URGENT...Please help/Eu Permanent residence refused

walrusgumble wrote:

IQU wrote:eu pr application is made after 4 and half year. because processing time is 6 months.i dont think they are breaches any law.they have all the document from last 5 years living together and also on socail welfare etc etc.they have kids together.inis should give them pr card easily.

you can only make application after meeting five rule.looking at the partly disclosed facts,it might not be the case that its obvious,so we should not assume.read what the directive actually says and refrain from making up your own rules.nobody is asking you want you think,your being asked for what you know.kindly provide evidence to support your opinion,thank you

Hello Walrus, I'm really struggling replying to your numerous posts.

First of all IQU is correct, the application for permanent residence can be made 6 months before expiration, like he said this is because it takes 6 months to process. If I made a premature application I am sure I would have been told and my application would not have been processed, and because I said I got the residence card in August 2006 does not mean I entered the state in August 2006. With your wide knowledge on this, you would know that calculation for residence in the state starts from when you arrive the state.

I am not trying to be the judge in my own case, if I was I wont come to this forum to ask for advise. I am making statements based on my own understanding. My spouse and myself worked between 2006-2008 before we lost our jobs, she registered with the state unemployment body FAS and we went for state sponsored courses to improve our chances of getting employed. I am not aware that my own employment cannot be taken in lieu of her exercising her treaty rights, I am fully aware that in the UK, that is the case. INIS is saying the letter from FAS didnt indicate when she registered, that is just petty when they could have asked us to provide that during the decision making process.

In terms of the law, it is even more complex and not as straight forward as you are portraying it to be. Before I made the application, I contacted the EU Commission and I explained our situation and they expressly said member states are incorrectly transposing the Article 16 of the treaty rights which provides the right of the EU national and thier family members the right to permanent residence, interestingly, they said to me that this right is not subject to Chapter 2 (Articles 6-15) of the treaty, as such unless the applicant is in breach of public policy, security or health, they are automatically entitled to this right.

hi eu spouse, 1. provide evidence to support your contention that you can apply six months in advance. 2. you made apllication in april 11, where you with your eu spouse in ireland in april 06?(if yes,fair point,but if not, i am correct. i understand that you entered in june 06,by my maths thats not 5 years) 3.your activity is irrelevant for pr.you get your pr on the basis of eu spouse.if she is not exercising eu rights (she is) you have problems (you should be ok now) under eu law (you wont be removed even under irish law) relax

walrusgumble wrote:eu spouse, 1. provide evidence to support your contention that you can apply six months in advance. 2. you made apllication in april 11, where you with your eu spouse in ireland in april 06?(if yes,fair point,but if not, i am correct 3.your activity is irrelevant for pr.you get your pr on the basis of eu spouse.if she is not exercising eu rights (she is) you have problems (you should be ok now) under eu law (you wont be removed even under irish law) relax

The evidence you are telling me to provide is widely available on the internet but I will oblige you:

Article 20
Permanent residence card for family members
who are not nationals of a Member State
1. Member States shall issue family members who are not nationals of a Member State entitled to
permanent residence with a permanent residence card within six months of the submission of the
application. The permanent residence card shall be renewable automatically every ten years.
2. The application for a permanent residence card shall be submitted before the residence card
expires. Failure to comply with the requirement to apply for a permanent residence card may
render the person concerned liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory sanctions.

It is common knowledge that this is the case, even a quick search on this forum would confirm that. From my readings, I think my employment can be taken in lieu of her exercising her treaty rights. Many thanks however.

eu, are you an eu citizen?if not your details are not relevant.you are in a host state with british spouse.in britain you were judged under british law,not eu law.read article 45 tfeu & directive 2004 38.you said earlier that your wife worked in 2006 for 6 months,ended in 2007(2008 not relevant) when exactly did SHE register with fas?when exactly did SHE start college?(your finance will be used to prove she is self sufficient.source of same is irrelevant provided its legal ie your right to work which was never revoked )

walrusgumble wrote:eu, are you an eu citizen?if not your details are not relevant.you are in a host state with british spouse.in britain you were judged under british law,not eu law.read article 45 tfeu & directive 2004 38.you said earlier that your wife worked in 2006 for 6 months,ended in 2007(2008 not relevant) when exactly did SHE register with fas?when exactly did SHE start college?(your finance will be used to prove she is self sufficient.source of same is irrelevant provided its legal ie your right to work which was never revoked )

So do you agree that an application can be made before expiration of the residence card? of course I am not an EU citizen, if I was I wont be asking for help.

