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Citizenship and Traffic offence

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe

ayshab
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Re: Citizenship and Traffic offence

Post by ayshab » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:10 pm

friend12345 wrote:
ayshab wrote:
friend12345 wrote:
ayshab wrote:
IN10 ( driving without insurance) and 6 points on my license, although it wasnt my fault n got compensation etc. I got my ILR with this conviction.
Well we went to apply as a family to NCS, they told me not to apply with the family as theres a high risk that because of me , the whole joint application will be rejected so i shud let my family apply ( which they did) n i shud wait till the conviction is spent which is like in Jan 2013. I have no other traffic offence or any troubles with police etc.
Did you apply OR not then? I applied with conviction LC 20 ( driving on international licence for more than a year which I didnt know ) 3 points no fine, HO took my fees today so fingers crossed.
Hope for good.
Good Luck[/quote

No I havent yet. Not sure whether to take the risk or not.
Best of luck to you. Let me know how you got on.
Did you apply through NCS?
No, I applied myself as NCS told me they are instructed not to take any applications if the applicant has an.unspent conviction. I checked CW guidance notes which clearly says that they can disregard a minor unspent conviction if the applicant is suitable for citizenship in all other aspects.
I will let you the outcome :)
Good Luck
IN 10( driving without insurance) is considered a criminal offence n not a minor. If you have read CWs notes, what do you think? Do I stand a chance? I wont quote you on it later on,just taking your idea. :o)

friend12345
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Posts: 128
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: Citizenship and Traffic offence

Post by friend12345 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:37 pm

ayshab wrote:
friend12345 wrote:
ayshab wrote:
friend12345 wrote: Did you apply OR not then? I applied with conviction LC 20 ( driving on international licence for more than a year which I didnt know ) 3 points no fine, HO took my fees today so fingers crossed.
Hope for good.
Good Luck[/quote

No I havent yet. Not sure whether to take the risk or not.
Best of luck to you. Let me know how you got on.
Did you apply through NCS?
No, I applied myself as NCS told me they are instructed not to take any applications if the applicant has an.unspent conviction. I checked CW guidance notes which clearly says that they can disregard a minor unspent conviction if the applicant is suitable for citizenship in all other aspects.
I will let you the outcome :)
Good Luck
IN 10( driving without insurance) is considered a criminal offence n not a minor. If you have read CWs notes, what do you think? Do I stand a chance? I wont quote you on it later on,just taking your idea. :o)
I know driving without insurance is a serious offence but if you got ILR without any hassle then BC should be ok too, seniors please advise.
Also, check this link below:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary
Section 3

DEVONIAN
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Re: Citizenship and Traffic offence

Post by DEVONIAN » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:57 pm

friend12345 wrote:
ayshab wrote:
friend12345 wrote:
ayshab wrote: No, I applied myself as NCS told me they are instructed not to take any applications if the applicant has an.unspent conviction. I checked CW guidance notes which clearly says that they can disregard a minor unspent conviction if the applicant is suitable for citizenship in all other aspects.
I will let you the outcome :)
Good Luck
IN 10( driving without insurance) is considered a criminal offence n not a minor. If you have read CWs notes, what do you think? Do I stand a chance? I wont quote you on it later on,just taking your idea. :o)
I know driving without insurance is a serious offence but if you got ILR without any hassle then BC should be ok too, seniors please advise.
Also, check this link below:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary
Section 3


Conviction for driving whilst uninsured (an absolute criminal offence) and/or conviction for driving without a valid licence (as in the case of using international driving licence for more than 1 year after arriving in the UK) attracts fines and penalty points. The latter (i.e. penalty points) are subsequently endorsed on your UK driving licence (full or provisional) if and when you obtain one. Whilst it takes 4 years, from the date of conviction, to have the endorsement removed, the convictions only become spent after 5 years. Now, an ILR applicant could scale through getting their ILR before these convictions become spent. Generally, they do! Conversely, however, there is a 100% probability that having unspent conviction(s) at the point of applying for British Citizenship automatically leads to an unsuccessful application. Personally, I would wait until any convictions become spent. But, since you’ve already applied, it’s a case of fingers crossed for you! Whatever happens, do keep us posted. Best wishes!

makkan00
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Post by makkan00 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:41 pm

I have read many topics on this.
Friend12345, you stand a good chance and I am sure you will get BC soon.
Your offence is minor as you got 3 points only and you had to pay for fee court and not fine.
The annex which you attached earlier clearly says that if you get the points from the court as if police cannot give you (on int'l license) then that is considered as FPP.

Friend12345, all the best, and let me know how you get on with it.


