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Is Ireland Such a Great Place (RANT)

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

cartaverde
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Post by cartaverde » Thu May 24, 2007 10:29 am

.. which doesn't have always a good job situation.
I've applied to a bunch of jobs at 'my' country but I don't ever get even an acknowledgment that they have received the application. Packing everything up and moving there with no jobs and no ties isn't going to be fun or cheap, but at least then I could have some chances in getting a job there.
He can return to his country anytime he wants (and hopefully get back). Thanks to USCIS misinformation, I can't... so I'm stuck in Europe for up to a year or longer, where an earth to go? Maybe I should just pack up everything, ship everything to US and then move with one backpack to UK until I can live anywhere with him.


-- actually : maybe we should FINALLY start to organize some EU1 support groups?? At least Cork and Dublin would have enough people ...
"Waiting for namecheck" since 2007.

Birdy
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Post by Birdy » Thu May 24, 2007 10:41 am

PM for you. Cartaverde
Happy now in the U.K. not so happy about the Rugby

cartaverde
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Post by cartaverde » Sat May 26, 2007 12:00 am

Ha. I guess I should not be surprised to see what the politicians are up to here.
Fionna Fail finds it important to educate the unborn Irish. (As long as they will be born to Irish parents)
"Waiting for namecheck" since 2007.

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:43 pm

i know many of you fine people are frustrated with the actions of the doj, and rightly so. although this is no excuse, immigration and the rate it has reached in this country is unprecedent. i know you dont want to hear this but to the department this is a new thing. i know from a professional basis that dealing with doj is like pulling teeth out with a plyer. even the solicitors cant get one on one contact with the dept on clients behalf. we are expected to book an appointment (prob wait 3 months) just to take 5 mins to bring our clients case to their attention.

the major problem lies in the understaffed, bad facilites and structure. look how long for instance it took the refugee act 1996 to come into effect (2000).

the dept finally got their act together by making a separate site for immigration issues. funny how these things are done near elections. it time for bodies supporting immigration issues and lawyers to demand a separate ministry for immigration issues.

as a national, i assure you, immigration is not the only area where all civil servants and governments have been late dealing with. we irish are not as prompt putting eu directives into effect, check out many eu case law.

you all know that this "need to live in another eu country" is purely a policy issue and not law. it appears the minister is of the fear that many non eu nationals try to marry "on the rush" ie shame marriages in order to avoid the regular immigration proceedures. unfortunatley it appears to be the fear for failed asylum seekers or people who have been informed that deportation orders are being drafted. i feel sorry for the majority of people like yourselves. just hang in there.

one should note article 8 of european convention on human rihts which prohibits state interference ( a right to a persons family and private life) however article 8.2 provides certain derrogations eg public policy, security etc. many eu case law show that the eu and its convention cant prevent a state from having some discretion in their immigration policies. (reasons set out in 8.2) however the persons intersts must not overweigh the states interests.

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:48 pm

cartaverde wrote:Ha. I guess I should not be surprised to see what the politicians are up to here.
Fionna Fail finds it important to educate the unborn Irish. (As long as they will be born to Irish parents)
fianna fail mate.

the irish born issue?. name 5 countries whom allow automatic citizenship to the parents of a non national. compare the irish requirement to say the usa, baltic countries, portugal (many requiring one to speak their national language, learn the constitution and natioanl anthem)

any of ye lot ever consider that making lewd references about the potatoe and the irish is actually pretty damn dearly beloved considering the history of this country!

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:54 pm

I dont recall any lewd references to potatoes and the Irish on this site...is it a sensitive issue for you? BTW,either you should look up the definition of the word 'lewd' or you need to stop spending so much time at the pub.

Flor_mz
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Post by Flor_mz » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:16 pm

All children born in the USA are Americans.
I'm not too crazy about the US and their policies, but apart from other immigration laws they may have (however strict), ANY child born on American territory has full Amerinca citizenship rights, that's a fact.

cartaverde
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Post by cartaverde » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:16 am

Also any child born in Italy is Italian.
Any child born in USA gets US citizenship, and so on.