Many thanks Walrus, I appreciate your help.

6-15 of the treaty? you mean article 6-15 of DIRECTIVE 2004 38 EC! once you obtain that right your not subject to 6-15 thereafter.if people have not complied with article 7 before 5 years,they can in principle be removed. 16.2 of directive refers to non eu spouse "legally" residing.art 20 don't say that you can do it half a year before expiry.

EUspouse82 wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:eu, are you an eu citizen?if not your details are not relevant.you are in a host state with british spouse.in britain you were judged under british law,not eu law.read article 45 tfeu & directive 2004 38.you said earlier that your wife worked in 2006 for 6 months,ended in 2007(2008 not relevant) when exactly did SHE register with fas?when exactly did SHE start college?(your finance will be used to prove she is self sufficient.source of same is irrelevant provided its legal ie your right to work which was never revoked )

So do you agree that an application can be made before expiration of the residence card? of course I am not an EU citizen, if I was I wont be asking for help.

Many thanks Walrus, I appreciate your help.

are you genuinely a phd holder? start acting like one.answer the questions that i have put to you in order to assess whether the dept is correct to say that for 2006-2009 yor wife's residence was limited.that is what is at issue

you have provide no evidence to state that your details can be used in lieu.if your wife does not exercise rights,you have no rights,under eu law! and,your learning the hard way.for legal status you are dependant on eu spouse and not the other way round. if that happens,how can you say then, that either you you meet the 5 year requirement in the first place?once your wife meets it pr is automatic.if there is adelay in issuing it,its back dated as applying is amere confirmation of that right.

walrusgumble wrote:

EUspouse82 wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:eu, are you an eu citizen?if not your details are not relevant.you are in a host state with british spouse.in britain you were judged under british law,not eu law.read article 45 tfeu & directive 2004 38.you said earlier that your wife worked in 2006 for 6 months,ended in 2007(2008 not relevant) when exactly did SHE register with fas?when exactly did SHE start college?(your finance will be used to prove she is self sufficient.source of same is irrelevant provided its legal ie your right to work which was never revoked )

So do you agree that an application can be made before expiration of the residence card? of course I am not an EU citizen, if I was I wont be asking for help.

Many thanks Walrus, I appreciate your help.

are you genuinely a phd holder? you don't come across as one. answer the questions that i have put to you in order to assess whether the dept is correct to say that for 2006-2009 yor wife's residence was limited.

I am currently studying for one Walrus, no need to resort to personal abuse. I am sorry I would not answer your questions because I don't think you are genuinely interested in helping.

Firstly, you are still erroneously arguing that an application for permanent residence cannot be made 6 months before the expiration of the five year residence permit. You are asking sarcastic questions and you come across as quite condescending.

I will be patient and will wait for advise from people who are well versed in matters like this. Thanks once again for your contributions.

EUspouse82 wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:

EUspouse82 wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:eu, are you an eu citizen?if not your details are not relevant.you are in a host state with british spouse.in britain you were judged under british law,not eu law.read article 45 tfeu & directive 2004 38.you said earlier that your wife worked in 2006 for 6 months,ended in 2007(2008 not relevant) when exactly did SHE register with fas?when exactly did SHE start college?(your finance will be used to prove she is self sufficient.source of same is irrelevant provided its legal ie your right to work which was never revoked )

So do you agree that an application can be made before expiration of the residence card? of course I am not an EU citizen, if I was I wont be asking for help.

Many thanks Walrus, I appreciate your help.

are you genuinely a phd holder? you don't come across as one. answer the questions that i have put to you in order to assess whether the dept is correct to say that for 2006-2009 yor wife's residence was limited.

I am currently studying for one Walrus, no need to resort to personal abuse. I am sorry I would not answer your questions because I don't think you are genuinely interested in helping.

Firstly, you are still erroneously arguing that an application for permanent residence cannot be made 6 months before the expiration of the five year residence permit. You are asking sarcastic questions and you come across as quite condescending.

I will be patient and will wait for advise from people who are well versed in matters like this. Thanks once again for your contributions.

