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a11
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Location: London

Post by a11 » Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:15 pm

Hi, just thought I would cross-post a news msg from vbsi website in here:

HSMP rally in Parliament square this Wednesday at 11am
"Monday 27 November 2006"

The focus of the protest action, organised by the HSMP2006 group, is the recent changes to HSMP visa extension policy. However, this will also be a good opportunity to express general concerns about the continued introduction of retroactive changes to the immigration policy.
We encourage everyone to attend the event.

WP_Holder_05_2002
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Post by WP_Holder_05_2002 » Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:56 pm

Any update regarding JR please...

ssi
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Post by ssi » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:55 pm

WP_Holder_05_2002 wrote:Any update regarding JR please...
Update on Judicial Review date
"Thursday 09 November 2006"
Harvey Son & Filby Solicitors have been informed by the Court that the decision on the preliminary application will be made after the BAPIO case is heard in the beginning of December.
Correspondence with the Court continues and further requests to expedite the hearing are being made.
http://www.vbsi.org.uk/index.php?mact=N ... eturnid=15

ATBPLC
Junior Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:33 pm

Post by ATBPLC » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:38 pm

LETTER FROM HOME SECRETARY IN RESPONSE TO IMMIGRATIONS LAWYERS REACTION TO CHANGES

Consultation and timing:

I should first clarify that these changes are not the points based
system (PBS) and that we have not yet introduced the PBS. The
changes are, as the announcement stated, the first step towards the
pes, but they are different to that system. The new attributes are
indeed the same as those set out in the PBS Command Paper. However,
we have changed the HSMP attributes on two previous occasions within
the brief lifetime of the programme and these changes are not
different in kind to those. Indeed, HSMP has always been a
'points based system'. Many of the features which will define the
PBS - the
introduction of control tests (for example, funds), the move to a
one-stage
decision process for Tiers 1-3, and the removal of the right of
appeal in entry
clearance cases - have not been introduced with this change. It is
therefore
not correct to assert that we have now introduced the PBS without
consultation.


It is not our normal practice to carry out formal public
consultations on changes to the Immigration Rules, and I strongly
dispute the contention that we have broken any undertakings to
consult.


The changes will come into effect on 5 December and we will be
monitoring their impact, fully evaluating the new arrangements
before we make formal preparations for the implementation of Tier 1
of the PBS.

An announcement of a definite policy change within three weeks
would, I believe, have led to an even larger increase in the number
of applications, which would have resulted in very significant
operational difficulties, and, as a result, poor customer service
for applicants. In the light of this, there is no reason not to
bring the changes in quickly. However, by making the forms and
guidance available during the suspension period, we have tried to
avoid inconveniencing our clients.

You are also concerned that people who were in the process of
preparing
their HSMP applications have been disadvantaged by the changes. I
accept
that applicants in some cases may need to make further enquiries to
obtain additional documents, but this is unlikely to result in
significant additional expense - applicants will possess many of the
necessary documents themselves and are likely to be able to use some
of the others which they were already preparing to submit. In fact,
applicants can still submit applications on the old FLR (lED) form
during the suspension period, so they will not necessarily have to
redo their whole application. They can either send in additional
material or wait for us to write out to them, requesting additional
documents.

Tests at extension

I do not accept that those who receive a grant of leave in a
category have
a legitimate expectation that the rules for further grants of leave
within that
category which existed at the time of their first grant of leave
will apply to them
for the rest of the time that they spend in the UK. The rules must
be capable
of being changed from time to time so that the Government can carry
out its
policies - in this case, to ensure that those granted further leave
to remain
under HSMP will benefit the UK economy. The power to make changes to
the
Immigration Rules, as laid out in the Immigration Act 1971, is not
restricted to
changing the rules for entry, or to changing the leave to remain
rules only for
those who obtained leave to enter when those were in force. The only
expectation which applicants should have is that the rules and
policies which
are in force when their application is decided will be correctly
applied to them.

Indeed, it has never been guaranteed that applicants would qualify
for
further or indefinite leave to remain, so there has always been the
risk of not
qualifying for further leave. We have merely tightened up the rules.
I also do
not believe that this is incompatible with the requirement under
HSMP to have
made the UK your main home. This does not require the severing of all
connections with the country of origin and refers to the need to
make the UK
your main home during the course of your leave, which is necessary
for highly
skilled migrants.