The negative answers they have given for EU1 applications have surely been only for these sham marriages. Like when you have been living in Ireland for past 6 years and married for all that time (how exactly were you then supposed to move out of Ireland when you were already living here after you got married to be later to be able to stay here?), now it's suddenly a sham. Or when the Americans get a no because they hurry to marry the unsuspecting British and so on.

I don't care what excuses they use for this, walrus. Suddenly too many immigrants and too few resources? I wonder why we pay taxes then .. if I can't get a single thing out of the tax money, at least I'd like to get my salary tax free and in full. Too many Africans that are marrying the Polish to be able to stay in Europe and Ireland? That was what the people stamping passports at Dublin airport were suggesting, with those terms. :twisted:
"Waiting for namecheck" since 2007.

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:29 am

cartaverde wrote:Also any child born in Italy is Italian.
That is not true, sorry.

brownbonno
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Post by brownbonno » Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:14 am

walrusgumble wrote:i

you all know that this "need to live in another eu country" is purely a policy issue and not law. it appears the minister is of the fear that many non eu nationals try to marry "on the rush" ie shame marriages in order to avoid the regular immigration proceedures. unfortunatley it appears to be the fear for failed asylum seekers or people who have been informed that deportation orders are being drafted. i feel sorry for the majority of people like yourselves. just hang in there.

one should note article 8 of european convention on human rihts which prohibits state interference ( a right to a persons family and private life) however article 8.2 provides certain derrogations eg public policy, security etc. many eu case law show that the eu and its convention cant prevent a state from having some discretion in their immigration policies. (reasons set out in 8.2) however the persons intersts must not overweigh the states interests.
This analysis is to low from a Legal executive!!!!!
Do you ever imagine, among this lots came into the Republic with a D-Visa as spouse of an EU citizen,some came into the country with entry visa issued at point of entry.Yet they are been fustrated with the clause of ''live in another member state''.Where their intention was clearly made known when applying for such an entry visa.The system should be ashame for not having a mechanism to detect sham marriages.
Regarding the Article,here is the full text open to the forum for interpretation.
ARTICLE 8
1.Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2.There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others
Knowledge is Power

runie80
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Post by runie80 » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:36 am

Exactly brownbonno

There is no excuse for the bullshit DOJ is giving to the people.
Its just plain Arrogance in the face of all EU treaties and all human rights conventions they signed up for.

All these ministers give MILE long speeches about Africa powerty eradication and igonre how many people are being forced into that direction because of their Inability to differenciate right from the wrong

If DOJ has been puzzelled by fake Marriages. I suggest cosidering checking all papers or may be taking interviews before deciding. But creating another stupid law its just plain stupidity. Everyone who is spouce of EU citizen and is a genuine case should be given the residence its our right.

How many families are gona be destroyed because of this stupidity ?

brownbonno
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Post by brownbonno » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:49 am

walrusgumble,
Please defend your stand and explain how the Article 8.2 can be justified in this blatant breach of the rights of the EU citizen living in ireland and the wrongful transposition of the EU directive.
Your expert opinion here gives a clear indication the quality of services within the Ireland civil services.
Knowledge is Power

runie80
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Post by runie80 » Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:11 am

I think the whole bloddy system is upside Down on its head

they have forgot the old saying "Innocent until proven guilty"

and have brought out a more foolish system "Guilty until you prove your self innocent"

My personal opinion is that they are just making it sooo messy and complicated that people just give up !

Which i know few of the fellow members have done as Living here is NOT FREE. So not everyone has the stemina and money to stay in this limbo.

Most of the Immigrants are Educated and want to work here and pay taxes.
for me I personally have paid tax Since last 6 years and have not claimed 1 cent from the social benifit. And i am sure there are loads of others like me who have worked here and dont intend to be a burden on state.