There is nothing condescending intended coming from me. You base your opinion on grounds of what others thinks. correct me if i am wrong, but many people here, like you, applied the law in a manner that suited yourselves, and hence why ye are now having problems. you hardly expect to get your phd with the attitude similar to some of your responses do you? you say that you are doing a phd (best of luck) the i expect you to posses intelligence. some of your posts either lack this or refuse to deal with the problems at hand, because it does not suit you (i would imagine its the latter)

my earlier reference to not judging your own case is based on the fact that you alone made comments on your first post regarding the veracity of the decision. i have asked you to state in full the facts of your wife's case because there are holes in what you have provided. i am in no doubt that you did the same when you spoke to the commission. you refuse to provide information

you have made statements that are totally groundless. merely saying is common knowledge is not good enough, and its the sign of a spoofer. again, as a phd student you would know this. you spoke about what happened in the uk, thus, clearly showing a lack a knowledge about eu law.

you fail to have regard to the fact that your permission in ireland, your right to residence and work is solely down to what your wife is doing. from the general facts that you provided there does not seem to be a problem, but the minister clearly has an issue. he is clearly saying that your wife between 2006-2009 is limited. i am asking you to state her history, which you refuse to disclose. i have no doubt you did the same with the commission.

the problem in your wifes's case is this: you both come from the UK (your reference to what happened in uk shows a lack of understanding that eu law only arise when some form of free movement is exercised McCarthy 2011) she moved over with you in June 2006.first 3 months she does not have to do anything, its only when she stays for more than this, she has to comply, in any way, with article 7 of directive 2004/38 ec. then and only then, do you, non eu person, have a right to residency and right to be treated the same as an eu citizen or citizen in host eu state.

your rights in ireland are dependent on her. in order for her to get permanent residency, she needs to comply with 5 years of residence in ireland via article 7 of the directive. once she does this, pr is automatic and applying is merely a confirmation of that right and no more. when you, non eu person applies, you have to show evidence of what your wife has done in those five years. its irrelevant what you have done. you could be a bum for all the state care.

Attached is the Commission Guidelines 2008/2009 on the Directive.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF


http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,, ... 223,0.html


http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/ ... 152_en.htm

"Union citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence, provided that an expulsion decision has not been enforced against them. This right of permanent residence is no longer subject to any conditions. The same rule applies to family members who are not nationals of a Member State and who have lived with a Union citizen for five years. The right of permanent residence is lost only in the event of more than two successive years' absence from the host Member State."




You provided no evidence regarding the permission to make the pr application within 6 months before being entitled to pr. that 20 only says make the application before card expires, ie 2-3 months at most. your erroneously using the 6 month figure also in article 20, as justification. the latter only being a deadline date for decisions. pr is automatic upon getting the 5 years residence persuant to article 7. anything can happen in half a year. its far too large a time span and you have no reliable evidence provided to say that a member state is obliged to consider it earlier than at least 2-3 months before actual entitlement. But you don't have to because you made it in April (2 months before 5 year anniversary ie June or even 4 months ie august when you registered)

but that still gets you no where, the department are questioning whether or not you wife actually was exercising eu rights between 2006-2009. I have already stated in my earlier posts, that the law is very liberal as what exercising eu rights means. ie if a worker or a job seeker. A student clearly are exercising their rights if they are self sufficient (which i already acknowledged that the sources of this is irrelevant, provided that your source is legal, which i have not suggested that it was not - however, that is questionable if your wife was not after assessment, actually exercising rights. your rights end if wife is not exercising rights, taking into account the exceptions in article 7 , 13,14,16, and 17)

bottom line, all that you are being asked, is to state, whether or not there are any appreciable gaps in time in relation to your wife's legal residency in ireland. ie between work and study. (nothing you have around at minimal 6 months as a jobseeker - it does not appear that she avails of exceptions in article 7) if no gaps, the decision is wrong. you not willing to disclose this. even if there are gaps, i may still be able to correctly advise as to solutions. (then issues about you might be considered)

state the actual documents that you actually provided to the minister (ie failure to take into account, properly, her case)

the commission don't seem, assuming to advised them fully, and assuming their are gaps, pay much attention to what the preamble of directive says. ie legal residency.

there is no complex issue here, your the only person perceiving it to be so. what i ask is information regarding the most straight forward and most relevant course (ie in light of the actual refusal by the minister)

walrusgumble wrote:

EUspouse82 wrote:

walrusgumble wrote:

EUspouse82 wrote:
So do you agree that an application can be made before expiration of the residence card? of course I am not an EU citizen, if I was I wont be asking for help.

