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EEA national self sufficient: UKBA response

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

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askmeplz82
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Post by askmeplz82 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:10 pm

Obie wrote:UKBA will need to be showed the source of the Self-Sufficiency.

If it came from a non- EEA national without a right of residence, that may be considered illegal.

I think as long as couple have some savings before EEA national started exercising treaty right as self sufficient then Home office can't argue that savings is illegal because that saving can come NON EEA national income when EEA national was working

if an EEA national never worked in the UK before then may be but again i've seen 2 forum members recently got PR . None of their EEA family member ever worked in the UK and dependent solely on NON EEA national income now one of them applying for BC

example forum member: UKnow

http://www.immigrationboards.com/profil ... le&u=72369

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=#624803
UK Student Visa : 04/2004 - 09/2009
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nemerkh
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Post by nemerkh » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:16 pm

So are we only talking abt the PR or also EEA1/2 5 yrs thingy as well. I mean is the home office considering eea1/2s the same as prs?

askmeplz82
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Post by askmeplz82 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:19 pm

nemerkh wrote:So are we only talking abt the PR or also EEA1/2 5 yrs thingy as well. I mean is the home office considering eea1/2s the same as prs?

I think rule is same EEA2 or PR. only difference is EEA2 you need to show past 2-5 months exercise treaty right and PR past 5 years
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Universal soldier
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Post by Universal soldier » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:20 pm

This whole puzzle about self sufficiency Jambo - guru has briefed in few sentences. If eea national has some saving (any amount) then he/she will be qualified person means its non-eu family member will be legal to work & live and then if non-eu national family member works and support its eu national partner then that funds will be legal and considers.

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Post by Obie » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:22 pm

This seem to be a recent policy change. It never use to be like this.

If a non EEA national had leave to remain and applied for Residence card, showing earning he obtained working in his or her own rights, then there is no problem.

I know scores of people on the forum who succeeded previously. But this seem to bearecent policy change.

We shall see how things progress.
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Universal soldier
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Post by Universal soldier » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:28 pm

In past many people use self sufficiency route and its easy and successful. But what i examined that some balance/saving an eea national must have even relying on non-eu national funds.

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Post by Imshzd » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:11 am

In assessing whether there are “sufficient financial resources”, the
Regulations do not specify where those resources must come from, but they
must have been legally derived. So, for example, an EEA national could
rely on financial support from their non-EEA spouse or civil partner.
However, if the EEA national is solely or mainly reliant on earnings from
the UK-based employment or self-employment of their non-EEA spouse, the
non-EEA spouse must have independent permission to work or be
self-employed in the UK (for example, leave to remain under the
Immigration Rules which allows them to work). If the non-EEA national’s
only claim to be in the UK is as the family member of a self-sufficient
person, and the self-sufficient EEA national only has sufficient resources
due to the earnings of their non-EEA family member, and that family member
does not otherwise have a right to reside or leave to remain in the UK,
this would not meet the requirement.

There are 3 points to understand the above.

1:If EEA national and non EEA national are living in the UK and Non EEA national has a right to live and work under EU regulations then EEA national can rely on the income of their Non EEA national partner/spouse/father/mother/brother etc.

2:If EEA national is living with their Non EEA national(non EEA nationals status not confirmed by HO under EU regulations) then Non EEA nationals status in the UK must be legal(any points base under uk immigration laws),then this could be acceptable.

3:If EEA national is living in the uk with their non EEA national family member who's status is not confirmed by the HO under EU regulations and the said Non EEA nationals status in the country is illegal and do not have a right to reside and work,so the earning of this family member will not be considerable,hence the EEA national is not a qualified person.

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Post by toni34 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:40 am

The reply from the UKBA is wrong and deceptive,you can rely on the finances of the non eu member simple.if you have CSI,so those scenarios are a figment of her imagination,my partner acquired her eea one as a student while i was given ee2 ,since then I have been the one working while we hold CSI,she has not worked and I can prove that I pay at least 100 pounds into her account and it can still be seen that those money is spent on tesco and aldi or utility bills,if that is not sufficient then we shall meet in court.I do online transfer and I label the remits household money and it shows the account num where the money is been paid and my name.
NON EU national with RC

NotEvenHere
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Post by NotEvenHere » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:54 pm

Edited
Last edited by NotEvenHere on Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sheraz7
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Post by sheraz7 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:14 pm

There has not been any change taken place with regard to self sufficiency criteria because apart of Bulgarian/Romanian nationals the other member states nationals & family members do not even need of permission to work/live and even an EU national can enter as job seeker to become a qualified person. Moreover, either an EEA national do employment/self employment or non-EU family member do that it does not matter/necessary to become self sufficient as long as the enough funds are available for entire family. But most importantly the access of those funds must be demonstrated to EU national in the form of bank statements etc. A most recent experience about self sufficiency can be read at below where the OP (non-eu) is working to support it EEA national but refused because EEA national has no access to funds:

http://immigrationboards.com/viewtopic. ... sufficient
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nemerkh
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Post by nemerkh » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:26 pm

