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Civil Judgment & effects on ILR

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Civil Judgment & effects on ILR

Post by snarkaholic » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:55 pm

Hello everyone,

Back in March I found out about a civil judgment that was made without my knowledge 7 years ago. To make a very long story short, my employer terminated me, I collected unemployment, then when I left the state she turned around and lied, claiming that I quit.

Then the unemployment bureau launched an investigation and accused me of making "a wilful false statement." They attached a penalty on top of the lump sum and then entered a summary judgement in court 5 months later, while I was living 3,000 miles away.

I never knew about it until I found it by doing a background check on myself.

To make a long story short I've been fighting this for six months and there's no chance it's going away--I can't fight it, the employer is very vindictive and pulled some crazy shenanigans at the hearing. Blah blah blah.


So the big question: I'm going to pay all of this back in a lump sum and get this judgment satisfied. What scares the living hell out of me and my fiancée is what happens come ILR time and we have to declare this after living together for 27 months on the spouse visa? They accused me of fraud which is not true, but never charged me, nor is it a conviction, just a civil monetary judgement. It's not even marked as fraud on the form, but it says "penalty assessed." I discovered it, I came forward, and did everything I honestly could to rectify the situation.

Are we dead in the water on this? Any advice would be greatly appreciated, it's been six months of living hell and the thought of this cloud hanging over our heads for another 3 years until it's time to apply for ILR is too much to bear.


Thank you so much for any advice or tips. I've lost 3 stone over this matter over the past six months.... :(

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Post by mrlookforward » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:05 pm

You yourselves said that its not a conviction and you have not been charged. They have just accused you. Now I am accusing you that you stole my 10 million pounds. Should it have an effect on your ILR?

When you have not been convicted of anything, you do not have to worry about anything.

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Post by snarkaholic » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:52 pm

[quote="mrlookforward"]
When you have not been convicted of anything, you do not have to worry about anything.[/quote]

Thank you. :) I just don't know how the UKBA would look at a Judgment that has to do with "deception." This happened so long ago I have no evidence to defend myself, so I have no choice but to pay up and get it satisfied.

What I was afraid of is by paying it off (which I must and will obviously) that's the same as admitting guilt. Then there's the good character requirement for Naturalization...

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Post by mrlookforward » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:04 pm

right,

Now, can you please explain it a bit better. What do you mean by "summary judgement"?

What is "unemployment bureau"? Do you mean jobcentre/DWP?

Do you mean Jobcentre/DWP asked you to pay the money back plus a penalty, and when you did not pay that amount they got a county court judgement against you?

Please take some time and put everything down with all correct dates of the events, eg date you left emloyment, date of claim, date when Jobcentre accused you and then dates of all the lettes they sent you and dates of court summons and judgements and date of your travel out of and then back into UK.

There may be a possibiltiy to overturn the judgement if you were out of country when Jobcentre started any legal proceeding against you.
If the judgement is overturned, then you will be in a win win situation. Jobcentre will have to start the whole process again, and in this window you can approach jobcentre and arrange a repayment schedule.
This will give you a clean slate for naturalisation.

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Post by snarkaholic » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:06 pm

Hi Mrlookforward and thanks again for your response.

A summary judgment is a civil judgment for monetary claim entered into a court. The unemployment bureau is like the jobcentre, this is concerning unemployment insurance, same as Job Seeker's in the U.K., but in California.

I got the civil judgment because I stopped collecting benefits when I moved across the country. After I moved, my ex-employer went to the Unemployment people and claimed I QUIT, not LAID OFF as I actually was. It's a long story, but it's a case of employer retaliation. The judgment was entered because they as you said exactly right, demanded money back, but this was 5 months after I moved so I never knew about it. So it's been sitting in a court house all this time.

This happened about 8 years ago now.

My lawyer and I have been wrangling with the Unemployment agency for 6 months now, and to significant expense to me, we are at a dead end. There is ZERO chance of overturning the judgment, even if I won the case on appeal. According to California law, all they have to do is send a letter to the last address on record and they're off the hook in terms of "serving you proper notice." I verified this with multiple tax-settlement lawyers who spent their entire careers dealing with this agency.

To make this more FUBAR, the agency destroyed all of their records pertaining this case years ago.