Many thanks Walrus, I appreciate your help.

are you genuinely a phd holder? you don't come across as one. answer the questions that i have put to you in order to assess whether the dept is correct to say that for 2006-2009 yor wife's residence was limited.

I am currently studying for one Walrus, no need to resort to personal abuse. I am sorry I would not answer your questions because I don't think you are genuinely interested in helping.

Firstly, you are still erroneously arguing that an application for permanent residence cannot be made 6 months before the expiration of the five year residence permit. You are asking sarcastic questions and you come across as quite condescending.

I will be patient and will wait for advise from people who are well versed in matters like this. Thanks once again for your contributions.

There is nothing condescending intended coming from me. You base your opinion on grounds of what others thinks. correct me if i am wrong, but many people here, like you, applied the law in a manner that suited yourselves, and hence why ye are now having problems. you hardly expect to get your phd with the attitude similar to some of your responses do you? you say that you are doing a phd (best of luck) the i expect you to posses intelligence. some of your posts either lack this or refuse to deal with the problems at hand, because it does not suit you (i would imagine its the latter)

my earlier reference to not judging your own case is based on the fact that you alone made comments on your first post regarding the veracity of the decision. i have asked you to state in full the facts of your wife's case because there are holes in what you have provided. i am in no doubt that you did the same when you spoke to the commission. you refuse to provide information

you have made statements that are totally groundless. merely saying is common knowledge is not good enough, and its the sign of a spoofer. again, as a phd student you would know this. you spoke about what happened in the uk, thus, clearly showing a lack a knowledge about eu law.

you fail to have regard to the fact that your permission in ireland, your right to residence and work is solely down to what your wife is doing. from the general facts that you provided there does not seem to be a problem, but the minister clearly has an issue. he is clearly saying that your wife between 2006-2009 is limited. i am asking you to state her history, which you refuse to disclose. i have no doubt you did the same with the commission.

the problem in your wifes's case is this: you both come from the UK (your reference to what happened in uk shows a lack of understanding that eu law only arise when some form of free movement is exercised McCarthy 2011) she moved over with you in June 2006.first 3 months she does not have to do anything, its only when she stays for more than this, she has to comply, in any way, with article 7 of directive 2004/38 ec. then and only then, do you, non eu person, have a right to residency and right to be treated the same as an eu citizen or citizen in host eu state.

your rights in ireland are dependent on her. in order for her to get permanent residency, she needs to comply with 5 years of residence in ireland via article 7 of the directive. once she does this, pr is automatic and applying is merely a confirmation of that right and no more. when you, non eu person applies, you have to show evidence of what your wife has done in those five years. its irrelevant what you have done. you could be a bum for all the state care.

Attached is the Commission Guidelines 2008/2009 on the Directive.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF


http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,, ... 223,0.html


http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/ ... 152_en.htm

"Union citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence, provided that an expulsion decision has not been enforced against them. This right of permanent residence is no longer subject to any conditions. The same rule applies to family members who are not nationals of a Member State and who have lived with a Union citizen for five years. The right of permanent residence is lost only in the event of more than two successive years' absence from the host Member State."




You provided no evidence regarding the permission to make the pr application within 6 months before being entitled to pr. that 20 only says make the application before card expires, ie 2-3 months at most. your erroneously using the 6 month figure also in article 20, as justification. the latter only being a deadline date for decisions. pr is automatic upon getting the 5 years residence persuant to article 7. anything can happen in half a year. its far too large a time span and you have no reliable evidence provided to say that a member state is obliged to consider it earlier than at least 2-3 months before actual entitlement. But you don't have to because you made it in April (2 months before 5 year anniversary ie June or even 4 months ie august when you registered)

but that still gets you no where, the department are questioning whether or not you wife actually was exercising eu rights between 2006-2009. I have already stated in my earlier posts, that the law is very liberal as what exercising eu rights means. ie if a worker or a job seeker. A student clearly are exercising their rights if they are self sufficient (which i already acknowledged that the sources of this is irrelevant, provided that your source is legal, which i have not suggested that it was not - however, that is questionable if your wife was not after assessment, actually exercising rights. your rights end if wife is not exercising rights, taking into account the exceptions in article 7 , 13,14,16, and 17)

bottom line, all that you are being asked, is to state, whether or not there are any appreciable gaps in time in relation to your wife's legal residency in ireland. ie between work and study. (nothing you have around at minimal 6 months as a jobseeker - it does not appear that she avails of exceptions in article 7) if no gaps, the decision is wrong. you not willing to disclose this. even if there are gaps, i may still be able to correctly advise as to solutions. (then issues about you might be considered)

state the actual documents that you actually provided to the minister (ie failure to take into account, properly, her case)

the commission don't seem, assuming to advised them fully, and assuming their are gaps, pay much attention to what the preamble of directive says. ie legal residency.

