Immigrants should learn how to queue

Yeah, it's a funny subject heading, but it's a serious issue. Found this from the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6749363.stm

I won't post the whole thing, but I wanted to highlight one thing:

Measures urged on migrant 'fears'
Fears that mass immigration is unsettling some communities in Britain mean local authorities should identify potential hot-spots, a report says.
The Commission on Integration and Cohesion suggests ministers consider ways of handling potential problems.

These include cultural briefing packs and specialist integration teams to tackle fears over migrants.
...
"The packs might say that we like to queue at the Post Office and the bus stop and we don't really like spitting in the street," said a spokesman.
...
"Things like that sound very simple but can drive members of the settled community barmy - when it might be that new arrivals just don't know about things like that."

Riiight...so immigrants push in the queue and spit everywhere, which is why respect, values and morals have gone out the window? How stupid. Even moreso is the fact that this winds people up to the extent that they are upset at the mere presence of an immigrant. Or maybe it's stupid to think you can spot an immigrant by the way s/he pushes in front of you to get on the bus???

No, even MORE stupid is the fact that they think immigrants CAN'T wait in a queue, and don't know the 'hidden cultural norms' of Britishness. That aside, I do agree with these packs, but not necessarily 'integration' packs, but more like the Life in the UK book - general knowledge about the UK, but maybe with half the book focussing on the specific region that the immigrant lives.

But, exactly who would these 'specialist integration teams' be? OH! The POlice of course! Or immigration 'assistants' that work on the street, giving help to newcomers, and checking their ID cards whilst offering 'assistance'?

I think the idea of promoting understanding of behaviour which is not acceptable under UK societal norms entirely reasonable. When I travel I go out of my way to ensure I have at least a basic understanding of the differences between my culture and the one I am visiting. Then I can decide what you want to adhere to and what you don't.

I would think most migrants would welcome a better understanding of the the UK. Moving to a new a country is daunting at the best of times, and most people don't want to stand out or feel out of place more than necessary.

Seems like a good idea to me. The problem as you say arises when it is assessed or policed. Not necessary.

Jon_H wrote:I think the idea of promoting understanding of behaviour which is not acceptable under UK societal norms entirely reasonable. When I travel I go out of my way to ensure I have at least a basic understanding of the differences between my culture and the one I am visiting. Then I can decide what you want to adhere to and what you don't.

I would think most migrants would welcome a better understanding of the the UK. Moving to a new a country is daunting at the best of times, and most people don't want to stand out or feel out of place more than necessary.

Seems like a good idea to me. The problem as you say arises when it is assessed or policed. Not necessary.

Oh, I totally agree with you- it is good to provide information for new arrivals. Which is why I wrote that I agreed with the packs. Like the packs you give to new mothers. But the questions I'm asking relates to the writing in bold. I mean, I would have thought there would be better pieces of information to provide than 'don't spit on the ground because it annoys peope' (and I see all types of people doing this), or 'join the queue' as if immigrants are a bunch of uncouth, uneducated louts or what have you. Maybe more on parking information, environmental care (throw away rubbish - believe me, most Brits don't do this well), how to use social services for specific issues...hopefully they won't add the bold type into the packs!

As I mentioned, general information about the UK + one's local area is welcome, but the question remains what should be added?

In Asia, people spit all the time on the street. They believe this keeps them healthy, even though it does the opposite.
Second, lines arent the norm in all locations so I wouldn't find a sign telling them to queue up offensive.
In France, it is a national pasttime to cut the queue so maybe they know there is queue, I know I can't get over how many queues there are in the UK.

SYH wrote:I know I can't get over how many queues there are in the UK.

Yeah, too many people, too little space

SYH wrote:In Asia, people spit all the time on the street. They believe this keeps them healthy, even though it does the opposite.
Second, lines arent the norm in all locations so I wouldn't find a sign telling them to queue up offensive.
In France, it is a national pasttime to cut the queue so maybe they know there is queue, I know I can't get over how many queues there are in the UK.