As you know, we have introduced extensive transitional arrangements
to
ensure that we retain many of the talented people who will not pass
the new
points test for extension applications. These cater both for the
self-employed
and independent contractors, and make the process of switching into
work
permit employment for those who have been in employment easier. I am
satisfied that this will allow the vast majority of people who have
been
economically active, but who will not pass the points test, to be
granted further
leave to remain.

The statement in the consultation document on the PBS that HSMP
Participants and work permit holders will be able to qualify for
permanent
Residence remains correct. That statement did not, however, imply
that the qualifying criteria for grants of leave under those
categories would remain
Unchanged.

I note your concerns about the introduction into the two new
prescribed
forms of a declaration that applicants recognise that the
Immigration Rules
may change during the course of their leave. This does not introduce
a new
power. As I explain above, we are already able to change the rules
in this
manner. This merely makes it explicitly clear to the applicant that
this is
possible, and so is in the interests of applicants. The introduction
of this
clause is not intended to justify the current changes, nor does it
imply that
applicants would not have been aware of this possibility beforehand.
The
power which this clause describes is not about changing 'the basis
of [the
applicant's] status at any point in the future without any notice at
all', as you
write. Unless there are individual reasons to curtail somebody's
leave, which
do not relate to broad policy changes, applicants will always be
able to
complete their existing leave. The issue in this case is about
future grants of
leave. I understand that you feel that there should have been
consultation
about the introduction of this clause. It would not be practicable
for us to
consult on the introduction of every new clause into a form,
especially when
the clause relates to the exercise of an existing power.

New attributes

You have raised a number of issues concerning the changes to the
points
scoring criteria.

We have removed the points for work experience in favour of those for
previous earnings. When drawing up policy before the publication of
the PBS Command Paper, my officials carried out an analysis of
existing HSMP participants at the further leave to remain stage.
Those applicants who had scored points for previous salary were
earning significantly more than those who had not, and those who had
not (those who tended to score the majority of their points on the
basis of previous work experience) were often not in highly skilled
employment. We believe that the best judge of whether an applicant
has the appropriate experience to succeed in the labour market is
an employer, rather than an immigration official.

People with work experience but a lower previous salary are welcome
to apply for a work permit; their prospective employer will often
offer them a job on this basis. This is reflected in the responses
to the consultation. The consultation response covered both Tiers 1
and 2, and the emphasis on the importance of work experience as
opposed to salary is likely to be more in relation to Tier 2. This
was the impression which my officials gained from their analysis of
the consultation responses. Finally, previous salary is a
much clearer, more objective attribute than work experience, and the
responses to the consultation listed objectivity as the most
important factor in drawing up the new system.

We have emphasised the degree requirement because we are satisfied
that those applicants with degrees are likely to be those who best
meet the aims of the HSMP. Applicants may also apply on the basis of
equivalent level professional qualifications and those without a
degree may apply under other categories of the Immigration Rules. We
have included points for age in order to reward young, highly
skilled migrants who have good salaries for their age, but who may
struggle to gain enough previous salary points because of their
lack of work experience. The inclusion of points for age is a natural
consequence of the inclusion of those for previous salary.

The Home Office has not made misleading statements about the
inclusion of work experience as an attribute, nor have we ignored the
responses to the consultation. As I have mentioned, the responses
about previous work experience in the consultation are likely to
have related more to Tier 2. We gave very strong consideration to
the consultation responses, but we may sometimes take a different
view, particularly if our analysis has led to
different conclusions. Any comments on work experience in the five
year
strategy reflected our thinking at that time and predated that
analysis - had
we already made a definite decision in February 2005 that points
would be
included for certain factors, this would have made the consultation
superfluous.

It is correct that those who switch into another category will not
be able to
use their previous leave under HSMP to qualify for settlement.
Although I am
aware that this may cause frustration to some people, the
Immigration Rules
are drafted in this way (and have been for some time) because those
switching from HSMP into another route may not have been economically
active during their HSMP leave.