Ayshab, I am not discouraging you, but driving without insurance comes under umbrella term 'deception' and it is dealt with all the seriousness.
I would strongly suggest you to wait til, it becomes 'spent'. You have ILR, so why rushing toward BC. Go for it, when safe.

All the best.
Last edited by makkan00 on Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

friend12345
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Post by friend12345 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:19 am

makkan00 wrote:I have read many topics on this.
Friend12345, you stand chance and I am sure you will get BC soon.
Your offence is minor as you got 3 points only and you had to pay for fee court and not find.
The annex which you attached earlier clearly says that if you get the points from the court as if police cannot give you (on int'l license) then that is considered as FPP.

Friend12345, all the best, and let me know how you get on with it.


Ayshab, I am not discouraging you, but driving without insurance comes under umbrella term 'deception' and it is dealt with all the seriousness.
I would strongly suggest you to wait til, it becomes 'spent'. You have ILR, so why rusing toward BC. Go for it, when safe.

All the best.
Thanks makkan, will defo update once I hear something back, everything crossed till then Lol!!!
Good luck to you too.
Good things come to those who wait.

friend12345
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: Citizenship and Traffic offence

Post by friend12345 » Thu May 17, 2012 3:52 pm

Smallfamily wrote:
friend12345 wrote:
Smallfamily wrote:Yes u must declare it :!:

if you went to court which is very likely because driving on international licence is considered to be serious so they always send court summons...then yes they will refuse ur appliaction. You must wait until it gets spent.

If you didn't had to go to the court which is very unlikely and you gave fine etc then u should be fine for ur application.

To be honest it is not possible that you can't remember whether you been the court or not :shock:
I do remember I got summons from the court But I didnt go there to get prosecuted or anything else, I just went there and plead guilty, secondly all International licences are dealt by court as Police cant deal with them, that is what case worked checked in my police record or crb whatever they check and said everything was clear that is how I was granted my ILR recently.
If there was anything to do with my unspent conviction or anything popped up on my name in CRB then I should of not got ILR at the first place.
This is normal, you get summons and then you plead guilty during court proceeding... they don't prosecute you anyway...

But to be honest, not sure how come they gave u ILR. You should wait as what you have told us from that you still have conviction so u should wait to be on a safe side... u may lose ur application fee! But at end of the day its ur decision.
Hi Guys!!!
Just to update I got my passport and other supporting documents back today with the letter confirming that my application is successful and that I will receive invitation letter in couple of weeks. I was given 3 penalty points by Magistrate court for driving on International licence for over a year with offence code ( LC 20 ) and I got my ILR approved with same conviction which I had in 2008 which means I was still under 5 years period, It says on UKBA website that if applicat is suitable in all other aspects then we will normally disregard one minor unspent conviction
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary
So, don't listen to all those scaremongers and go ahead if you are satisfied with you documentation.
I wish you all the best :D

geriatrix
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Location: does it matter?

Post by geriatrix » Thu May 17, 2012 5:09 pm

It is not scaremongering ....

but a simple fact that a driving offence when in possession of an international driving licence (specially one that cannot be exchanged for a UK licence) can only be dealt by the court ... not the police.

And in such cases, if convicted by court, not all can be automatically be considered "unpsent conviction" ....and certainly not "3 points on the licence"!!

It's like "3 points on the licence" imposed by a judge because the police couldn't have imposed the same on you (because they can't).
Last edited by geriatrix on Thu May 17, 2012 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Life isn't fair, but you can be!

makkan00
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Post by makkan00 » Thu May 17, 2012 5:59 pm

Congrats friend 12345 and all the best for citizenship application next year.

friend12345
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Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:39 am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Post by friend12345 » Thu May 17, 2012 6:53 pm

sushdmehta wrote:It is not scaremongering ....

but a simple fact that a driving offence when in possession of an international driving licence (specially one that cannot be exchanged for a UK licence) can only be dealt by the court ... not the police.

And in such cases, if convicted by court, not all can be automatically be considered "unpsent conviction" ....and certainly not "3 points on the licence"!!

It's like "3 points on the licence" imposed by a judge because the police couldn't have imposed the same on you (because they can't).
Exactly Sushdmehta, my point is the same that it all depends on the nature of the conviction but I was told by same person several times even when applying for my ILR that if I have 3 points on Licence for driving on international licence I must wait till its spent otherwise my application will be refused, thats what I meant by Scaremongering....
I got some very useful information on this forum and I really appreciate that and thankful to everyone who helped me all the way through.
Thanks once again.

prateekgaur20
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Re: Citizenship and Traffic offence

Post by prateekgaur20 » Thu May 17, 2012 9:41 pm

friend12345 wrote:
Smallfamily wrote:
friend12345 wrote:
Smallfamily wrote:Yes u must declare it :!:

if you went to court which is very likely because driving on international licence is considered to be serious so they always send court summons...then yes they will refuse ur appliaction. You must wait until it gets spent.