Boy, so it's ok to write such things? I know people in parts of Asia spit, but would these people become your everyday immigrant?
Actually, in London people don't queue at the bus stops, so it isn't common everywhere. If you are meant to queue, there would be a barrier set up.

I have seen enough and more English spitting on the roads...surprisingly teenagers. And the way they put their shoe clad feet on bus and train seats horrifies me and I am from Asia...

As for littering, sometimes I wish I were back home as at least one could turn around and berate someone who is deliberately littering public space. I find myself unable to do that with the youngsters here. I may not have been given integration classes but I do know that even the English do not grapple with teenagers here !

To be honest, I think the native British are the worst offenders when it comes to spitting in the street!!!!

I've often been working in the City in London and seen pinned-striped businessmen who should know better spitting in the street. And don't even get me started on yobs and chavs.

Dawie wrote:To be honest, I think the native British are the worst offenders when it comes to spitting in the street!!!!

I've often been working in the City in London and seen pinned-striped businessmen who should know better spitting in the street. And don't even get me started on yobs and chavs.

Are you using facial epithets? or less unkind words to describe certain ethnic groups?

If you think that the terms "yob" and "chav" refer to a particular race or ethnic group then you obviously haven't been living in the UK for very long!

In fact yobs and chavs can be and are from all facial and ethnic groups in the UK.

Dawie wrote:If you think that the terms "yob" and "chav" refer to a particular race or ethnic group then you obviously haven't been living in the UK for very long!

In fact yobs and chavs can be and are from all facial and ethnic groups in the UK.

What is your problem? Can you answer the question without having to make a backhanded comment on my knowledge of the UK.
I just don't find the words you have used very complimentary. And to be sure about its usage, I asked you a question.
Oh by the way, I passed the knowledge of the UK test and that is the only objective measure I am concerned about.

Oh by the way, I passed the knowledge of the UK test and that is the only objective measure I am concerned about.

Really?

Oh by the way, I passed the knowledge of the UK test and that is the only objective measure I am concerned about.

Let me get this straight...you've been in the UK long enough to have passed the knowledge of life in the UK test and you still don't know what a yob or a chav is?

Dawie wrote:

Oh by the way, I passed the knowledge of the UK test and that is the only objective measure I am concerned about.

Let me get this straight...you've been in the UK long enough to have passed the knowledge of life in the UK test and you still don't know what a yob or a chav is?

Sorry Dawie, you are just being a jerk.

SYH wrote:

Dawie wrote:

Oh by the way, I passed the knowledge of the UK test and that is the only objective measure I am concerned about.

Let me get this straight...you've been in the UK long enough to have passed the knowledge of life in the UK test and you still don't know what a yob or a chav is?

Sorry Dawie, you are just being a jerk.

Lighten up, it's just a discussion forum...

Dawie wrote:To be honest, I think the native British are the worst offenders when it comes to spitting in the street!!!! And don't even get me started on yobs and chavs.

I agree. Immigrants and tourists wouldn't dare do the spitting and pushing some of the native born riff-raff do. Of course, this is probably true in most countries.

Last night, I went out to the big screen opera of Mozart's Don Giovanni, and you wouldn't believe how many scallies walked by making fun of the opera and making rude comments/noises at the audience (Some of them even attacked the temporary seating stand, as if they were trying to damage it or knock it over). Fortunately, there were security guards at the event to chase after them.

SYH,
Your tone does'nt really warrant an answer, non the less as a South African the subject of beloved cuts deep.

You are been childish and unfair towards Dawie, who was in no way been dearly beloved by talking about Chav & yobs.

I too am suprised that you have passed your UK test and still appear not to know that yobs and chavs are not of one particular race or creed.

Please think very carefully before calling someone a dearly beloved now or in the future!

Siggi wrote:SYH,
Your tone does'nt really warrant an answer, non the less as a South African the subject of beloved cuts deep.

You are been childish and unfair towards Dawie, who was in no way been dearly beloved by talking about Chav & yobs.

I too am suprised that you have passed your UK test and still appear not to know that yobs and chavs are not of one particular race or creed.