Any set of attributes which we choose is likely to exclude some
highly skilled people. I am satisfied that the new requirements for
HSMP will exclude as few of these people as possible and that they
contain sufficient flexibility to cater for talented people from
across the world.

I do understand your concerns and I realise that the introduction of
these changes may at first lead to some uncertainty amongst those
who apply for the HSMP. However, I am satisfied that these changes
strike the correct balance between the need to address the needs of
HSMP applicants with the need to carry out policies which are in the
interests of the UK.

For the reasons which I have set out, I am afraid that I cannot
agree that the changes be suspended pending formal consultation, or
that the old rules for extension applications be applied to those
already in the UK. Regarding your request for confirmation that at
least twenty-one days' notice be given for all future Rules changes,
we will always endeavour to give this notice unless there are strong
reasons not to, as there were in this case.

___________________________________________________

rg1
Member of Standing
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:08 pm

Post by rg1 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:28 am

In a nutshell, the above reply shows

Home Office simply doesn't care for us. They justifies their act and in future they will do similar (or even more harmful) changes AGAIN AND AGAIN.


This is really frustrating.
:cry:

I personally feel that now we should not "daydream" of getting ILR anymore and plan our lives accordingly - save as much money and back to our homeland where we came from! Sorry to be sound negative, but neither media nor govt. is with us. Now I realize why some people decide to stay illegally. The laws are illegal.

ATBPLC
Junior Member
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:33 pm

Post by ATBPLC » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:13 am

Fellow compatriot,

It is a serious matter. Some of us were even thinking we will try and convince our employer to sponsor us under WP, they are now saying once you change all years under HSMP are waisted. These people hate us.

first2last4
Member
Posts: 210
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:38 am

Post by first2last4 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:53 am

So it is confirmed that though switching from WP to HSMP will not reset the ILR time, but switching from HSMP to WP or any other category will reset the ILR time.
Knowledge which is concealed is lost -Hadith

badhorse
Newbie
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:03 am
Location: LIVERPOOL

Post by badhorse » Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:03 pm

"It is correct that those who switch into another category will not be able to use their previous leave under HSMP to qualify for settlement. Although I am aware that this may cause frustration to some people, the
Immigration Rules are drafted in this way (and have been for some time) because those switching from HSMP into another route may not have been economically active during their HSMP leave. "


Shocking!

What logic is that?

It is pure monstrous hatrid of us!

a11
Member
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:13 pm
Location: London

Post by a11 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:16 pm

This is really shocking.
These people have no conscience.
On the other hand, these are the same people who send their troops to kill (and die) in Iraq, so what should we expect?

a11
Member
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:13 pm
Location: London

Post by a11 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:20 pm

Hi ATBPLC,

Thanks very much for posting this letter.
We at VBSI would really like to get hold of its (faxed/scanned) copy - or at least find out more as to who exactly he was replying to.
Would it be possible? PM's are not working properly, so can you please drop me a line at msp.vbsi at gmail.com
Thanks!

badhorse
Newbie
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:03 am
Location: LIVERPOOL

Post by badhorse » Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:46 pm

Could someone please let us know roughly:

(1) how many members/contacts VBSI have got (including HSMPs and WPs)?

(2) how many members/contacts the HSMP Yahoo group have got?

(3) are VBSI and the HSMP Yahoo group co-ordinating? If not, what is the difficulty?

Can we be ready for a rally? I mean a carefully planned demonstration, say in Mar/April/May 2007? It can only be in the new year because many people who work can only arrange annual leave well in advance.

Also, this time, we should expose this event to international Media. That needs time for preparation.

I guess what I really want to know is whether we have got an organisation or not. The Gov have made it 100% clear that retrospective rule change is what they are doing and will do in the future. It is a grave threat to all immigrants, especially WPs and HSMPs.

We have not choice but to have our own Union to protect us!

a11
Member
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:13 pm
Location: London

Post by a11 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:03 pm

VBSI and HSMP groups are in close collaboration as far as the PR/lobbying/public protest actions are concerned. As you might have already learned from the VBSI or HSMP website, today there has been holding a protest action in Parliament square.