However my ex-employer (we had first hearing this past Monday) called in and lied to the judge--they said they never received notice of the hearing and the case file with my version of events. SO the judge postponed it another month. The question is....how in the world could they not have receieved notice of the hearing/appeal, BUT MANAGED TO HIRE A LAWYER AND CALL INTO THE HEARING??? HUH???

To not get overly melodramatic, they did this on purpose to get my casefile, and now they're taking their sweet time to talk to me over everyway possible: The catch is in unemployment law, we don't have the right of discovery and won't get to see THEIR side of the evidence until 15 minutes before another hearing.

I have no more evidence than banks statements proving I was out of state, that I got severance pay, etc, but no witnesses. It was a very toxic and hostile situation so they'll go out of their way to do anything they can to me. Why on earth are they spending 5 figures on lawyers to contest a poxy unemployment claim? It makes no sense, but we've decided it's not worth going against them--they've proven they lied before to the agency, they lied before a live judge, and god knows what will happen later.

So I am going to pay all of the money back and get the judgment satisfied . [b]in one clean shot and be done with it.[/b]

Given all of this information, what do you think of the situation now? I'm afraid paying the money back is admission of guilt, but I cannot win against my former employer because it's been so long ago and I'm going bankrupt with legal fees.

Thanks very much for your thoughts on this crazy issue. I feel like I've been watching myself from the outside for most of this year, this thing is so damn bizzare.

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Post by mrlookforward » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:20 pm

Oh god,
You were on about legal proceedings in USA.
Well, forget about them, do not mention them ever here in UK. Just wipe them off your memory. Those things have nothing to do with UK. Do not mention them on any forms whatsoever. They just do not count.

Just mention stuff in the forms which might have occured here in UK. eg if a judgement passed by UK courts.

Once again, just forget about judgements that happened in courts outside UK.

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Post by snarkaholic » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:36 pm

But on SET(M) for gaining ILR, it specifically says "Do you or any dependants who are applying with you have any criminal convictions in the UK or any other country (including traffic offences) or any civil judgments made against you?"

You absolutely must declare any civil judgments as well as crimes from ANY COUNTRY! If you don't and they find out you have one, that's deception and banned for 10 years.

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Post by mrlookforward » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:55 pm

In UK County Court Judgments (CCJs) stay on your record for six years from the date of the judgment.
After six years CCJs are automatically deleted, whether the judgment has been paid (satisfied) or not.

Your judgement in US was handed down more than 6 years ago, so no need to mention them. Even criminal convictions do not need to be disclosed once they are spent.

Having said that, UKBA has no way of finding out what is your record in USA, unless you are a internationally wanted criminal, like a robber, murderer or terrorist.

If after everything, you have already convinced yourself that you must decalare it, then I do not see a point in asking anyone else's opinion. You should do what you think is right.

Good luck. :)

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Post by snarkaholic » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:06 pm

Thank you Mrlookforward for your input. May I ask where the source of your knowledge/experiences is? Because I have spoken with a Level 3 OISC immigration advisor who said for example, on the INITIAL application (spousal/fiance/etc.) you must declare all criminal convictions...spent or not. It's very specific in the asking of the questions--the 1974 Rehab act does not apply until you're applying for ILR.

Also, the UKBA absolutely does have full access to perform background and criminal checks in the USA and does it on every applicant. You give them the authority to do so when you sign the application. I have seen dozens of refusals across forums stating that along the lines of "upon conducting a search we found you did not disclose your conviction for xxxxx" in year xxxx." I've seen that from applicants in other countries as well.

Lastly, the question is whether you EVER had a civil judgment, not if they are deleted--that information never ever goes away in the law, I know that for sure. They may be off your credit reports, or sealed, but the government will always know.

If I was able to find this judgment just by typing my name on the internet...then there's a good chance they could too! Especially with databases and records increasingly merging, who knows how easy it will be to find stuff 3 years from now.


I'm just being extra careful about this thing because my future family is all I have...and I want to be squeaky clean and honest about this.

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Post by mrlookforward » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:21 pm

I know a bit more, but I am sorry, due to legal reasons I cannot put down everything online.

As far as convictions are concerned, your level 3 oisc advisor or even if he is a barrister, is totally wrong to suggest that for some immigration forms, somehow rehabilitation of offenders act does not apply.

