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EU & Brexit Deal

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push, Administrator

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rooibos
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by rooibos » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:35 pm

Richard W wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:29 pm

The statement of intent is indeed much more generous than the treaty requires. I believe your permanent residence will be transformed to ILR, though you should check the wording.
You haven't read the document. This will be a special case of IRL, but not IRL. And it seems to me that, at least on paper, the conditions will be stricter than for the EEA-PR.

The thing is: I cannot trust this government; I cannot trust this Home Office and their predecessors. They are compulsive liars. They'll move the goal post at any occasion. Vote Leave promised an "automatic ILR" for all EU citizens. Where is it? The burden of proof is always on us. I am prepared for the worst. This will be Windrush on steroids, but this time there will be no happy ending.

Richard W
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Richard W » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:02 pm

rooibos wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:35 pm
Richard W wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:29 pm
The statement of intent is indeed much more generous than the treaty requires. I believe your permanent residence will be transformed to ILR, though you should check the wording.
You haven't read the document. This will be a special case of IRL, but not IRL.
I have. It will be a more resilient class of indefinite leave to remain, surviving a 5 year absence. If my memory serves me right, ILR resilience currently depends on the holders national status (or history thereof). If my memory serves me right, it lasts indefinitely for British nationals, but has to be nourished by residence in the UK for others.

Richard W
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Richard W » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:47 am

Richard W wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:02 pm
surviving a 5 year absence
Or, rather, up to but not reaching 5 years.

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Artur111
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Artur111 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:10 am

Richard W wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:29 pm
Richard W wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 3:41 pm
Artur111 wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 12:35 pm
Do you think I can apply for ILR which will replace my PR?
ILR on the basis of 10 years lawful residence looks possible - provided that you clock up 10 years before the end of the transitional period.

It is conceivable that the Home Office will be more generous than the treaty requires, and allow you to apply for settled status on the basis of your PR. This is still a common belief, but the evidence supporting it is weak.
The statement of intent is indeed much more generous than the treaty requires. I believe your permanent residence will be transformed to ILR on application, though you should check the wording.

As an allegedly trained nit picker ('Analysis I' was the course according to the schedule), the only gap I can find is the status of stateless family members - draft Rule EU9(c) and the definitions of 'required proof of identity and nationality' and 'specified relevant document' on p55. Now, I may be misunderstanding the term 'passport'. As I read things, a person who cannot obtain a passport has no right to a residence card, but may still have a right of residence. That half-way house will no longer exist; a person subject to immigration control will require leave to remain.

I further trust that there will not be problems because a current EU citizen is denied a passport, e.g. British citizens denied a passport because they have documents in more than one name.
Morning everyone,

Thank you Richard for your input.

I have read the statement of intent and I think I will be able to convert my PR into ILR (at least based on what is written on page 29 - 6.9).

Let see what the real process will be like. Anyways I have passed Life in The UK already preparing for naturalisation process in case my PR is not converted.

Artur
___________________________________________________
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Albert Einstein

Daniann
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Daniann » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:43 am

I have question ,
What is the position of family member or EEA who hold PR already and his wife ( EEA) hold OR as well
But they got divorce ( after both had their PR)
Can he still apply for the new ILR

softy monster
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by softy monster » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:42 am

what has got to do with ILR? ILR UK Law - PR EU Law (I think you meant the new settled status)
Do you have a PR, and if yes why don't you apply for a citizenship! if you don't do that now then you will be applying for the new settled status from march 2019, but free of charge as you already have a PR

all the best
Non-EEA (McCarthy Transitional Arrangement case)
PR card rec/dated:28 April 17
British Citizen: Dec 17

Daniann
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Daniann » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:21 am

Daniann wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:43 am
I have question ,
What is the position of family member or EEA who hold PR already and his wife ( EEA) hold OR as well
But they got divorce ( after both had their PR)
Can he still apply for the new ILR
Thank you for your reply but I think you didn’t understand my question .
Richard W , could you please give me your opinion as I can see from your replies your have good understand about the withdraw agreement and what the HO announced yesterday
Thank you guys
Thank you

Richard W
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Richard W » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:22 pm