Unfortunately, VBSI and HSMP probably cannot go together for a single JR, since we have to argue against separate Home Office legislations.

There are quite a few members in the two groups altogether, but not so many of them are actively involved. So your help to either (or both) of the groups will be greatly appreciated. VBSI have established good contacts, links and developed experience in the course of the battle, but unfortunately we have encountered a very strong resistance at the top of the governmental hierarchy. Further action is impossible without active involvement of everyone affected.

morerightsformigrants
Junior Member
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:21 pm

Post by morerightsformigrants » Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:15 pm

from that letter you can clearly see what the home office is trying to do, and it's letting us know. they can simply change the rules whenever they want.......... it's so frustrating........ now i know how those people who are trapped in the war zone feel like.............. your life changes all the sudden(even though you didn't ask for it) but they think they know best what's best for you (for them).............. and there's nothing you can do about it.

where are your rights..? that's just bullocks to me. there are rights only if you are a british.

sorry if i have offended anyone but that's how what that letter and all the things that has happenned recently makes me feel ............

i personally think that all the lobbying and demonstration are just a waste of time.. they are not going to change their way unless you force them to and i am afraid the only way to do so is by legal action.......

rg1
Member of Standing
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:08 pm

Post by rg1 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:32 pm

unfortunately we have encountered a very strong resistance at the top of the governmental hierarchy
Could you please elaborate?

a11
Member
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:13 pm
Location: London

Post by a11 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:05 pm

unfortunately, some lobbying-related information is too sensitive for public disclosure (i.e., who spoke to who and what they said), but most things are listed at vbsi.org.uk.

a11
Member
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:13 pm
Location: London

Post by a11 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:08 pm

The legal action is underway, but the court is not giving us the leave to go for a JR yet. They want to see how the Indian Doctors' case goes - which will be heard on the 8th of December.
We, however, feel that other factors, like the media coverage/protest actions etc, will also have an effect on whether the court finds our case worth being heard.

WP_Holder_05_2002
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Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:19 pm

Post by WP_Holder_05_2002 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:53 pm

It doesn't look like that we are in great britain. Their decision are being chnaged overnight. The HO latest letter shows their mental level. It is not a problem, UK is not the end of the world. We are highly skilled people and world is open for us. I would suggest that we should look for better place.

badhorse
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Posts: 43
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Location: LIVERPOOL

Post by badhorse » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:20 pm

Like some of you, I was wondering about the source of the letter that ATBPLC posted. I think it was originally posted here in the HSMP group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HSMP2006/message/682

It was from amitkhsmp <amitkhsmp@yahoo.com>.

If this is really what Liam said, then he just revealed that he wanted to make HSMPs' life like hell. Especially the talking about reseting ILR clock after switching from HSMP to WPs. It is unbelievable!

nonothing
Member
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:04 pm

Post by nonothing » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:25 am

this letter clearly tells us that the HO now believe the previous HSMP criteria was a failure and well abused. they want to put it "right" and kick those THEY think are "fake" HSMP out of this country.

the HO made a mistake, but they want others pay the price. the potential lines in their mind are "we're ruling this country, we're the daddy. we can invite anyone in as well as kick anyone out in the best interests of ourselves."

tobiashomer
Junior Member
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:24 pm

Post by tobiashomer » Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:49 am

Nonothing, I sympathise totally with your frustration; I feel just as wounded by all this. But it all boils down to these words of Liam Byrne:
I do not accept that those who receive a grant of leave in a
category have a legitimate expectation that the rules for further grants of leave within that category which existed at the time of their first grant of leave will apply to them for the rest of the time that they spend in the UK. The rules must be capable of being changed from time to time so that the Government can carry out its policies - in this case, to ensure that those granted further leave to remain under HSMP will benefit the UK economy.
That basically says it all. We will decide if you are being useful to the economy (read: "to the public's short-term perception of government policies and our efficiency at executing them"). And do whatever it takes to keep the tabloids off our case. I plan to frame the official extension letter from HO 3 years ago, saying that I could apply for ILR next month, and hang it on my wall, as a reminder to my children not to trust ANYONE.