No one needs to disclose any spent convictions, apart from some sensitive professions which are exempt such as working with children, vulnerable people or working within sensitive government departments like police, immigration or security forces etc. In these cases even spent conviction must be disclosed.

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Post by snarkaholic » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:31 pm

I understand completely about not being able to put things online. In fact, saying things online 8 years ago got me into this mess in the first place!!

Just to be clear, I do not have an advisor yet-this one that is I have spoken privately with. In terms of the spent conviction thing, the rationale I was told that if you look at forms such as On the MVV/Fiancé(e)/Spouse:

"6.9 Do you have any criminal convictions in any country (including traffic offences)? Put a cross (x) in the relevant box."

But if you look at the form like SET(M) for ILR, the question is worded:

"8.1 Do you or any dependents who are applying with you have any criminal convictions in the UK or any other country (including traffic offences) or any civil judgments made against you? Note 4 Convictions spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 need not be disclosed. More information about the Act is given towards the end of this section."

I've worked a good amount of time in the government and know how things are worded are VERY important. Do you have an idea why they would NOT mention the act for the first case, but go out of the way to make it very clear not to disclose the convictions on SET(M)? To me it seems very odd that they would have this distinct difference in the wording of the forms.

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Post by mrlookforward » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:36 pm

Yes, I totally agree with you. To be honest, I never looked at the differences in the wording between the two forms.
But I would say, that according to rehabilitation of offenders act (ROA), you do not need to disclose the spent conviction. So even when UKBA has expressly not mentioned ROA, you still do not need to disclose.

Here I would like to mention one more thing, and hope this will put your mind to rest, when you want to disclose your judgement from USA. For grant of ILR, there is a criminality criteria ie you should not have unspent criminal convictions. But civil judgements like county court judgements are not criminal convictions and there is no rehabilitation period for them. CCJ are not in the criminality criteria, so if you want to mention as you say the records are online (i aint very clued up about USA laws abt this) , then still you should not have any problems whatsoever getting ILR and then when the time comes, British Citizenship.

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Post by Bobbylondon » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:36 am

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Post by Casa » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:39 pm

snarkaholic, before you take his 'advice', you'll see that Mr LookForward is what is termed as 'on thin ice' here on the forum. Which probably requires no explanation.
Any legal professional would tell you not to withhold information that you're requested to declare on the application. The level 3 Immigration Advisor was correct. 8)

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Post by mrlookforward » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:23 pm

I suggest you read rehabilitation of offenders act 1974 mr casa the moderator. And that "thin ice" means nothing and your moderator status is nothing. There are just online things, having no real value in real life. Anything I have said won't just be incorrect because I have this "thin ice" status. My post will be incorrect if it contains something which is not correct.

Let me know why do you think rehabilitation of offenders act is somehow not applicable in the situation mentioned in OP's intial post? What is the exemption that UKBA have from this act? In which UKBA document they have mentioned that they have exemption?

Your "moderator" status also means nothing whatsoever, it doesn't mean that what you say is always right. I could build an online discussion board for free and make myself a "moderator".

I am not always right, no one can be. But I have on many occasions given correct and straightforward advice, after your learned "moderators" were not only incorrect, their posts were misleading.

Now let see what you have said above

Any legal professional would tell you not to withhold information that you're requested to declare on the application.

You got it wrong mr moderator. If a conviction has been spent under rehabilitation of offenders act, you do not need to disclose it, even if asked for. The exception is, some professions which are exempt.

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Post by Casa » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:44 am

I'm not a Mr by the way. Wrong assumptions have been a major contribution to your 'thin ice' status...together with an arrogant disregard for advice given to the members by legal professionals.
My 'Moderator' role (together with the board Administrator and the other Moderators) is simply to ensure that members don't post with disrespect...make dearly beloved or inflammatory comments, or give dangerously misleading information which may have a catastrophic affect on a fellow member's future. Moderators are also here to keep an eye on spam adverts, trolls and those who have been previously suspended from other immigration forums..albeit often under a different name.

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Post by mrlookforward » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:06 pm

Now you cannot argue on the points of debate, and just come up with unrelated blubber. The point is, what I mentioned that spent convictions do not need to be disclosed, is correct.