Birdy
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Post by Birdy » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:38 am

walrusgumble wrote:
you all know that this "need to live in another eu country" is purely a policy issue and not law. it appears the minister is of the fear that many non eu nationals try to marry "on the rush" ie shame marriages in order to avoid the regular immigration proceedures. unfortunatley it appears to be the fear for failed asylum seekers or people who have been informed that deportation orders are being drafted. i feel sorry for the majority of people like yourselves. just hang in there.

one should note article 8 of european convention on human rihts which prohibits state interference ( a right to a persons family and private life) however article 8.2 provides certain derrogations eg public policy, security etc. many eu case law show that the eu and its convention cant prevent a state from having some discretion in their immigration policies. (reasons set out in 8.2) however the persons intersts must not overweigh the states interests.
That is very Easy for a national to say but unfortunately most of us are already at our wits end or nearing the end of our wit wether or not it is a Policy issue or not doesnt mean a Damn to me its a policy that is ruining peoples lives and desire to live in your beautiful country, I sincerely hope you never have to go through half of what most of us have had to with the Department of Injustice Inequality and Law bending.
Happy now in the U.K. not so happy about the Rugby

runie80
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Post by runie80 » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:48 am

Well said Birdy

You have hit the nail on its head.

Spot on. My wife cried yesterday when i told her that we might have to move to another country.Does this Irish Lawyer has any idea how it feels to see tears in the eyes of your wife ? The problems this DOJ has created in my life are huge.

Why they dont bloddy understand that its peoples lives they are playing with.
and these are Mostly decent people who want their right which is promised to them by the EU constitution they signed up for.

I hope the decsion goes in out favour and we can lay this all rubbish to rest and move forward with our lives.

Birdy
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Post by Birdy » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:53 am

Unfortunately as Walrus said it is policy and in our situation we are just numbers and names on pieces of paper they cannot understand or deal with us in a manner that is personal.

As for the dearly beloved nature of Potatoes im not sure but i can tell you this at least once a week i have some kind of dearly beloved comment from Irish nationals in reference to me English.

http://www.cooks.com/rec/ch/potatoes.html
Happy now in the U.K. not so happy about the Rugby

Static
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Post by Static » Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:59 am

Birdy wrote:Unfortunately as Walrus said it is policy and in our situation we are just numbers and names on pieces of paper they cannot understand or deal with us in a manner that is personal.

As for the dearly beloved nature of Potatoes im not sure but i can tell you this at least once a week i have some kind of dearly beloved comment from Irish nationals in reference to me English.

http://www.cooks.com/rec/ch/potatoes.html
those are great Birdy... :) the recipes, thanks.

runie80
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Post by runie80 » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:04 pm

Birdy there are all sorts of people in all sorts of places.

Any decent Educated and well manered Irish person will understand our situation.

The fact is that anywhere in the world people like these exist.


Ireland is the same Tallaght and ballymun and all other areas like these are just full of people who are dearly beloved.

I have met loads of Irish people and i have to say not everyone is the same.But i know 100% what you mean there are those who just would like to make a negative point about anything

when i see them i think "IF all of them would be Civilized and hard working we wouldnt have any place in this country " You need people like these which dont work to make place for us foreigners to achieve things

as they say "the best way to concieve a fool is to let him have his way"

If you know what i mean :)

Platinum
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Post by Platinum » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:06 pm

Well, I, for one, agree with much of what walrusgrumble says. I mean, we all know this sort of stuff is true of Ireland and its public services:
the major problem lies in the understaffed, bad facilites and structure. look how long for instance it took the refugee act 1996 to come into effect (2000).

the dept finally got their act together by making a separate site for immigration issues. funny how these things are done near elections. it time for bodies supporting immigration issues and lawyers to demand a separate ministry for immigration issues.

as a national, i assure you, immigration is not the only area where all civil servants and governments have been late dealing with. we irish are not as prompt putting eu directives into effect, check out many eu case law.
And, yes, he is telling us just to told on and wait, which, obviously, most of us don't want to hear. And yet, what are we doing at the moment? Holding on and waiting.

As for countries with more open immigration policies: the US is notorious for being one of the very few developed nations with the policy of "any child born on American soil is American". Other first world countries have much more strict rules for citizenship. Let's also not forget that when the new countries joined the EU a couple of years ago, Ireland was among one of the few countries who allowed citizens of the new members in without restrictions. I fully believe this EU1 idiocy isn't an Irish immigration policy issue, but one of incompetence in the Justice Dept. Someone read Directive 2004/38/EC and thought, hey, wait, sham marriages! And put in a stupid rule about living in another EU state without really thinking about the problem first. And now we're paying for this idiot's decision.

