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Brexit court defeat for UK government

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

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noajthan
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by noajthan » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:26 am

secret.simon wrote:
noajthan wrote:Another win for the time-honoured separation of powers.
Very careful there, noajthan. While the concept of the separation of powers arose from Montesquieu's admiration of the British system as it was in the seventeenth century, the UK never did have a complete separation of power the way it is understood currently. Even today, many parts of the UK constitution work across "powers". Ministers are both a part of the executive and a part of the legislature. Until the 1880s, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was both a minister and a judge of the Court of Exchequer. if the Chancellorship was vacant, the Lord Chief Justice deputised as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Till as recently as 2005, the Lord Chancellor was simultaneously the seniormost judge in the country, a minister and Speaker of the Hours of Lords. So, go light on the "separation of powers" theory. (There is a delicate irony in my being a first-generation migrant who understands the UK constitution better than most people born in this country).
...
A salutary lesson indeed.
Things have evidently gone downhill since British Constitution was removed from the A-level curriculum.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by noajthan » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:11 pm

noajthan wrote:A salutary lesson indeed.
Things have evidently gone downhill since British Constitution was removed from the A-level curriculum.
Brexit case prompts lawyers to create citizenship lessons:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38731842

http://www.citizenshipfoundation.org.uk/
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

secret.simon
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by secret.simon » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:45 pm

The European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill. As expected, an exercise in brevity.
1 - Power to notify withdrawal from the EU
(1) The Prime Minister may notify, under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, the United Kingdom’s intention to withdraw from the EU.
(2) This section has effect despite any provision made by or under the EuropeanCommunities Act 1972 or any other enactment.
2 - Short title
This Act may be cited as the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017.
The text above is the whole proposed bill. The SNP, much admired in some quarters, has pledged to table 50 amendments, which will most likely be voted down en bloc.

The Parliamentary Calendar suggests that so far, atleast six days have been set aside for debate on this bill, starting from 31st January.

Contact your MP to let them know your thoughts on the Bill and how it affects you and yours.
noajthan wrote:Brexit case prompts lawyers to create citizenship lessons:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38731842

http://www.citizenshipfoundation.org.uk/
And not a moment too soon. I find the level of basic knowledge of government and the Constitution in this country absolutely appalling. Unsurprisingly, even MPs and ministers, who after all arise from the public, have an equally abysmal knowledge of the workings of government. Definitely a topic the government must make compulsory. If migrants must pass the LITUK test, so must people born here. Indeed, the test should be tougher, given that people born here are likely to have gone through school here.

It is our country and we must learn about it.
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by secret.simon » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:44 am

Anti-Brexit campaigners aim to stage UK's biggest protest march on 25th March, the 60th anniversary of the signing of the Treaty of Rome, that founded the European Economic Community, the precursor to the European Union.

It is also the last weekend in March, before the self-imposed deadline for Article 50 to be triggered.
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secret.simon
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by secret.simon » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:42 pm

Mod edit: interested persons will find more details in public domain for the march mentioned above.

I will leave it to the moderators to judge whether this post and the last should be in an independent thread or remain in this one.
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by Petaltop » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:59 pm

secret.simon wrote: It is our country and we must learn about it.
It is not our country, it is their country and we travelled here and asked if we could stay.

I'm finding it hard to come to terms with immigrants who move to a democratic country, but then don't want democracy. The vote to leave the EU was a democratic vote and even if we don't agree with the result, we should respect democracy. A bit of research into the country we wanted to live in before we moved, would have found this sinple fact out - the UK is a democratic country.

Contact your MP as say what? I don''t believe in democracy?

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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by noajthan » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:10 pm

Petaltop wrote:
secret.simon wrote: It is our country and we must learn about it.
It is not our country, it is their country and we travelled here and asked if we could stay.

...
A bit of research into the country we wanted to live in before we moved, would have found this sinple fact out - the UK is a democratic country.
Bit late for that now.
My ancestors were Huguenots not to
mention Celts also Scots, Irish.
No doubt Romans, Vikings. Probably Saxons and Normans too.
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by Petaltop » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:18 pm

noajthan wrote:
Petaltop wrote:
Bit late for that now.
My ancestors were Huguenots not to
mention Celts also Scots, Irish.
No doubt Romans, Vikings. Probably Saxons and Normans too.
Same here too i would imagine. :)

But the last few posts on here (excluding yours) have been more like children in a infant school playground, hurling insults and temper tantrums as they didn't get their own way.

