Court Convictions

Hi Experts

Need your advice here. Just went through some posts and now in distress. Let me tell you my story.

I was granted student visa in 2003 and left UK in July 2006 after completing my studies. During that stay in 2004-2005 cant remember now i was convicted in the court for driving on learner license and without insurance. I was fined £100 and 6 points on my learner license. I paid the fine on the same day.

I applied for Tier1 G in 2008 and came in UK in Feb 2009. Got Tier1 Extension in July 2012 and another extension in Mar 2013 and currently have leave on Tier1 till Mar 2016. I am eligible to apply for ILR in Feb 2014 on basis of 5 years on Tier1 G.

Now the issue is during 3 of my Tier1 applications I never mentioned conviction as I thought its not a criminal case. Now I understand that I should have disclosed this in all of my applications. The points have already being spend and I paid DVLA to remove any data on their system as 4 years have passed and they removed it in 2009. I have 2 choices now as below:

1: to disclose it in ILR application. If I disclose this than HO can reject saying why not disclosed in earlier applications hence rejection due to deception.
2: Don't disclose. I may get through. But if they found out they may reject saying deception as not disclosed.

Can someone please guide me what Line of action should I take. Is there anyone in the forum who had similar situations of not disclosing in previous applications, their LOA and outcome. Please help.

Hi Spacer

I don't think there is anything that can be done now.

You should have disclosed them but you didn't and that time is gone now. So you got to take the risk and decide yourself to mention them now and be rejected because of the fact that you didn't mention them before or just leave them as you have done in the past and hope for the best.

But just for your own satisfaction, go for a PNC report, i am not sure if that's the correct name for it but ask for all the info in police national computer and if there is no mention of that conviction, i personally would not have mentioned that convictions this time either.

So, good luck

montysingh wrote:Hi Spacer

I don't think there is anything that can be done now.

You should have disclosed them but you didn't and that time is gone now. So you got to take the risk and decide yourself to mention them now and be rejected because of the fact that you didn't mention them before or just leave them as you have done in the past and hope for the best.

But just for your own satisfaction, go for a PNC report, i am not sure if that's the correct name for it but ask for all the info in police national computer and if there is no mention of that conviction, i personally would not have mentioned that convictions this time either.

So, good luck

More distress seing your post. I made a foolish mistake of not disclosing it or being unaware of disclosing this. However I had a police certificate taken out last year. it was ACRO Police Certificate. It came all clean with statement "No data found in record".

Do you think this is enough or do i need to check further. Can you please share the link for any other checks.

Is there anyone in the forum who had similar situations of not disclosing in previous applications?

Any Guru who can give me peace of mind......

More distress seing your post. I made a foolish mistake of not disclosing it or being unaware of disclosing this. However I had a police certificate taken out last year. it was ACRO Police Certificate. It came all clean with statement "No data found in record".

Do you think this is enough or do i need to check further. Can you please share the link for any other checks.[/quote]

Hi spacer,

i think ACRO should be sufficient and i have seen some more posts here from people with same issues but i cant remember anyone came to tell their success story yet with similar conditions or unless i missed it, someone else will comment on that
I dont think there are any other checks apart from Disclosure scotland or CRB check, so can try them for satisfaction as well. But even if you go to a solicitor now, i cant imagine them giving you a 100% way out of this, unfortunately for the mistakes made in the past you have to pay for them in the future one way or another.
As far as the convictions go, they are spent now and you don't need to mention them now anyway, but if you do then the caseworker might look at previous applications and check them. If i was you i wouldn't bother mentioning them now but then again thats me..........

Thanks Monty for your suggestion.

well I am not an expert but I think after 5 years your points are removed or something like that and your conviction becomes spent but hey as I said I am not an expert and have read it somewhere here on this forum so IMHO you should be fine as it was more then 5 years ago and also your SAR(subject access report) which is a PNC check of information held about you by police was clean too so I think you should be OK.

navalaviator wrote:well I am not an expert but I think after 5 years your points are removed or something like that and your conviction becomes spent but hey as I said I am not an expert and have read it somewhere here on this forum so IMHO you should be fine as it was more then 5 years ago and also your SAR(subject access report) which is a PNC check of information held about you by police was clean too so I think you should be OK.