If you didn't had to go to the court which is very unlikely and you gave fine etc then u should be fine for ur application.

To be honest it is not possible that you can't remember whether you been the court or not :shock:
I do remember I got summons from the court But I didnt go there to get prosecuted or anything else, I just went there and plead guilty, secondly all International licences are dealt by court as Police cant deal with them, that is what case worked checked in my police record or crb whatever they check and said everything was clear that is how I was granted my ILR recently.
If there was anything to do with my unspent conviction or anything popped up on my name in CRB then I should of not got ILR at the first place.
This is normal, you get summons and then you plead guilty during court proceeding... they don't prosecute you anyway...

But to be honest, not sure how come they gave u ILR. You should wait as what you have told us from that you still have conviction so u should wait to be on a safe side... u may lose ur application fee! But at end of the day its ur decision.
Hi Guys!!!
Just to update I got my passport and other supporting documents back today with the letter confirming that my application is successful and that I will receive invitation letter in couple of weeks. I was given 3 penalty points by Magistrate court for driving on International licence for over a year with offence code ( LC 20 ) and I got my ILR approved with same conviction which I had in 2008 which means I was still under 5 years period, It says on UKBA website that if applicat is suitable in all other aspects then we will normally disregard one minor unspent conviction
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary
So, don't listen to all those scaremongers and go ahead if you are satisfied with you documentation.
I wish you all the best :D
Congratulations friend12345....It's really a good news & relief for many people.My case is very similar to yours got (LC20) in 2009...Could you please provide me you agents contact details ,cover letters & Documents list..I'll really appreciate for this information....You case should be put under one category on this form by moderator as it'll help lots of people...

joshtr81
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Post by joshtr81 » Sat May 19, 2012 12:34 am

congratulations. I also have LC20, £30 fine and 3 points, I sent my applicaiton off in middle of Feb but still waiting for response, although HO have returned all my documents. Congratulations again, hopefully I will get good news soon!

1273
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Location: LONDON

LC20- Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence...

Post by 1273 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:48 pm

I have been convicted July 2010 of traffic offence LC20-Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence, fined 150.00 and 3 points... I received ILR August 2010. Would have been able to apply for Naturalization August 2011.

I haven't applied for Naturalization as I am thinking I might waste the money due to 5 years unspent rules. I have considered the fact that there are guidelines that suggests if there is only one conviction and ALL other is fine, then the casework can use their discretion. A solicitor said that he would apply on my behalf as he thinks I have a good chance.

Still haven't decided what I will do. I have applied for a Enhanced Criminal Disclosure to see whats on it.

Any ideas??
WOW

friend12345
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: LC20- Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licenc

Post by friend12345 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:06 am

1273 wrote:I have been convicted July 2010 of traffic offence LC20-Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence, fined 150.00 and 3 points... I received ILR August 2010. Would have been able to apply for Naturalization August 2011.

I haven't applied for Naturalization as I am thinking I might waste the money due to 5 years unspent rules. I have considered the fact that there are guidelines that suggests if there is only one conviction and ALL other is fine, then the casework can use their discretion. A solicitor said that he would apply on my behalf as he thinks I have a good chance.

Still haven't decided what I will do. I have applied for a Enhanced Criminal Disclosure to see whats on it.

Any ideas??
LC20 is a minor offence which can be disregarded by case worker and I am sure it won't show on your Enhanced Criminal Disclosure either, I will definately go for Naturalisation application if I was you specially with all the changes they r bringing in, who knows what the rules will be after 3 years :shock:

1273
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Location: LONDON

Post by 1273 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:44 am

Thanks. Do you think the NCS will accept my application? Or should I send it by post or through a solicitor?

Also I have a child who would apply with me for Registration. Should I do both at the same time or wait to see the outcome for my application first?
WOW

friend12345
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Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:39 am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Post by friend12345 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:24 am

1273 wrote:Thanks. Do you think the NCS will accept my application? Or should I send it by post or through a solicitor?

Also I have a child who would apply with me for Registration. Should I do both at the same time or wait to see the outcome for my application first?
NCS refused to take my application because of the offence, I applied by post and gost approval in 2 months 10 days.