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Post by Casa » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:30 am

Well that a lovely start to the day. :? If you don't have anything valid to add to the thread to post, please let another forum have the benefit of your 'advice'. I that is, you're able to find a reputable one where you haven't already been suspended.
You appear to be having a problem understanding the pasted instructions from the UKBA website. Although a police caution can be disregarded by the ECO, it does not state it doesn't have to disclosed.
I believe the OP is now well aware of this, following OISC professional advise.

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Post by snarkaholic » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:22 pm

Casa wrote:snarkaholic, before you take his 'advice', you'll see that Mr LookForward is what is termed as 'on thin ice' here on the forum. Which probably requires no explanation.
Any legal professional would tell you not to withhold information that you're requested to declare on the application. The level 3 Immigration Advisor was correct. 8)
Thank you Casa--I am new to this forum and not aware of the terminology and didn't understand what the "On Thin Ice" actually meant a warning status.

I must admit I was extremely wary when he advised me to lie on the immigration forms (don't disclose any convictions/judgments) and said that the UKBA has no way of checking US citizen backgrounds or crimes.

But I do see his point about that it's not criminal, it's civil, and has no effect on criminality. The adviser I speak of said of things along the same thing.


My biggest concerns is the the nature of the accusation (but as mrlookforward said, it's only that an accusation), but they did assess a penalty automatically. The penalty has me worried...and I have no way to defend myself anymore, I'm at the end of the road. I'm worried that paying off the judment is admitting guilt to something I didn't do. But I can't afford another $15-$20k in lawyer's costs and possibly a YEAR going through appeals.

I need to settle this judgment (MASSIVE MONEY :( ) and prepare a good written statement for when it comes to ILR.

I'm playing this by the book...the worst thing you can EVER do is lie to immigration. And I have two (very minor convictions totaling fines of $175) from 7 years ago, I'm still putting them on my VAF4. When I apply to ILR, and it says in writing I don't need to because of the REHAB 1974 act, I won't. But it specifically says, DO YOU HAVE ANY CIVIL JUDGMENTS? Date doesn't matter, and I know for a fact CCJs don't "expire," they fall off your credit report. Nothing in a court system "expires." Whether you like it or not, they have it on the books for your life time.

And form SET(M) asks "If you ever had a civil judgment." That is legalese AT ANYTIME IN YOUR LIFE HAD YOU HAVE ONE???

Not taking any chances.


Now to change gears, Casa, you seem very knowledgeable....would you know anything about this matter and effects on my ILR? I'll admit, I'm looking for all any information/advice about this to clear a dark cloud as much as possible from hanging over our heads for 3 years....

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Post by snarkaholic » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:32 pm

Bobbylondon wrote:
mrlookforward wrote: Here I would like to mention one more thing, and hope this will put your mind to rest, when you want to disclose your judgement from USA. For grant of ILR, there is a criminality criteria ie you should not have unspent criminal convictions. But civil judgements like county court judgements are not criminal convictions and there is no rehabilitation period for them. CCJ are not in the criminality criteria, so if you want to mention as you say the records are online (i aint very clued up about USA laws abt this) , then still you should not have any problems whatsoever getting ILR and then when the time comes, British Citizenship.


Thank you, that does help put my mind at ease some more! I just know the consequences of deception are SO SEVERE I cannot and will not lie on the application.

OK now back to trying to figure how to pay for this thing ASAP.....

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Post by mrlookforward » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:13 pm

Casa wrote:Well that a lovely start to the day. :? If you don't have anything valid to add to the thread to post, please let another forum have the benefit of your 'advice'. I that is, you're able to find a reputable one where you haven't already been suspended.
You appear to be having a problem understanding the pasted instructions from the UKBA website. Although a police caution can be disregarded by the ECO, it does not state it doesn't have to disclosed.
I believe the OP is now well aware of this, following OISC professional advise.
Well, I have told the valid thing. Its you who cannot grasp it. Oh yea, I am very very scared to get suspended from this forum, it will destroy my career :wink:

Once again, find time to read rehabilitation of offenders act 1974, and orders made under it. This is the act and not any immigration act which decides whats to be disclosed. Its lists who can have the expemtions if any. If there are no exemptions, and the conviction is spent, it doesn't need to be declared, simple. The whole act doesn't need to be mentioned in every form, including UKBA forms.