Please think very carefully before calling someone a dearly beloved now or in the future!

Siggi I didn't call him a dearly beloved and if you and he are thinking that was implied then that is just your guilty conscience. I asked my UK colleagues and they agree these terms are not considered necessarily polite.
And it is irrelevant that you are surprised, it certainly was not a topic in the exam book. And the terms are certainly not ones that would prove any one's understanding of a culture.

SYH,
I will not drawn into your childish banter, you tried to imply the race issue, with Dawie.

In terms of conscience, I told before beloved is a very sensitive issue and unless you have ever lived under apartheid, you would'nt begin to unstand.

So just be more sensitive to the issue.

Get over yourself Siggi, you think unless I lived in Africa I haven't experienced beloved. You guys decided to construe my comments that I was calling him a dearly beloved. Your problem

SYH wrote:

Siggi wrote:SYH,
Your tone does'nt really warrant an answer, non the less as a South African the subject of beloved cuts deep.

You are been childish and unfair towards Dawie, who was in no way been dearly beloved by talking about Chav & yobs.

I too am suprised that you have passed your UK test and still appear not to know that yobs and chavs are not of one particular race or creed.

Please think very carefully before calling someone a dearly beloved now or in the future!

Siggi I didn't call him a dearly beloved and if you and he are thinking that was implied then that is just your guilty conscience. I asked my UK colleagues and they agree these terms are not considered necessarily polite.
And it is irrelevant that you are surprised, it certainly was not a topic in the exam book. And the terms are certainly not ones that would prove any one's understanding of a culture.

All that you have proved by passing the Life in the UK test is that you understand British culture as the British government sees it.

But by not knowing the meaning of the terms "yob" and "chav" you have shown that you have no understanding of popular culture (pop culture) which is perhaps a more important part of British life.

Exactly popular culture is just that, a fad, it isn't the backbone of what being British is and thus you had no business making your snide remark that you are surprised that I passed the test.
This remind me of the time when I was playig Pictionary with my friends who were outraged that I didn't know much trivia because I have graduated from an Ivy League College. You can still be bright but not know aspects of pop culture. Just like I am sure not every English person knows the ins and out of being Scottish. You guys ganging up on me for not knowing these weird words is deplorable.

Ahem....

Moving slightly on. Yob and chav are very common words which describe parts of the British community, but are not generally words you would call people, or yourself (too much class-based politics). So, they are pejorative, to describe certain types of people.

Dictionary (from answers.com):

Yob: A rowdy, aggressive, or violent young man
Chav: Chav or Charv/Charver is a mainly derogatory slang term in the United Kingdom for a subcultural stereotype fixated on fashions such as gold jewellery and 'designer' clothing. They are generally considered to have no respect for society, and be ignorant or unintelligent. The term appeared in mainstream dictionaries in 2005.

Yobs are your usual football loving AND agressive type. Chav, whilst not necessarily being as dangerous as a yob, tends to be used to describe (mostly) working class folk with little or no education who hardly speak English (although it is their mother-tongue) and such and such. They replaced the Essex boys and girls. But these words are not weird, but for sure not everyone would have heard them. Yobs have existed since Victorian times, maybe earlier. Chavs are new but there has always been something akin to chav to describe these groups of people. They come from all ethnic groups; for example teen mother syndrome, or ASBOs, are common amongst the chav group. But do not worry, you cannot catch the "chav syndrome" easily, but it can be passed down to unsuspecting generations through extremely close contact .

To be honest I think Dawie was just kidding with his reply. But, not everyone knows what a chav is...but they're a sub-group like "goth".

Chav.

Moving on. I fully support an initiative in the UK to publish a guide and handbook, to conduct local culture classes, to have compulsory language classes, to test people on their sensitivity to and understanding of local customs, and whatever else it takes ... before letting native Brits go abroad.

sakura wrote:Ahem....

Moving slightly on. Yob and chav are very common words which describe parts of the British community, but are not generally words you would call people, or yourself (too much class-based politics). So, they are pejorative, to describe certain types of people.

Thanks for clearing that up and recognizing it is pejorative.