Good Luck

fearless2711
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Friend12345 :Did you declare in your application

Post by fearless2711 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:38 am

friend12345 wrote:
1273 wrote:Thanks. Do you think the NCS will accept my application? Or should I send it by post or through a solicitor?

Also I have a child who would apply with me for Registration. Should I do both at the same time or wait to see the outcome for my application first?
NCS refused to take my application because of the offence, I applied by post and gost approval in 2 months 10 days.

Good Luck
Friend12345 : Did you declared offence on the application form.

friend12345
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Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: Friend12345 :Did you declare in your application

Post by friend12345 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:50 am

fearless2711 wrote:
friend12345 wrote:
1273 wrote:Thanks. Do you think the NCS will accept my application? Or should I send it by post or through a solicitor?

Also I have a child who would apply with me for Registration. Should I do both at the same time or wait to see the outcome for my application first?
NCS refused to take my application because of the offence, I applied by post and gost approval in 2 months 10 days.

Good Luck
Friend12345 : Did you declared offence on the application form.
Yes I did
Good things come to those who wait.

rajesh2012
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Post by rajesh2012 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:53 pm

friend12345
please read pm and advice me

thanks

Gyfrinachgar
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Location: Wales

Post by Gyfrinachgar » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:24 am

@Admins and Mods: These and similar questions pop up in regular intervals, and this particular thread has already generated over 5600 views (a value normally only reached by the clubs) - so there is a considerable interest in this topic. Therefore, I thought it might be useful if you would add an entry for traffic offences in the FAQs. To make it easier, I got started on a few points I think are relevant, please feel free to expand/correct/comment everybody.

Can I take advantage of the fixed penalty (FPN) system?
(a) for offences commited before April 2009:
Non-EEA driving licence: no, has to be settled in court
EEA driving licences without counterpart registration: no, has to be settled in court
EEA driving licences with counterpart registration: yes

(b) for offences commited after April 2009:
EEA driving licences: yes, following overhaul of Road Safety Act 2006 and Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 implementing Council Directive No. 91/439/EEC and EC (Recognition of Driving Licences of other Member States) Regulations 2008. See also according note in the form D9.
Non-EEA driving licence: if I read the current revision of RTOA'88 correctly, may take advantage of the FPN scheme if they have registered a counterpart. This is only relevant for the first year, anyway (see below).

How long will my licence be valid?
non-EEA: 1 year after taking residence (i.e. excluding short term visits like holidays), then it must be exchanged or it will be a traffic offence
EEA: until you are 70 years old or for 3 years after becoming resident (whichever is the longer period) and as long as the licence is valid
Generally, a licence holder is allowed to drive anything the foreign licence allows, with one major exception: in no case (even if the foreign licence allows it) may a driver use a vehicle below the legal age in the UK (i.e. 17 years for cars).

How many points will I get, how long will they be on the licence?
see DirectGov website for complete list

What are minor/major traffic offences?
The HO takes a hard stance on certain offences considered reckless: "Drink-driving offences, driving while uninsured or disqualified or driving whilst using a mobile phone are not minor offences" (Booklet AN; page 15). Likewise, dangerous driving, furious driving, aggravated taking of a vehicle and similar offences will not go down well with the caseworkers. Such offences will adversely affect your good character requirement. However, speeding (within reason!), driving with a foreign licence and other offences that are more a harmless oversight than reckless endangerment will not normally be considered major offences. Those will normally be disregarded by HO - except there are too many of them - a large number of minor offences will let HO doubt your good character as well (as it could suggest "a pattern of offending").

Will traffic offences affect my application?
one or two minor offences/FPN: normally not
multiple minor offences: getting trickier, and everything else should be in order
one FPN in the last year: normally not
two FPNs in the last year: wait a year
major unspent offences in the qualifying period: wait until spent
any driving bans: wait until the period of disqualification has ended

What if I go to court over a minor offence / FPN?
If an FPN has been referred to a court due to the non-payment of the fine or if the notice has been challenged by the applicant and subsequently upheld by the court, then this is treated as a conviction by HO (instructions manual 3.2.3). In other words: refusing to play ball over an FPN is a considerable gamble if you plan to apply for BC. However, note that this does not apply to cases of foreign driving licence holders who have to go to court because their cases cannot be handled directly by the police under the FPN scheme.

makkan00
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Post by makkan00 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:54 am

Thanks Gyfrinachgar.


Here is food for thought.

A case where Applicant has been involved in an accident and police referred it to the court under 'careless driving offence'.

Applicant pleaded guilty and took points on the license for 'careless driving' and paid the fine on first hearing.


Where does this offence stand?