Daniann wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:43 am
I have question ,
What is the position of family member or EEA who hold PR already and his wife ( EEA) hold OR as well
But they got divorce ( after both had their PR)
Can he still apply for the new ILR
Basically, yes. In the simple case, he will have a valid PRC, and will thereby satisfy Condition 1 of draft Immigration Rule EU11, by virtue of its validity not be the subject of an outstanding deportation order, exclusion order, or exclusion decision (Rule EU15 (a) and (b)). The only slight complication in general is that it must not be the case that "The applicant is subject to a removal decision under the EEA Regulations on the grounds of their non-exercise or misuse of rights under Directive 2004/38/EC" (Rule EU15 (c)). That rule could bite several people, but should not be relevant to a non-EEA national who has permanent residence.

If a PRC is not held, the equivalent of a derived right of residence will apply; this equivalent is not lost on achieving permanent residence.

There are cases where those whose right to reside currently depends on frequently crossing the border would be vulnerable; they're clearly such bad characters that they should not be allowed to stay. This bit of EU15(c) contradicts other parts of the statement of intent. Or have I misunderstood the wording?

Daniann
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Daniann » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:53 pm

Thank you Rechard W , according to my understanding the answer is yes he can exchange his PR into ILR in the normal case , which really I didn’t understand or the other terms you were discussing .
But thank you

aarontran2506
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by aarontran2506 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:34 pm

There is one gap in the statement of intent that I couldn't find anywhere. I hope the experts in this forum could enlighten me. I am a non-EA male married to a Romanian woman who will qualify for the new "settled status" (equivalent to permanent residence) in November 2019, my 5-year residence card lasts until 2023 so under the new settlement scheme I will have to switch this 5-year residence card to a 5-year "pre-settled status". So assuming that in November 2019, my wife will have her "settled status" and I will have switched my residence card to the 5-year "pre-settled status". And the unknown gap is here, if she then applies for British citizenship in November 2020 (1 year after acquiring her settled status), what kind of permanent residence will I be applying for in 2023 after being her family member for 5 years? will I have to apply for ILR because she will have become British by that time, or can I just switch the "pre-settled status" to "settled status" free of charge (as per the statement of intent) ?

Richard W
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Richard W » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:56 am

In response to aarontran2506:

As far as I can tell, she will become a dual national (Romanian and British) if she becomes British. You will therefore be able to apply for the privileged, EU-related form of ILR known as "settled status". The definition of "EU citizen" is significantly different from the current definition of EEA national in the EEA regulations; "EU citizen" includes dual nationals.

The Home Office is still working on the definition of a "relevant naturalised British citizen" to reflect the effect of the Lounes decision on the definition of "EEA national". However, I can see nothing in the proposed EU-related immigration rules that excludes any dual national (or their family) simply for being or having been a British citizen.

aarontran2506
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by aarontran2506 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:45 am

Richard W wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:56 am
In response to aarontran2506:

As far as I can tell, she will become a dual national (Romanian and British) if she becomes British. You will therefore be able to apply for the privileged, EU-related form of ILR known as "settled status". The definition of "EU citizen" is significantly different from the current definition of EEA national in the EEA regulations; "EU citizen" includes dual nationals.

The Home Office is still working on the definition of a "relevant naturalised British citizen" to reflect the effect of the Lounes decision on the definition of "EEA national". However, I can see nothing in the proposed EU-related immigration rules that excludes any dual national (or their family) simply for being or having been a British citizen.
Thanks a lot Richard, this is also what I have been thinking, and hoping to be true!

As far as I know, currently, their definition of "EEA national" is "excluding British citizen", and with the ECJ decision in Lounes it is likely to change it and include also "EEA nationals who later become naturalised British". But what is the current definition of "EU citizens"? And is the Home Office only using their current definition of "EEA national" when it comes to EU-immigration law? Because if they did consider the "EU citizens" which includes dual national, then the whole mess of Lounes wouldn't have happened in the first place?
It seems likely that I have made a mistake in understanding this whole scenario somewhere but totally unable to pinpoint exactly where the mistake is!!

Richard W
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Richard W » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:32 pm

aarontran2506 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:45 am
But what is the current definition of "EU citizens"?
On p46 of the statement of intent, "EU citizen" is defined as a "a person who is a national of: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain or Sweden".