NotEvenHere wrote:
Imshzd wrote:In assessing whether there are “sufficient financial resources”, the
Regulations do not specify where those resources must come from, but they
must have been legally derived. So, for example, an EEA national could
rely on financial support from their non-EEA spouse or civil partner.
However, if the EEA national is solely or mainly reliant on earnings from
the UK-based employment or self-employment of their non-EEA spouse, the
non-EEA spouse must have independent permission to work or be
self-employed in the UK (for example, leave to remain under the
Immigration Rules which allows them to work). If the non-EEA national’s
only claim to be in the UK is as the family member of a self-sufficient
person, and the self-sufficient EEA national only has sufficient resources
due to the earnings of their non-EEA family member, and that family member
does not otherwise have a right to reside or leave to remain in the UK,
this would not meet the requirement.

There are 3 points to understand the above.

1:If EEA national and non EEA national are living in the UK and Non EEA national has a right to live and work under EU regulations then EEA national can rely on the income of their Non EEA national partner/spouse/father/mother/brother etc.

2:If EEA national is living with their Non EEA national(non EEA nationals status not confirmed by HO under EU regulations) then Non EEA nationals status in the UK must be legal(any points base under uk immigration laws),then this could be acceptable.

3:If EEA national is living in the uk with their non EEA national family member who's status is not confirmed by the HO under EU regulations and the said Non EEA nationals status in the country is illegal and do not have a right to reside and work,so the earning of this family member will not be considerable,hence the EEA national is not a qualified person.

You see, this is where things get muddy.

According to The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006, items 13 (1) and 13 (2), the EEA National and the EEA National Family Member have the right to reside for the initial 3 months, as long as "they don't become a burden on the social assistance system of the United Kingdom".
Initial right of residence
13.—(1) An EEA national is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom for a period not exceeding three months beginning on the date on which he is admitted to the United Kingdom provided that he holds a valid national identity card or passport issued by an EEA State.
(2) A family member of an EEA national residing in the United Kingdom under paragraph (1) who is not himself an EEA national is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom provided that he holds a valid passport.
(3) But—
(a) this regulation is subject to regulation 19(3)(b); and
(b) an EEA national or his family member who becomes an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the United Kingdom shall cease to have the right to reside under this regulation.
Please bear in mind that this is the exact phrasing and that, according to it, the EEA National and EEA Family Member don't even need to have Comprehensive Sickness Insurance, since their initial residence right would only cease if they indeed become an unreasonable burden, i.e. make extensive use of the social assistance system in the UK.

Having that in mind, if the EEA Family member starts to work during this period, the EEA Family member is acting within his/her rights of residence. The EEA National would then start to exercise Treaty Rights as self-sufficient relying on earnings from a family member, legally working on the UK.

So, on this case, the egg does indeed come before the chicken, being the egg the right of the EEA Family Member to work. All this debacle is moot if the EEA Family Member starts to work within 3 months in country.
So my wife(eu) and i have been here for 6 yrs. i have been employed from day one initially got 5 yrs eea. Pr failed as my wofes self employment was deemed as not sufficient evidence and we lost appeal. Now we are reapplying as another eea1/2 for another 5 yrs via my wifes self sufficiency on my employment via a joint bank account and csi. How will that count? Do u think we will have trouble?

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Post by nemerkh » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:28 pm

Also to mention there was a period when my RC (5yrs eea) ran out whilst sorting the PR. So i havent got an RC now

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Post by askmeplz82 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:49 pm

nemerkh wrote:Also to mention there was a period when my RC (5yrs eea) ran out whilst sorting the PR. So i havent got an RC now
You residence in the UK depend on your EEA family member so don't worry about RC expiry .
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Post by Universal soldier » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:38 pm

NotEvenHere wrote: Having that in mind, if the EEA Family member starts to work during this period, the EEA Family member is acting within his/her rights of residence. The EEA National would then start to exercise Treaty Rights as self-sufficient relying on earnings from a family member, legally working on the UK.
????????????

Which Eu legislation say that before an EEA national becoming self sufficient on the income of non-eu family member the EEA national should start to work 1st??
Because if EEA national working then why he/she need to exercise its treaty rights by self sufficiency which is two different routes of exercising treaty rights.

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Post by NotEvenHere » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:58 pm

Edited.
Last edited by NotEvenHere on Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Universal soldier
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Post by Universal soldier » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:04 pm

The following Jambo-Guru post is the best answer which unfold this dilemma. If EU national have some savings then he/she will be self sufficient and then if non-eu national work then this income/funds can make self sufficient to EEA national.
Jambo wrote:It's a chicken & egg scenario.