Due to the nature of the accident, police had to refer it to the court and outcome was points + fine.


Now can this applicant apply for permanent residency and BC?

Gyfrinachgar
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Location: Wales

Post by Gyfrinachgar » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:11 am

It is definitely a conviction and will adversely affect both application types. I think that this would fall in the grey area of caseworker's discretion - if everything else is in order, it should not automatically be prohibitive. The central passage relating to this question is: "Caseworkers should normally refuse an individual who has an unspent conviction, however there is discretion to overlook some minor one-off offences. (...) Where the applicant is of good character in all other respects caseworkers should normally be prepared to overlook a single minor unspent conviction resulting in: (...) a relatively small fine or compensation order."

It is anyone's guess what "relative" means here exactly. In such a situation I would definitely try PR, but depending on (a) the details of the conviction/fine, (b) the urgency of naturalisation and (c) the time until conviction becomes spent, I might postpone a costly BC application.

makkan00
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Post by makkan00 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:30 pm

Gyfrinachgar wrote:It is definitely a conviction and will adversely affect both application types. I think that this would fall in the grey area of caseworker's discretion - if everything else is in order, it should not automatically be prohibitive. The central passage relating to this question is: "Caseworkers should normally refuse an individual who has an unspent conviction, however there is discretion to overlook some minor one-off offences. (...) Where the applicant is of good character in all other respects caseworkers should normally be prepared to overlook a single minor unspent conviction resulting in: (...) a relatively small fine or compensation order."

It is anyone's guess what "relative" means here exactly. In such a situation I would definitely try PR, but depending on (a) the details of the conviction/fine, (b) the urgency of naturalisation and (c) the time until conviction becomes spent, I might postpone a costly BC application.
Top Man! Many thanks.

songo
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Drink Driving Cases and BC application

Post by songo » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:44 pm

Hi every one,

I am new in this forum but have been reading some of the experiences and recommendations and find the very useful.

Maybe you can help me in my case and provide some guidance on if I should b keep waiting or try the BC.

I got the ILR 2 years ago. On March 2011 I got a drink driving sentence and paid a fine at court. I am back in the road as I got my driving license back meaning that the driving ban sentence has been spent but the sentence of the fine will keep unspent.

Drink Driving offenses are a serious offense of what I have read see bellow. It is unlikely my BC application gets approved although the traffic offense has been spent.

3.2.5 Caseworkers should not normally disregard any unspent
conviction that falls into the following categories
irrespective of the severity of the sentence imposed:
a. Offences involving dishonesty (e.g. theft, fraud)
b. Offences involving violence
c. Offences involving unlawful sexual activity
d. Offences involving drugs
e. [b]Offences which would constitute “recklessness” – e.g.
drink-driving[/b], excessive speeding, driving without
tax/insurance or whilst using a mobile phone. (NB
Caseworkers should remember that fixed penalty
notices do not constitute offenses – see 3.2.2.e
above).

Does any body in this forum of any body tried to apply in similar case and been successful?

Does any body know further what is going on with the LAPSO as law may change the rehabilitation period criteria for fines to one year and there is much uncertainty on what UKBA is going to apply.

Truly appreciate a recommendation.

If you make an application under this circumstances is there any risk also on the ILR?

Gyfrinachgar
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Location: Wales

Post by Gyfrinachgar » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:51 pm

With an unspent court convition for drink-driving, your chances of successfully applying for BC are slim to naught. So far, I have not heard of anyone pulling that off, and I would be very surprised to hear otherwise. As long as you cannot provide a REALLY good explanation on page 10, you will have to wait until the conviction becomes spent, i.e. until March 2016. Discretion is not easily granted for something like drink-driving, and with very good reason. Your IRL will not be affected, though.

Regarding the effects of LASPO 2012, there is an outstanding request under the Freedom of Information Act. Dated 16 August 2012, it has not yet been processed by HO. I would recommend you keep an eye on that - I certainly will. Very interesting request. I doubt that the effects will be retroactive, and I doubt that they change HO's SOPs (at least in the short term), so LASPO 2012 most likely will not help you in any way.

songo
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Post by songo » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:47 pm

Many thanks for your quick answer Gyfrinachgar.

So far that has been my understanding and it has been the way how I have been handling my case in the long term of 5 years.

LAPSO just gives a little light in the tunnel. I will follow the link you provided and await LAPSO commencement and what ever UKBA decides, positive or not to my case. Life goes on.

My family has just got the BC this week so that is a success.

Hope is the last thing one should loose, things may change you never know.

Cheers mate.

Please keep me posted if you have news in the subject

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