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Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

FighterBoy
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by FighterBoy » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:58 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:17 am
FighterBoy wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:46 pm
I'm in this situation obie, as are 100s of thousands I suspect. Born in UK to settled father and he had to return/destroy ILR after becoming BC.
I doubt there would be many people in this position.

The requirement to destroy BRPs (which only started getting issued in the past ten years) only came in in the past three-four years.

The policy only adversely affects children born after one parent acquired an ILR BRP, but whose parent subsequently naturalized in the past three-four years. That is a relatively narrow field. While certainly in the hundreds, and possibly the low thousands, I'm fairly certain that it would not impact hundreds of thousands of applicants.

If your father acquired ILR in the 1980s, that would have been stamped into his non-British passport. Passports are the property of the government that issue them and it is highly unlikely that the British government would have damaged or destroyed any part of a non-British passport. Therefore, the proof of your British citizenship by birth in the UK to a settled parent would your father's non-British passport with the ILR stamp or vignette dated before your birth and have nothing to do with the BRP destruction point made by Vinny and Obie.
What if he was issued an IRL confirmation letter instead, sent that in when getting naturalised, and the home office subsequently kept/destroyed the letter? That is similar to this BRP situation.

I agree they wouldn't keep/destroy foreign passports.

FighterBoy
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by FighterBoy » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:44 pm

Richard W wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 12:01 pm
So do you believe that the documentary difficulties with proving that one was born to settled parents are deliberate? Shirley Williams predicted a bureaucratic mess at the time (1981), and we are seeing more and more of it. For instance, we need either a register of British citizens (or a good approximation thereto - passport office records are only a start) or a simplifying rule such as the second generation born in the UK is automatically British. Passport applications are already asking where grandparents were born, and it is about time to start asking about great grandparents.

It is also worrying that no long term record seems to be being kept about who is known to have acquired settled status.
I said this years ago, what's the point of a law saying UK born children to a settled parent are British, if in many many cases it's impossible to prove?

No permanent registry of settlers, home office records deleted after X years, old foreign passports lost/destroyed, dead/estranged parents, etc etc.

I agree it's a mess and I fear intentionally so, since the necessary administrative steps weren't taken.

If anyone has footage/transcripts of BNA 1981 being debated in parliament, please share. The passport office are certainly grafting hard ...

Richard W
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by Richard W » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:07 am

FighterBoy wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:44 pm
If anyone has footage/transcripts of BNA 1981 being debated in parliament, please share. The passport office are certainly grafting hard ...
It's in Hansard, which is available for free on-line. That's where I found Shirley Williams' comments.

secret.simon
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by secret.simon » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:20 am

FighterBoy wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:44 pm
If anyone has footage/transcripts of BNA 1981 being debated in parliament, please share.
Not at all sure why you think the transcripts of the debates would help in any way with the Passport Office. Neither the courts nor the government use the debates as the basis for interpreting legislation. It is the text of the law and general judicial principles that affect the interpretation of the law. If an MP or even a minister said during a debate that the law was supposed to work in a particular manner during a debate, that is irrelevant in terms of how it actually works.

As for the link, https://handard.parliament.uk. The BNA 1981 received Royal Assent on 30th October 1981, during prorogation (i.e. it was the last day of that session of Parliament). You will therefore have to search through the entire preceding year (from November 1980 to October 1981) to get the transcripts of all the debates in the House.

Keep in mind that the Bill (now Act) was one in a series to stem uncontrolled immigration, at that time, from the Commonwealth countries as they became free. In many ways, it presaged the arguments on EU free movement. At that time, Commonwealth citizens could move to the UK unconditionally. Progressively, from the 1962 Commonwealth Immigrants Act through the Immigration Act 1971 till the redefinition of British citizenship by the BNA 1981, the rules for residing in the UK were toughened. The difference is that the UK Parliament could do so unilaterally then, while of course now it has to be negotiatied with the EU.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

FighterBoy
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by FighterBoy » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:03 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:20 am
Not at all sure why you think the transcripts of the debates would help in any way with the Passport Office. Neither the courts nor the government use the debates as the basis for interpreting legislation. It is the text of the law and general judicial principles that affect the interpretation of the law. If an MP or even a minister said during a debate that the law was supposed to work in a particular manner during a debate, that is irrelevant in terms of how it actually works.
I never said that! My point was if they've introduced a law then the government should take necessary administrative steps alongside it. I assume that's why permanent birth/marriage/death certs exist.

The law doesn't prescribe any particular types/sets of evidence in proving a claim, only that the onus is on one to prove it on a balance of probability.

The passport and home offices however, have a far more restrictive criteria for evidence and don't judge it on any such balance. They simply demand xyz official documents or reject the applicant.

It seems easier to prove a claim by going to court as you can present any evidence you wish, including witnesses, and the judge decides on balance of probability. You can't do that with the offices.

Thanks for the link, will take a look.

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