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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by secret.simon » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:51 pm

Petaltop wrote:But the last few posts on here (excluding yours) have been more like children in a infant school playground, hurling insults and temper tantrums as they didn't get their own way.
Ouch.

Then again, I have been accused of much worse on these forums, so that is a relatively mild criticism.
Petaltop wrote:
secret.simon wrote:It is our country and we must learn about it.
It is not our country, it is their country and we travelled here and asked if we could stay.
It is a matter of perspective. To an extent, it is my Asian heritage that tells me that now that I am a citizen of this country, I owe my duty to this country, including the duty to integrate with it's way of life. It is now my country and I owe it to learn more about it, about the people living here, about their insecurities, their lifestyle choices, their fears and to try to assuage these fears.

Immigration is not just a case of having a fancy passport and earning in dollars, pounds or euros. It is a change of lifestyle, of perspective and possibly of values, of knowing that your children born and raised in your new country will have an entirely different childhood and set of values from you. It is a duty incumbent on the immigrant, especially when s/he acquires citizenship, to integrate with the nation that s/he now owes allegiance to. If you can't handle that, especially the fact that your children will have different values, don't immigrate.

So, it is my country now.

As an aside, it is also for similar reasons that I am here on these forums. I profited from the advice freely given out and it is my duty to give back to the community.

One way of looking at freedom of speech is that it is not a right, but a duty to ensure that all sides of the argument are explored, to ensure that any outcomes of such discussion are as evenly balanced as possible. And trust you me, balance of viewpoints is damned hard to maintain.
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by Obie » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:05 pm

From what I have read, it seem as if it is Petaltop that is being childish and seeking to incite discord in this thread.

You appear to be accusing British people here , and people who have right to be in the UK, as not their country.

I find that most offensive.

How do you describe one's country? is it by the colour of a person's skin, or their place of birth, or the passport they hold, or whether they are indigenous of a nation or the 1981 British Nationality Act.

For Example the Roman were the original inhabitant of the present day Great Britain, does that mean Anglo Saxon who came from Germany don't belong here.

Then we have Anglo Saxons who went to Australia as criminals in fetters and shackles, does that not make them Australian, or should such title be left with the aborigine who occupied that continent for centuries before Captain Cook's expedition, what about the situation of Spain, the situation of the New Zealand, America Native American, the Canadians. I can go on and on.

Please desist from saying people who are British Citizens under the 1981 Act, Hold a British Passport, and pay UK taxes don't belong to the UK and it is not their country.

You have said it before to me, and i have given you the benefit of the doubt. It is offensive and you must desist. There will be no further warning.

I don't see eye to eye with Secret Simon on many issues, but i will come to his defense on this occasion.

He is a British Citizen according to the law of the UK, I have no reason to doubt that he pays his taxes, abide by the law in the UK, and even though his view may not conform with mine, I respect the fact he is entitled to express them, and also express a view on what the UK should be moving forward.
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by Casa » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:43 pm

It may not be wholly relevant to your argument, but if I recall my history lessons correctly, the first inhabitants of the British Isles were hunter gatherers living here between 840,000 - 950,000 years ago. The Romans were the first invaders.
(Casa, not CR001)
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by Obie » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:08 pm

Casa wrote:It may not be wholly relevant to your argument, but if I recall my history lessons correctly, the first inhabitants of the British Isles were hunter gatherers living here between 840,000 - 950,000 years ago. The Romans were the first invaders.
Well the recorded history of Britain commences with the Roman invasion in AD43. That is the first recorded record of this Island.

I must restrain myself and not get into history issue .

I was merely seeking to make a point in regards to Petaltop''s statement.
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by Petaltop » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:14 pm

Obie wrote:
I was merely seeking to make a point in regards to Petaltop''s statement.
It is obvious from your anti Britsh rants on here that you don't like the British, and I have said that to you before. Why travel thousands of miles to get to the UK and more to the point, then ask if you can stay if you don't have the life you had dreamed of for yourself?

Unless we are doing a job on their shortages lists, earing six figures, or investing millions, then they don't need us. We are their uninvited guests. If you gatecrashed a party, would you then proceed to tell the host what they can and can't do or b-i-t-c-h about them while in their house?

Many immigrants appreciate our lives in the UK and are grateful we can stay. It makes us cringe to hear these few who think they can tell the Brits what to do in their own country.

As for those migrants who can't accept democracy, why did you think that democracy meant that you could get what you wanted?