What the HO is saying is that you can't just be self sufficient because of the non EEA work as the non EEA national is allowed to work because you are self sufficient. So you need to have some savings (for example) for the EEA national to be self sufficient, then the non EEA can work and then it is OK to rely in that income to continue to be self sufficient.

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Post by nemerkh » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:27 pm

The dilemma is that there is mention that whether the noneu started working in uk and eu is being supported of noneu and being deemed self suff. Obviosuly i cant find another self suff explaination for this and it shoukd be like that. Again i have to say that on the eea application they ask to provide evidence if EITHER employment if the family member OR the funds that they share. Ultimately funds doesnt transcribe only in savings but also in the earnings if the noneu member that the eu shares.

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Post by neep » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:29 pm

The 'Guidance':
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... /eun/eun1/
then, seems misleading in saying:
"An EEA national can qualify as self-sufficient based on the income of their non-EEA family member."

Universal soldier
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Post by Universal soldier » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:19 pm

Another question can be here that if non-eu national is supporting its EEA national partner then which option is more better, either the funds (savings) stay in EEA national account or a regular transfer money for EEA national to EEA national account can fulfill the criteria. Does it make no difference since in both scenario the EEA national is self sufficient?

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Post by Obie » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:46 pm

Guys it looks like there are lots of confusion going on in this thread, and I believe that one needs to clarify things.

An EEA national can claim self sufficiency on the basis of their non EEA family member's income. That is perfectly normal.

The technical question is whether the income was derived from unlawful employment.

If an family member has residence card, but their EEA sponsor cease exercising treaty right, then the UKBA is saying, that notwithstanding the Validity of the card, the person did not have a lawful basis for being in the UK , as the family member was not exercising treaty rights, therefore any income derived from this , is unlawful and will not be taken into account as sufficient resource, as the income was derived from unlawful employnent.

If the non EEA national had leave to remain, which confer right to work, then he could claim self sufficiency.

There are many legal argument for and against this preposition, but that is sort of what UKBA is saying.
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Universal soldier
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Post by Universal soldier » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:00 pm

But how an EEA national ceases its treaty rights of exercise if he/she is self sufficient on the income/funds of non-eu national. For example non-eu national is working or have funds who regularly give money to EU national and EU national keep that money in its account as saving then still EU national is self sufficient and exercising its treaty rights means it non-eu national have legal basis to work. Is not it?

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Post by askmeplz82 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:05 pm

Obie wrote:Guys it looks like there are lots of confusion going on in this thread, and I believe that one needs to clarify things.

An EEA national can claim self sufficiency on the basis of their non EEA family member's income. That is perfectly normal.

The technical question is whether the income was derived from unlawful employment.

If an family member has residence card, but their EEA sponsor cease exercising treaty right, then the UKBA is saying, that notwithstanding the Validity of the card, the person did not have a lawful basis for being in the UK , as the family member was not exercising treaty rights, therefore any income derived from this , is unlawful and will not be taken into account as sufficient resource, as the income was derived from unlawful employnent.

If the non EEA national had leave to remain, which confer right to work, then he could claim self sufficiency.

There are many legal argument for and against this preposition, but that is sort of what UKBA is saying.

only way to win this argument is by showing some savings even if its £200/£300 in the EEA national or their Joint account the day for example they buy their comprehensive insurance to exercise treaty right as self sufficient
because that saving came from legal income by non eea national ( when EEA national was exercising treaty right as job seeker, worker or self employed )

Later NON EEA national can work and income will be considered legal under EU law

example:

Miss A worked from Jan 2008 - dec 2009

Mr B working from Jan 2008 - till now

Miss A left job and stay at home ; depend fully on Mr B income

Miss A and B apply for health Insurance January 2010: they already have savings from so any income NON EEA nation earn after this will be legal income according to UKBA
Last edited by askmeplz82 on Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Universal soldier » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:11 pm

My mind still stick to the 1st reply of Jambo. Becase even non-eu national is supporting its EU national either by working/having funds then if these funds stay in the account of EU national (any saving) then it clearly means that EU is a self sufficient qualified person so it non-eu family member has legal basis. And for self sufficiency there is no set amount as long as family live without benefits.

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Post by Obie » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:12 pm

Provided they dont consider that as abuse of the qualified person requirement and impose a 1 year ban under new rules coming in place in January.
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Universal soldier
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Post by Universal soldier » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:31 pm

askmeplz82 wrote: example:

Miss A worked from Jan 2008 - dec 2009

Mr B working from Jan 2008 - till now

Miss A left job and stay at home ; depend fully on Mr B income

Miss A and B apply for health Insurance January 2010: they already have savings from so any income NON EEA nation earn after this will be legal income according to UKBA
i think in this example if some balance/saving stay in EU national account even non-eu national supporting then it will work.

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