I agree walrusgrumble probably does not understand exactly how frustrating and heartbreaking it is to have his life f*cked up like this, by a totally impersonal and un-understanding brick wall of a justice department. Really, the only way to fight this is to dig in, find lots of money, and hire lawyers. I would probably want to hire a lawyer with more of a get-out-and-fight attitude than walrusgrumble seems to have, but I'm sure if any of us called 'round different lawyers offices, many would tell us exactly the same thing: hold on and wait for the court case.

runie80
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Post by runie80 » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:07 pm


Hmmm lovely

Now i know what i am cooking until the Department of IN justice sorts us out :)

runie80
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Post by runie80 » Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:25 pm

Platinum
Let's also not forget that when the new countries joined the EU a couple of years ago, Ireland was among one of the few countries who allowed citizens of the new members in without restrictions.

If you think that they Invited all New EU after joining to help them then you are seriously mistaken my friend.

Get your facts right.Ireland economy was booming and there were no workers to work in construction or to work in low paid jobs.
For that they need workers and they turned to eastren europe by welcoming them

The truth is the national intrest of any economy in the world is most important thing. If they wanted to help why they are now stopping Bilgarians and Romanians ? the reason is they dont need more workers.

Its all bullshit if anyone says Ireland want to help eastren europeans.
If the eastren europeeans didnt fill the "Gap" the economy would have suffered BIG style !

See all the hard working labour in this country 40% of alll low paid job s are being done by immigrants. So dont tell me Ireland did a favour !

Both were suffering Ireland needed manpower and didnt had the people to sustain the ecnomic boom !

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:08 pm

right, alot of ye think i am attacking your stance. christ i am not. is the doj incompent? yes. useless, and a disgrace. spouses of eu nationals deserve better.

the crap reality is that the dept have major problems, some stated above.and ye are right these excuses are not good enough. i posted this originally to say, not to give up. and ye all know this country would probably still be in the backwater of the eu with the cap out looking begging for donations if it was not for the many people from all over the world who came to this country to work.

keep hassling the all those town and city councillors who knocked on some of yer doors seeking votes in the local elections 2 or 3 years ago. speak to the local td, get them hassling the dept on yer behalf. best of luck with the high court decision.

i am not born irish by the way, just by my irish parents.

Birdy
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Post by Birdy » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:16 pm

DUPLICATE POST DELETED
Last edited by Birdy on Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Happy now in the U.K. not so happy about the Rugby

Birdy
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Post by Birdy » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:17 pm

I certainly dont think you are attackin gour Stance and numerous members of this forum have attempted to utilise the pre election TD's PD's and the other ones. They all say oh that is interesting vote for us and we will look into it. or we will look at that after the election and even when you push them they are not interested.

We collectively have been waiting from between six months and nine months plus. We know we have to wait but try waiting that long?

Were in Ireland are you Walrus?
Happy now in the U.K. not so happy about the Rugby

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:26 pm

Do you ever imagine, among this lots came into the Republic with a D-Visa as spouse of an EU citizen,some came into the country with entry visa issued at point of entry.Yet they are been fustrated with the clause of ''live in another member state''.Where their intention was clearly made known when applying for such an entry visa.The system should be ashame for not having a mechanism to detect sham marriages.
Regarding the Article,here is the full text open to the forum for interpretation.
ARTICLE 8
1.Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2.There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others
[/quote]

i agree completely with you. and as for the shame marriages guff, the residence and immigration bill, proposes that non nationals may have to inform within 3 months, the dept of their intentions to marry in this state. interference to ones right to family and private life? yes, that surely wont be allowed to come into law.

as for article 8.2 see the word "except"... "economic well being of the country". look at the hassle a romanian, who is a an eu citizen has, getting a work permit. why? the government has an attitude of ensuring jobs etc for their own nationals. infringement to eu law? wont know until someone challenges it. (i am sure you have been here long enough to realise that this state is great for taking eu money but not great for giving back)

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