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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by Wise » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:23 pm

Petaltop, please if you don't have any positive and meaningful note regarding the topic of the thread just wait until you see Obei, again your note to Obie which i pasted below is disgusting and hurting,i for one don't seek any information from people like you at all. Everyone is free to move around the world if you can abide by the rule. I will be glad if you can let us know your own heritage,my own country accommodate westerners and we don't talk about them this way End off.


Quote' Petaltop. (SURGEON YOU KNOWS WHO LIKE BRITISH AND WHO DOESN'T)

It is obvious from your anti Britsh rants on here that you don't like the British, and I have said that to you before. Why travel thousands of miles to get to the UK and more to the point, then ask if you can stay if you don't have the life you had dreamed of for yourself?

Unless we are doing a job on their shortages lists, earing six figures, or investing millions, then they don't need us. We are their uninvited guests. If you gatecrashed a party, would you then proceed to tell the host what they can and can't do or b-i-t-c-h about them while in their house?
It is really good to help and everyone deserve to be respected in life. Good luck.

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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by secret.simon » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:05 pm

There is a risk that this thread is getting a little too lively and I will attempt to return it to its primary function: discussion of the Brexit court case and its fallout.

@PetalTop: While I appreciate that you pray-in-aid the concept of democracy, it means different things to different people. What I am fairly certain it does NOT mean either "tyranny of the majority" or ochlocracy (mob rule). The will and consent of the people is vital in almost all political system, but it is not the only consideration when taking decisions. Nor is there any rational reason why 50%+1 of people voting can make a decision binding on all. That is why political constitutions have mechanisms to draw out approval and opinions of a range of stakeholders. Unfortunately, in the past fifty to a hundred years, the people (around the world, not just in the UK) have developed a false sense of value as to the worth of their opinions. I would love to elaborate further drawing from both UK and US history, but lack of time forbids.

Now returning to the topic at hand.

Pages 25-30 of the Brexit White Paper expand on the government's thoughts on EU immigration and regulating it. Crucially, Page 10-11 also states that immigration will be dealt with by primary legislation (Act of Parliament), not secondary legislation (Rules and Regulations). That will make them harder to change and may also open up further possibilities.

During an academic Brexit seminar (I have a weird and strange life), one of the speakers suggested that it is not impossible that the government may create new pathways to citizenship for EU citizens already in the UK, as happened when the various routes for Commonwealth citizens for unlimited migration to the UK ended towards the end of the 1970s. It is mere chatter and drawing on analogies, but primary legislation means that a lot more possibilities for EU citizens in the UK emerge.

Amendments have also been put down for the Brexit bill due to be debated next week that will unilaterally give the EU citizens in the UK more certainty. These amendments seem to be backed by MPs from both sides of the House and debate (Leave and Remain). There is therefore a possibility (don't hold your breath though) that some of those amendments may pass into law.

Note that all the above (apart from the documents linked to) is speculation. Do not bet your bottom dollar on it. Just be aware of the possibilities.

Also see: Brexit white paper spells out need for new immigration laws.

And on a different note (dessert any one?), Assimilation and the immigration debate: shifting people’s attitudes
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by mkhan2525 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:12 pm


secret.simon
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by secret.simon » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:24 pm

The Brexit Bill: your day-by-day guide to what happens next

Harriett Harman has put down an amendment specifically safeguarding the rights of EU citizens already in the UK. Given that she is a former Secretary of State AND current chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, there is a reasonably good chance (though not a certainty) that the amendment will be debated. It may not necessarily be accepted, but the mood of the Commons will indicate to the government whether to offer its own (better-drafted and more detailed) amendment when the bill is debated in the Lords.
To move the following Clause—
  • “Effect of notification of withdrawal Nothing in this Act shall affect the continuation of those residence rights enjoyed by EU citizens lawfully resident in the United Kingdom on 23 June 2016, under or by virtue of Directive 2004/38/EC, after the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union.”
Member’s explanatory statement-This savings new clause is designed to protect the residence rights of those EU citizens who were lawfully resident in the United Kingdom on the date of the EU referendum. It would ensure that those rights do not fall away automatically two years after notice of withdrawal has been given, if no agreement is reached with the EU. This new clause would implement a recommendation made in paragraph 53 by the Joint Committee on Human Rights in its report ‘The human rights implications of Brexit’.
Note that the proposed date is the date of the referendum, not the date of triggering Article 50.