Daniann
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Daniann » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:14 am

I have a question , if by 31/03/2019 there is no deal between U.K. and EU what will happen with the withdraw agreement in this case ? Is still valid and the U.K. will follow this agreement or the 3.2 million EU citizens and their families will wake up on that day to find there self without rights and they are illegals !!

Richard W
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Richard W » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:53 pm

aarontran2506 wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:34 pm
And the unknown gap is here, if she then applies for British citizenship in November 2020 (1 year after acquiring her settled status), what kind of permanent residence will I be applying for in 2023 after being her family member for 5 years? will I have to apply for ILR because she will have become British by that time, or can I just switch the "pre-settled status" to "settled status" free of charge (as per the statement of intent) ?
You will apply for the special form if indefinite leave to remain currently known as 'settled status' - provided your wife retains her Romanian nationality'. The charge will not depend on whether she has become British.

My statement is based on the current wording, and is consistent with the change to the EEA Regulations that implements Lounes, for your wife will have permanent residence when she becomes British.

rooibos
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by rooibos » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:15 am

Daniann wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:14 am
I have a question , if by 31/03/2019 there is no deal between U.K. and EU what will happen with the withdraw agreement in this case ? Is still valid and the U.K. will follow this agreement or the 3.2 million EU citizens and their families will wake up on that day to find there self without rights and they are illegals !!
If there is no deal, there will be no "agreement". Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

steven2018
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by steven2018 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:51 pm

Hi,

I have a question. According to the Settled Status, family members of EU Citizen will be allowed to apply under the same scheme providing the 5 years continuous residence proof. Does the duration also counts the time spent on a student visa?

I have lived in the UK for 8 years ( 5 years on the Student visa and 3 on EEA residence permit due to Expire in 2021 )

Richard W
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Richard W » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:29 pm

steven2018 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:51 pm
I have a question. According to the Settled Status, family members of EU Citizen will be allowed to apply under the same scheme providing the 5 years continuous residence proof. Does the duration also counts the time spent on a student visa?
Provided you were the family member of a resident EU citizen throughout the five years, it will count. Why were you on a student visa rather than using a right of residence as a family member?

Daniann
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Daniann » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:56 am

rooibos wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:15 am
Daniann wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:14 am
I have a question , if by 31/03/2019 there is no deal between U.K. and EU what will happen with the withdraw agreement in this case ? Is still valid and the U.K. will follow this agreement or the 3.2 million EU citizens and their families will wake up on that day to find there self without rights and they are illegals !!
If there is no deal, there will be no "agreement". Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Is U.K. really going to no deal ? I can see from the media there is kind of shifting on the government and they try to prepare the public with no deal !! What will happened with the 3.2 millions EU in U.K. then ?

rooibos
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by rooibos » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:59 am

Daniann wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:56 am
!! What will happened with the 3.2 millions EU in U.K. then ?
Oh, it will be very interesting! I'm a EU immigrant and would rather have a no deal than that stupid half baked "unsettled status" that has been hinted (and not given yet)!

Daniann
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Daniann » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:08 am

It’s not !! It’s very serious issue

Daniann
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Daniann » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:14 am

Why within no deal information which published 2 days ago no mention about EU citizen rights Who already live in uk ? What will happens to them in this case ??

Mugen
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Mugen » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

There’s more no deal guidance notes on the way. Only 24 has been published.

Richard W
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Richard W » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:01 pm

Daniann wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:56 am
Is U.K. really going to no deal ? I can see from the media there is kind of shifting on the government and they try to prepare the public with no deal !! What will happened with the 3.2 millions EU in U.K. then ?
Most EU citizens will be allowed to stay. Only criminals and those with non-EU family members are likely to have anything to fear. It seems likely that you would be okay even if you and your wife were divorcing. It is possible though, that settled status ILR will fewer privileges over normal ILR.

Daniann
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Re: EU & Brexit Deal

Post by Daniann » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:10 am

Mugen wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm
There’s more no deal guidance notes on the way. Only 24 has been published.
I don’t think there is anything to come ( in case of no deal )in regard EU citizen living in U.K, otherwise they will mention that within the first pages , I believe the withdraw agreement ( in term of EU rights ) will apply regardless deal or no deal .
Richard W, what’s your opinion?

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