As far as the OISC advisors or are concerned, OISC registered means that an advisor passed a test to show a certain ability and he is on a register, any cusotmers can be sure that this advisor wont just disappear into thin air one day. OISC registeration does not guarantee that every bit of their advice will guarantee success. Do you know how many asylum claims fail? Who advises asylum seekers? I guess OISC advisors.

Do you know how many judicial reviews fail to make past even oral stage? Why do so many fail? Judicial reviews are prepared/filed by barristers, not your par-boiled OISC advisors. Wonder why still a tiny number succeed? These applicants have already been past OISC advisors, solicitors and then come to barristers. Why don't they all succeed? Guess what, any advice or information, originating from anywhere, should be correct and have basis in law. UKBA quidance should have basis in law too, and when its not based on law, its overturned by courts, which happens on a daily basis.

Pasting information from UKBA website is useful BUT that solely is not enough. Now, I do not need to start quoting so many of high profile cases where UKBA faced embarrasment, and regularly does. How about COA for marriage, ruled contrary to law and government had to withdraw it. Heard of latest ECJ judgement about zambrano? Heard of Surinder sing case? Heard of Chikwamba? Heard about UKBA guidance ruled unlawful which in the past dealt with HSMP/Tier1 and related categories maintenance requirement? UKBA had to issue entry clearances to 100s of people and who had left the country or even removed forcibly due to unlawful guidance, and yes that guidance was posted on UKBA website and many par-boiled experts use to copy and paste that information regularly and par-boiled legal experts (many OISC advisors) use to advise according to that guidance. And then someone who had the real knowledge of law challenged that UKBA guidance, and courts ruled that that particular guidance had no basis in law, and does not and never had any legal effect on the applicants.

Law is supreme.
:P

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Post by mulderpf » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:36 am

Okay, firstly, this is not a criminal conviction, so don't really see what the Rehabilitation of Offenders act has to do with it.

Deception will get you in a lot more trouble when it comes to immigration matters than disclosing the right, albeit incriminating information. Rather disclose too much than too little. ANYTHING that you think is relevant should be disclosed. It is very likely not to have a material impact on your application, but non-disclosure will have an impact if they become aware of it as you are then definitely guilty of deception.

I do not know of anyone who got their ILR with having a civil judgement so long ago, so can't bring relevant experience to the table, but I do know someone who was a serial overstayer and just got their ILR (also through the spouse route).

Either way, even if Mrlookforward is right (which is likely - although, due to his attitude on here, I don't really want to agree), disclosing something which is completely immaterial and unimportant to your case will not put you in a worse situation than if you failed to disclose something which they had specifically asked for (which the form does!!).

Personally, I would just try and get the judgement settled, put it to the back of my mind and apply for ILR and fully disclose all the relevant information or at least what I think it relevant (e.g. the civil judgement).

My response is based on personal experience and those of friends only. I am not involved in immigration at all and don't know anyone who applied (let alone received) ILR with a civil judgement (just in case you asked).

Good luck!

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Post by snarkaholic » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:02 pm

Thank you very much mulderpf. Your post makes a whole lot of sense.

I am settling this judgement and paying for it--it's so old and I have not a good recollection that I can't win on appeal. Not to get into melodrama but it had to do with a very hostile work environment and a vindictive employer. Hence they are now spending huge money on lawyers to fight this poxy little appeal--to the tune of 10x what it would cost them if I just got the decision reversed.

With this judgment satisfied and court papers in hand, I will explain come ILR time the scenario honestly and matter-of-factly with the help of an immigration advisor.

MrLookforward had some good points, but I am done listening to him as he clearly doesn't understand the UKBA, doesn't know they can and do conduct background checks in the US, that crimes and judgments MUST be declared no matter the country, and basically advised me to lie by deception on the application. That is bang out of order, and he who claims "knows more than most but can't disclose due to legal reasons" is...well...really full of it. Please don't answer anymore on this thread MrLookforward, I would greatly appreciate it.

In regards to "Over disclosure," yesterday I got a PM from an employee of the UKBA about this issue on a different immigration issue and they backed up the points I made on this thread, and confirm what you said--honesty and FULL DISCLOSURE go a very long F@$King way in terms of immigration.

I feel much more at ease now, thank you helpful people.

But as I'm a neurotic by nature, any more input/questions to this crazy bizzare situation of mine are welcome!!!

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