there is no complex issue here, your the only person perceiving it to be so. what i ask is information regarding the most straight forward and most relevant course (ie in light of the actual refusal by the minister)

Walrus, thank you very much for your advise. You still have not answered my question? Do you still insist that an application for permanent residence cannot be made six months prior to the expiration of the 5 year residence permit?

My doctoral studies have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, I merely stated that at the onset to give the readers some perspective as to my present circumstances. I have not used the fact I am doing a PhD to argue with you, you are the one consistently bringing it up . Questioning the validity of my claim or your view that I do not come across as a research student is entirely your business and not mine. My lecturers/peers where I also incidentally got a masters would slightly disagree with you.

All you have done is obfuscate the discussion by personalizing issues, rambling and you have displayed a lack of understanding of how the EU works for e.g. you still say an application cant be made before the expiration of the residence permit.

I have checked your posts and you seem bitter about the rights that EU citizens enjoy and you seem to have nationalistic tendencies. I have got some good advice on this forum and numerous PMs that have been beneficial. Once again, thanks.

To update other posters/readers who might be interested in the case, Solvit in the UK are currently contacting INIS. SOLVIT requested this morning that I send letters sent to me by INIS and the letters I wrote to them. I was contacted that based on the documentation received and a reading of Article 16 of Directive 2004/38, it appears they have gone beyond the requirements of the directive I will let the forum know of further developments.

I couldn't be bothered scrolling through the paragraphs but one thing I noticed is that someone said you cannot apply for PR 6 months prior to the expiration of a 5 year residence card.

That is incorrect. You are actually advised to apply 6 months prior to the expiration of your residence card because applications can take up to 6 months.

As far as the PR is concerned the INIS found the loophole to refuse your app because your wife is currently drawing unemployment benefit (even though she is studying at present she is studying via FAS for the last 3 years which is in a sense relying on state IMHO). Having said that i think you are in a very good position as you can apply for residency based on Zambrano since you have 3 irish citizen children. In my opinion you should forget about fighting the PR via EU route and go via Zambrano although you will get an initial 3 year STAMP4 upon successful application and will not enjoy the EUFAM4 stamp benefits but atleast it will legalize you back into the system and you can then apply for your naturalization as you have clocked up 5 years in Ireland.

Monifé wrote:I couldn't be bothered scrolling through the paragraphs but one thing I noticed is that someone said you cannot apply for PR 6 months prior to the expiration of a 5 year residence card.

That is incorrect. You are actually advised to apply 6 months prior to the expiration of your residence card because applications can take up to 6 months.

who advises that? how many get approval? links?

eu spouse, there is no law that forces any m/s to decide pr before 6 months of 5th anniversary.two to three months maybe.point out where the commission have publicly in writing demand this. you have made application in reasonable time so its not an issue. what is at issue is whether wife was exercising right.i have never said that she was not.my past opinions in no way take away from fact that i am correct here.you have made no attempt to correct the other issues.by the way,you and your peers should stick to subjects that ye actually know what your talking about. you still refuse to disclose or have not explained your case clearly as to whether minister is correct on the 2006-2009.i dont suggest that you are wrong,bar,that your activities are not relevant.there is some caselaw on this, i will dig it out later

fatty patty wrote:As far as the PR is concerned the INIS found the loophole to refuse your app because your wife is currently drawing unemployment benefit (even though she is studying at present she is studying via FAS for the last 3 years which is in a sense relying on state IMHO). Having said that i think you are in a very good position as you can apply for residency based on Zambrano since you have 3 irish citizen children. In my opinion you should forget about fighting the PR via EU route and go via Zambrano although you will get an initial 3 year STAMP4 upon successful application and will not enjoy the EUFAM4 stamp benefits but atleast it will legalize you back into the system and you can then apply for your naturalization as you have clocked up 5 years in Ireland.