List of all proposed amendments as of 5th February 2017
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by rooibos » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:21 pm

I see this at page 103:
Meg Hillier
Mr Graham Allen
Ann Clwyd
Heidi Alexander
Stephen Timms
Mr David Lammy
Stella Creasy Ms Karen Buck Ann Coffey
Jim Dowd Mike Gapes Mrs Madeleine Moon
Mike Gapes Chris Leslie Mr Ben Bradshaw
Mr Barry Sheerman Caroline Lucas Angela Smith
Neil Coyle Stephen Doughty Helen Hayes
Meg Hillier Mark Durkan Dr Alasdair McDonnell
Ms Margaret Ritchie Paul Farrelly Maria Eagle
Luciana Berger Ian Murray
17
Clause 1, page 1, line 5, at end insert —
“(3) Before exercising power under subsection (1), the Prime Minister must give
undertakings that all EU citizens exercising their Treaty rights in the UK who—
(a) were resident in the UK on 23 June 2016, and
(b) had been resident since at least 23 December 2015
be granted permanent residence in the UK
.”

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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by secret.simon » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:55 am

Good spot.

Meg Hillier, as the chair of the Public Accounts Committee (the oldest select committee), is fairly senior in terms of parliamentary hierarchy. So, again, possible that that amendment may be called up for debate.

What mystifies me are the choice of dates and why a person needs to have been resident on both these dates to qualify for permanent residence.
“(3) Before exercising power under subsection (1), the Prime Minister must give undertakings that all EU citizens exercising their Treaty rights in the UK who—
(a) were resident in the UK on 23 June 2016, and
(b) had been resident since at least 23 December 2015

be granted permanent residence in the UK.”
Does the law require the EU citizens to be exercising their Treaty rights specifically on those two days at least? On either one? Or for atleast all the time in between the two dates? Or on the date of promulgation of the legislation? Or some other date altogether?

Also, the definition of permanent residence is unclear.

Does it mean PR under the EEA Regulations (in which case, how relevant is it after Brexit anyway)? In any case, even the Prime Minister can not grant PR under the EEA Regulations. Only EU law can do so.

Does it mean ILR? Or is it creating a completely new category of residence via primary legislation?

Also, does such amendment exclude non-EU EEA citizens (Swiss and Norwegian citizens, for example)?

You can see why I think backbench amendments are far too imprecisely drafted for them to be actually enacted. What typically happens, as I had mentioned earlier, is that the government gets a sense of the Commons wanting an amendment and introduces a better drafted (by government lawyers) amendment in the Lords, which can then be accepted by both Houses.
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by secret.simon » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:09 am

Thus far, all amendments moved so far have been voted down, with an almost consistent vote of 333 votes against for each amendment.

Commons Divisions

House of Commons - Votes and Proceedings (6th February 2017)
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by noajthan » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:27 am

secret.simon wrote:...

What mystifies me are the choice of dates and why a person needs to have been resident on both these dates to qualify for permanent residence.
“(3) Before exercising power under subsection (1), the Prime Minister must give undertakings that all EU citizens exercising their Treaty rights in the UK who—
(a) were resident in the UK on 23 June 2016, and
(b) had been resident since at least 23 December 2015

be granted permanent residence in the UK.”
Does the law require the EU citizens to be exercising their Treaty rights specifically on those two days at least? On either one? Or for atleast all the time in between the two dates? Or on the date of promulgation of the legislation? Or some other date altogether?

...
Presumably some sort of 'committed to life in (and residing in) UK' test; similar to the 'proof of physical presence' test for naturalisation.
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by vinny » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:50 am

How do EU citizens prove that they were physically present in the UK on a certain date without landing cards, entry nor exit stamps?
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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by mkhan2525 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:49 pm

If they go by that date then they are essentially implying that EU free movement rights ended on 23rd June 2016. That cannot be right since we are still a member of the EU for atleast another 2 years from the date Article 50 has been triggered and the Brexit date should be the date where exisiting resident rights are protected from.

The Labour ammendents also do not take into account non-EU family members of EU nationals and also those who benefit from EU law. What will happen to the rights of people who fall into these categories?

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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by rooibos » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:28 pm

Look guys, this is going to be a political decision. Nothing will be based on acquired rights. Politicians write laws but are the first not understanding them, never mind respecting them.

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Re: Brexit court defeat for UK government

Post by Obie » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:00 am

I believe this brexit thing in regards to the right of EU citizens will have to be settled in UK courts one way or the other, and we are getting our armory ready for it.
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