If the main thrust of our movement is to whine (I have done my share on this forum) about our personal hardships, and our resentment at the bureaucrats who are responsible for all this, we will get nowhere. In my opinion our only slight chance rides on our being able to prove that HSMP was a good idea, that it attracted worthwhile people who are making a positive contribution to the UK economy, paying taxes and playing by the rules. Only if we can do that will our legal challenge (which I now understand has not even achieved JR status) be taken seriously.

The mood has changed since the beginning of HSMP and "Government policies" are now to get the work-related and ILR numbers down in real time--that is, in time for the election. And we are the soft target as we have no-one within the establishment to speak for us. The doctors have their highly organised colleagues in the NHS and the public who benefit from their services; we are dispersed and disparate, making us the ideal fodder for statistics that prove this government is efficiently carrying out its policies. And if people making a real positive contribution to the economy and society in general are deported, so what? Politics is all about perception, not reality. If we can't change that--and not just squeal "not fair!" "it hurts!" we will lose.

badhorse
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Post by badhorse » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:22 pm

Friends,

We need to confirm the source of this ILR clock reseting thing.

Did Liam really say it? To whom? When and Where?

Is this something that can be confirmed?

How come it was leaked to the public domain?

What is the current official line on this issue?

It is tricky!

badhorse
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Location: LIVERPOOL

Post by badhorse » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:36 pm

tobiashomer wrote: Politics is all about perception, not reality. If we can't change that--and not just squeal "not fair!" "it hurts!" we will lose.
Tobiashomer,

I admire your inspiration and agree with you in principle, but I don't think we can live long enough to see the changes in politics, unless the genetic techonology has a breakthrough in the next 50 years.

I think you are spot on saying we don't have anyone who can speak for us. I think we should have our own organisation or even party, even it is very small.

The UK politics is getting crazy in the sense that 3 major parties are the same in terms of day-to-day policies, therefore the country is split to 49.5%-49.5%. If we immigrants have a small party, say 1% voting power then we will decide which major party win the elections.

Of course, this is long term thinking. Now, we need to concentrate on legal action.

samkma
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Location: Wales GB
United Kingdom

Post by samkma » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:39 pm

Ready to join forces

try-one
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Location: London

Post by try-one » Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:07 pm

It is correct that those who switch into another category will not
be able to
use their previous leave under HSMP to qualify for settlement.
Although I am
aware that this may cause frustration to some people, the
Immigration Rules
are drafted in this way (and have been for some time) because those
switching from HSMP into another route may not have been economically
active during their HSMP leave.
The end is nigh.......
HO realized that HSMP was a failure; now they plan to send everyone back.......let me present an example:
arrived on WP 2002 Nov, switched to HSMP Jan 05......HO changed law so no ILR on 2006 Nov...
Let's asume I can't qualify for ILR next year...then I would have to switch to WP 2007 Nov.....my clock gets re set from 2007 and I have to work here for five years on a WP always relying on an employer....by 2012 I will be able to apply for ILR....10 YEARS AFTER I CAME!!!!!!!!!
Beatiful, I'm south american, I can't vote in this country....for those of you who can...please, please make them pay in the next election.
-------------------------
Life is a journey, not a destination (S. Tyler)

rella
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Post by rella » Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:45 pm

What I don't understand is if the HO were so alarmed at the number of people applying and being approved under HSMP, then why didn't they just change the points requirement and make it 75 or 85 or something? And why did they keep approving people for extension who hadn't found a job if they were so bothered by that? There were ways of addressing all this before they let it reach this point and made a decision to penalize lots of people who had settled here for 4 or 5 years and who are doing perfectly fine.

I'm still waiting for confirmation that they are restarting ILR clocks on HSMP holders. I really can't believe that they would be that nasty. What would be the point? Why would HSMP holders be less entitled to settlement than a WP holder? It makes no sense.

Our visas expired last week. I'll let you guys know what happens with us. We are completely dependent on the mercy of the caseworker. We took a major chance to start a business... We'll see if we lost big time.

I still think that everyone should appeal if their visas expire and FLR is refused. Things could change over the next several months and if everyone just gives up and goes home, it could be a costly mistake.

Locked