Thanks navalaviator. These words are encouraging. My question here is, as my conviction was 10 years back and would have already spent long time ago. Do we still need to declare spent convictions?

Amber, Vinny and other Guru's

Please suggest any thing. You have been ray of light for so many applicants on this forum. Please suggest.

spacer wrote:

navalaviator wrote:well I am not an expert but I think after 5 years your points are removed or something like that and your conviction becomes spent but hey as I said I am not an expert and have read it somewhere here on this forum so IMHO you should be fine as it was more then 5 years ago and also your SAR(subject access report) which is a PNC check of information held about you by police was clean too so I think you should be OK.

Thanks navalaviator. These words are encouraging. My question here is, as my conviction was 10 years back and would have already spent long time ago. Do we still need to declare spent convictions?

well I know for sure that for citizenship you have to declare all spent and unspent but don't really know how it works for the ILR whether you have to declare spent convictions or not.

Have you had a standard or basic Disclosure recently?if not then you should go for one to check if its on record or not.

You have little choice but to declare the conviction and hope for the best.

montysingh wrote:More distress seing your post. I made a foolish mistake of not disclosing it or being unaware of disclosing this. However I had a police certificate taken out last year. it was ACRO Police Certificate. It came all clean with statement "No data found in record".

Do you think this is enough or do i need to check further. Can you please share the link for any other checks.

Hi spacer,

i think ACRO should be sufficient and i have seen some more posts here from people with same issues but i cant remember anyone came to tell their success story yet with similar conditions or unless i missed it, someone else will comment on that
I dont think there are any other checks apart from Disclosure scotland or CRB check, so can try them for satisfaction as well. But even if you go to a solicitor now, i cant imagine them giving you a 100% way out of this, unfortunately for the mistakes made in the past you have to pay for them in the future one way or another.
As far as the convictions go, they are spent now and you don't need to mention them now anyway, but if you do then the caseworker might look at previous applications and check them. If i was you i wouldn't bother mentioning them now but then again thats me..........

You should be ok, if it's not in the PNC records, then most likely this was dealt as a fixed penalty notice (even if you went to court), rather than a conviction. My advise is disclaim it but also attach your certificate. HO will do their own checks but will find out everything is ok.

I had a similar case when I applied for my ILR and all went ok.

Good luck on your application.

Pqek if it goes to court it is a conviction not a FPN.

I had a similar case when I applied for my ILR and all went ok.

@ Pqek

1) What was your case/Offence

AND

B) have checked your PNC and it wasn't on PNC but you declare it on Application?

Or

C) Have checked your PNC it wasnt on PNC and you didn't declare it on your application?

@Amber

I agree with you if it goes to court then its more conviction than FPN, but somewhere here or elsewhere I have read it that it was court conviction but wasn't on PNC or something, not sure 100% though.

Thanks

D4109125 wrote:Pqek if it goes to court it is a conviction not a FPN.

I don't agree with you as I have seen so many cases in this forum included mine. But you seem to know better than the rest anyway...

kais wrote:

I had a similar case when I applied for my ILR and all went ok.

@ Pqek

1) What was your case/Offence SP30 dealt in court due to not having DVLA license at the time

AND

B) have checked your PNC and it wasn't on PNC but you declare it on Application?

It's not registered in PNC; I don't have any records on the PNC.
If this was a conviction then why there is no trace of it? I did declare it anyway to avoid issues and everything went well on my ILR application. I declared it again on my BC application to be consistent but the offence was 5 years ago so it will not be a problem now.

Or

C) Have checked your PNC it wasnt on PNC and you didn't declare it on your application?

@Amber

I agree with you if it goes to court then its more conviction than FPN, but somewhere here or elsewhere I have read it that it was court conviction but wasn't on PNC or something, not sure 100% though.

Thanks

My comments above in red

Thanks Pqek.

Infact my offence was IN10 , I pleaded guilty to court by post. Had 6 Points and some £240 fine in 2009. My only concern at the moment is that in the latest extension in 2012 i didn't mention it thinking that its not criminal conviction and also that these we only need to declare when apply for ILR.