someone with a brain at last! normal eu 1,might be enough, fas is vocational training so falls under 7.zambrano?,jury is out on that one,parent is eu citizen,so state may try to limit zambrano ala deccie v austria (still try it)

walrusgumble wrote:

fatty patty wrote:As far as the PR is concerned the INIS found the loophole to refuse your app because your wife is currently drawing unemployment benefit (even though she is studying at present she is studying via FAS for the last 3 years which is in a sense relying on state IMHO). Having said that i think you are in a very good position as you can apply for residency based on Zambrano since you have 3 irish citizen children. In my opinion you should forget about fighting the PR via EU route and go via Zambrano although you will get an initial 3 year STAMP4 upon successful application and will not enjoy the EUFAM4 stamp benefits but atleast it will legalize you back into the system and you can then apply for your naturalization as you have clocked up 5 years in Ireland.

someone with a brain at last! normal eu 1,might be enough, fas is vocational training so falls under 7.zambrano?,jury is out on that one,parent is eu citizen,so state may try to limit zambrano ala deccie v austria (still try it)

Walrus, like I have always said, thanks for your input. I am not an EU citizen so I think I have the right to apply under the Zambrano route. I am not aware of the Deccie vs Austria so I cant comment on it. I have read the Zambrano case on the INIS website and it says as the parent of an Irish citizen, I can make an application and I will and I believe it would be considered in good faith.

@ Fatty Patty, thanks for the advice, I have considered professional opinions from lawyers, the ICI, MRCI, SOLVIT and the good people on this forum and I have decided to apply under the Zambrano route while also appealing the Permanent residence refusal.

You make a valid point that the fact my spouse has been on back to education could be considered as been dependent on social welfare from the State. However, the directive also makes provisions for people who are involuntary unemployed and have subsequently taken up vocational/training opportunities in the State.

One crucial point however, is determining whether the Non-EU spouse's employment during the period can be accepted as part of the EU citizen exercising his/her treaty rights. This is a grey area alright, not unexpected as it is an issue of interpretation of the directive. We are all aware of the court cases that have clarified convoluted elements of the treaty.

Another area I find confusing and would want clarification is article 16 of the EU 2004/38 directive which states that the EU citizen/family members have a right to permanent residence after 5 years of legal residence and this right is not subject to article 7 of the treaty. Like a poster earlier mentioned, this seemingly implies that that the applicant/s or their spouse must have exercised their treaty rights for a continious period of 5 years, however, Solvit is adamant that this is incorrect transposition of the directive . I read the compliance study for all member states (( http://ec.europa.eu/justice/doc_centre/ ... udy_en.pdf)) and it expressly states that section 3 of the treaty, most importantly article 7 , which is regulation (6) in the Irish transposition of the directive should not be taken into consideration when making a PR decision.

considering that eu citizens can,in principle, be asked to leave if they don't comply with article 7 during this period, they are talking through their hoop.there is no publication from the commission or council to support solvents contention.there are about 4-5 cases on pr,check them up.eu are hardly going to reward people who did not comply with art 7 for 5 years are they? re article 16,this exemption on art 7 refers to once pr is achieved.read the preamble. i have posted the relevant cases on pr on the tax post.i believe that it supports my arguments.ie diaz case.hopefully you will stick to your own expert areas from now on,unless you can back it up.best of luck though.unlike solvent & commission its the member states that draft n adopt legislation.seems rather strange that those states SHARE the same interpretation to article 16?solvent seem to ignore what the courts say ie what legal residency means. (see the other thread) solvent =gloried citizens information office of ireland, but better trained.

EUspouse82 wrote:I would like to seek the help of the good people on this forum. I arrived Ireland with my spouse who is British June 2006 and in August recieved a 5 year EU residence permit. I made an application for permanent residence in April of this year and I got a refusal letter this morning.
My situation is as follows,My wife worked for about 6 months but lost her job in 2007, I worked for 9 months but my company moved from Ireland. Since then we registered with FAS and decided to go to college. My wife is currently in the third year of a state sponsored course. I completed a masters degree and I am currently a Phd student in my college. INIS said the refusal is based

As has been said before, it is not enough to show 5 years of EU FAM stamps. In the PR application, it must be shown that the spouse has been exercising EU Treaty rights at all times during the 5 years of residency.

