a thread on this board which said that the OP had only been married for (maybe) 3 years, and now had a PR card. Similar situation.

In what form was the exact answer you got from UKBA? If it is in written form, can you share with us the verbatim extracts?

mcovet wrote:Can 86ti post link to the post where someone got PR having been married for 3 years?

See my post above.

86ti wrote:

mcovet wrote:Can 86ti post link to the post where someone got PR having been married for 3 years?

See my post above.

sorry, my bad, just seen it!

well, it's doable then, what can I say! good luck

EDIT: the only thing I can see is if UKBA turned up and argued that prior to marriage and without examining the facts, durable relationship hadn't been established and thus the person in question hadn't lived under EU law, but rather in accordance with previous leave (i.e. work permit, whatever) for the period until marriage. I see it being debatable even though the best argument of non-EEA national would be that the relationship MUST have been durable if led to the marriage, but does durable imply time or strength? If former-then 2 years is regarded as norm and a couple can get married without being in a durable relationship before marriage... anyway, just thoughts!

nonspecifics wrote:Cutepearl , when you were co-habiting prior to marriage were you being sponsored by your partner then, in other words,had you applied for a residence card as an unmarried partner of an EEA national or what?
Or when did you apply for the residence card, before or after your marriage?
It was on the basis of the posts that Directive and 86ti refer to that I based my answer.
However, taking on board what mccovet says too, is it the case that the correct answer ( to the original question) is still YES, but with a proviso?
Time spent in co-habitation can be counted, but the time prior to marriage can only be counted if a residence card had been issued as an unmarried partner of an EEA national?
Then the start date of the PR clock would count from the date of application of the residence card as unmarried partner of EEA?

No I was a student before so I was not dependant on my spouse. And we lived together since december 2006 and got married in 2008. But from the post that is mentioned here who successfully appealed that person was not dependant on their EU partner either?? That person was on a work visa so which I think was a limited leave to remain same as a student... I think I will write to the HO but don;t know which address shall I send the application to.. Any Idea?

One thing more.. Suppose I apply for PR and if it gets rejected Does that mean I have to leave the country or can I still continue my residence on the Residence Card that is still valid until 2013?? Thank you

Also Regarding the Passports.. Do I have to send my EEA spouse's passport or as I have RC I don't need to send it with the application as my spouse do travel a lot at present due to family illness...

There does not have to be a dependency relationship between between spouses, civil partnership couples, or common law couples.

Dependency is only an issue for children older than 21, parents, dependent former household members, ... http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ly-member/ and http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ficiaries/

So then directive. According to the successful application/appeal of the case that is mentioned above I can send an application for PR? But if it gets rejected it will not affect my stay as I'm still gonna have my RC?

Applying for PR and having it rejected is not a strike against you, at least not in any way that I am aware of. I do not personally see any downside.

Your right to be in the UK comes from your relationship with the EU citizen. The RC and PRC are just confirmations of the right you already have.

Does anyone know the contact email or postal address for European Case workers ?? Thanks

cutepearl wrote:Does anyone know the contact email or postal address for European Case workers ?? Thanks

Just write a complaint describing your question and the fact u couldnt get an answer to it. As regards rejection of ur eea4 app, it will only mean u r not eligible at that time and once u complete 5 yrs according to ukba, u can apply again. Nothing to worry about. I c u married in 2008, since it's 2 more years' wait for pr i would apply now and appeal if necessary, u r not losin anyth

cutepearl wrote:Does anyone know the contact email or postal address for European Case workers ?? Thanks

It is unclear who you want to contact for what reason. But generally there is only the public email and postal address

also, do NOT forget that it is THEIR interpretation of the law and they are likely to tell you that you're ineligible, so not much point in contacting them. You have 2 real life cases, one quoted by me (their position) and another a refusal to issue PR card which went to an appeal hearing but was successful simply because UKBA didn't attend.

Thus, the UKBA position is clear, so just apply and expect to appeal as well.

cutepearl wrote:Does anyone know the contact email or postal address for European Case workers ?? Thanks

mcovet wrote:also, do NOT forget that it is THEIR interpretation of the law[...]

Not to mention that some people have gotten contradictory answers in even very simple cases.

mcovet wrote:also, do NOT forget that it is THEIR interpretation of the law and they are likely to tell you that you're ineligible, so not much point in contacting them. You have 2 real life cases, one quoted by me (their position) and another a refusal to issue PR card which went to an appeal hearing but was successful simply because UKBA didn't attend.

Thus, the UKBA position is clear, so just apply and expect to appeal as well.

So what you are saying is that people who have applied before are right ? As they UKBA has their own interpretation but if they refuse the application and then it goes to appeal the judge would allow the appeal ?

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: It is unclear who you want to contact for what reason. But generally there is only the public email and postal address

I just wanted to ask a couple of questions from them in writing regarding EEA3 and EEA4. Also regarding the time of marriage if it is counted Just in case if I get a yes from them in writing as some people were told yes on the phone.so I can use it later on.