Only came to know yesterday that HO will take it as deception. Cant go back and undo what already done. But I will have CRB check and will declare it in ILR application Feb 2014 anyway.

There is no need for a conviction to be on the PNC. A conviction is issued by the Court. Therefore, if you request a SAR from the court rather than the police, you should see your conviction.

D4109125 wrote:There is no need for a conviction to be on the PNC. A conviction is issued by the Court. Therefore, if you request a SAR from the court rather than the police, you should see your conviction.

If I do CRB check (Basic or Enhanced) will it cover everything? Means will it cover SAR and PNC information?

D4109125 wrote:There is no need for a conviction to be on the PNC. A conviction is issued by the Court. Therefore, if you request a SAR from the court rather than the police, you should see your conviction.

ok so does the home office request information from every court in country in order to find out if a person has a conviction or not?

you keep discouraging people for applying when they have a minor offence stating a conviction is a conviction rather than being practical and realise the home office would go to databases such as the PNC.

If the OP has done a SAR for the PNC and there is nothing there, please explain what kind of other checks the HO will do?

kais wrote:Thanks Pqek.

Infact my offence was IN10 , I pleaded guilty to court by post. Had 6 Points and some £240 fine in 2009. My only concern at the moment is that in the latest extension in 2012 i didn't mention it thinking that its not criminal conviction and also that these we only need to declare when apply for ILR.

Only came to know yesterday that HO will take it as deception. Cant go back and undo what already done. But I will have CRB check and will declare it in ILR application Feb 2014 anyway.

Deception includes several types of communications or omissions that serve to distort or omit the complete truth. Deception itself is intentionally managing verbal and/or nonverbal messages so that the message receiver will believe in a way that the message sender knows is false. Intent is critical with regard to deception. Intent differentiates between deception and an honest mistake

Whoever told you that because you didn't declare something on your prior application you will get accused of deception is actually talking nonsense.

Why do you think an honest mistake should be classed as deception. Now, if you decided not to include it on your ILR knowing all this information given on this forum, then it may be taken as deception.

Get your homework right and be careful with advice from people that make 1,000 posts in a month in this forum. That is people that have nothing else to do.

Pqek please stop making inaccurate posts that are misleading. The onus is on the applicant to declare a conviction not for the UKVI to find out about it. There is a difference between some people who have declared a conviction and being subsequently successful and those who fail to mention a conviction all together. All spent and unspent convictions should be declared as per the application form. Whether or not the offence was minor.

Bearing in mind Court of Appeal (in the case of IRACKI) which held that an applicant is not obliged to volunteer information unless he is given an indication of the kind of information which is material to the application. Thus, if you are asked to declare convictions both spent and unspent and you fail to do so, this could amount to prima facie deception. People who make many posts on this forum are not people who have nothing better to do, they are here generally, to stop incorrect and misleading information such as yours.

D4109125 wrote:Pqek please stop making inaccurate posts that are misleading. The onus is on the applicant to declare a conviction not for the UKVI to find out about it. There is a difference between some people who have declared a conviction and being subsequently successful and those who fail to mention a conviction all together. All spent and unspent convictions should be declared as per the application form. Whether or not the offence was minor.

Bearing in mind Court of Appeal (in the case of IRACKI) which held that an applicant is not obliged to volunteer information unless he is given an indication of the kind of information which is material to the application. Thus, if you are asked to declare convictions both spent and unspent and you fail to do so, this could amount to prima facie deception. People who make many posts on this forum are not people who have nothing better to do, they are here generally, to stop incorrect and misleading information such as yours.

Misleading? please show me when I have ever said it should not be declared a conviction. I have even mentioned my case when I declared it myself and was succesful. All my posts are correct, the difference is I just have around 100 posts rather than ten thousand as I prefer to just read and keep quiet on subjects I may not know.

You are clearly implying that if a conviction is not on the PNC then the Home Office cannot find out thus not to declare. This is misleading. There should be no discussion, a conviction should be declared on an ILR application. Whether previous failure to declare a conviction would amount to deception would be a matter for the Home Office to decide and applicant to refute.