The timelines of when your wife lost her job (I presume this was involuntary) and when she started her case are all important as to whehter you are eligible for PR. Just as important is your ability to show proof of same.

Some interesting cases are coming from the CJEU on the importance of lawful residence under national law for the purpose of PR under the directive. As British citizens have legal rights to reside in Ireland irrespective of whether they fulfill the conditions under thee directive , i believe it would be unlawful to refuse PR to a British and Hence there family members could succeed aswell

Obie wrote:Some interesting cases are coming from the CJEU on the importance of lawful residence under national law for the purpose of PR under the directive. As British citizens have legal rights to reside in Ireland irrespective of whether they fulfill the conditions under thee directive , i believe it would be unlawful to refuse PR to a British and Hence there family members could succeed aswell

Obie, where is your contention for that? There have being several cases before the CJEU, involving free movement between both Ireland and UK. Not once did an Advocate General or applicant's make such a comment, nor did the Court look favorably at it. It is clear why that is so

For now, this OP (who is not British themselves) is not at risk of their residency being

Brit does not comply with EU law's own rules. ie 5 year legal residency. EU law accept refusal. EU law don't apply. It don't matter what other favorable arrangements there maybe thereafter (ie when EU law allows refusal / don't apply). If the Treaty wanted to do the contrary, it would have contained a protocol or an express provision in the Treaty. It does not.

EU law can not dictate on the Irish - British special agreement, in the scenerio that you suggest. To suggest such an approach highlights one's complete ignorance of EU law and the actual special agreement (which in most scenerio' looses its relevancy in light of EU law)

That agreement is between Irish and British Citizens. There is no provision whatsoever, in the Special Agreement, regarding the Right to Family Reunification, in particular, Family Reunification involving a Non EU person. Granted, British people would be treated far more advantageous, the same can not always be said for their non eu family (Just take EU law out of the way for one second). The same applies to Irish in UK

However, it is inherent, that when a Brit comes here or an Irish goes over to Britain, its EU law that is invoked.

Even if the EU law did not exist and it was only that arrangement, there is nothing in principle stopping the Irish and British Authorities from kicking out British and Irish People out of their jurisdictions under their respective domestic laws, if they were eg, economically inactive for several years or they committed crime (Many Irish have been deported from the UK for the latter). In fact, it is now harder to do so, as EU law superceedes this.

If EU law does not recognise that the law is broken, how can you justify your comment. When EU law don't apply then no state has obligations.

Thirdly, and far more relevant, there are no provisions for Permanent Residency under the Irish - British Scheme. PR is solely on EU law issue. This topic is about the OP being refused PR not residency itself. It is not possible to provide an intelligent explanation that British and Ireland are forced to provide PR when EU law itself does not, on the facts of this case, require them to do so, at this particular time.


This board at times is getting ridiculous. You might only be expressing an opinion as oppose to giving advice. If its the former, ok, that's your opinion and your entitled to it but please highlight that it is such, because if its the latter, you would be giving completely illogical and unfounded suggestions and falsely getting some people's hopes up. At least make an attempt to provide some objectionable evidence, as oppose to making up the rules. Please.

With due respect, your interpretation on the Common Travel Area is wishful thinking

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... he_uk.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

A poster on Politics.ie claims to have written to the Commission to complain about the Scheme on the grounds of discrimination (seems not able to understand what is required of "legal" discrimination )

In that case it was talking about the basic entry into the country. Commission sees absolutely nothing wrong with the Scheme.

http://www.politics.ie/forum/transport/ ... -area.html

How can a eg a German complain about discrimination in say British (feeling that they are being treated different to an Irish person) if the German themselves have no rights under EU law to reside (because he don't meet the criteria)? No state has an obligation to allow them stay, its up to them to keep who they want under there own laws. How can you complain discrimination ? Treat like for like and unequal are treated differently. Here, the Germans would fall into the second category.

Again, this issue is for PR, it does not mean OP will have to leave the country. Renewal should be possible via EU 1 or at worse, in "exceptional case" even under domestic law.

mods, i had initially duplicated the same posts. Please delete this message, I can't seem to find the delete button

irish tom did you watch what happen in rathmines today ??????lol

IQU wrote:irish tom did you watch what happen in rathmines today ??????lol

What happened?

around 2260 applicant take oath to became irish citizens.www.inis.gov.ie