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Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, Administrator

secret.simon
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by secret.simon » Thu May 03, 2018 6:22 pm

Obie wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:18 pm
I am prepared to proceed on the basis that you are playing devils advocate
Every fanatic needs to be balanced out by a devil's advocate. The stronger the fanaticism, the stronger the devil's advocate needs to be. Otherwise, we will end up with Trump. But just as hate is not the opposite of love (disinterest is), the opposite of fanaticism is not fanaticism at the other end of the scale, but moderation.

If people could avoid being fanatic and could exercise self-control, there would be no need for either moderation or playing devil's advocate.
Obie wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:41 pm
I remember being told during practice that it Is it Better that Ten Guilty Persons Go Free Than that One Innocent Person be Convicted.

If a legal system fail one person, it is worst than wrongly acquitting 10 guilty person .
The exchange rate is lousy. Such a principle would allow too many guilty people free and would not be very useful.
Obie wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 5:41 pm
we are therefore entitled
The most common issues nowadays are caused by people thinking that they are "entitled". If everybody exercised their entitlement, there would be anarchy, as one person's entitlement would encroach on another person's. Brexit is a good example of entitlements cancelling each other out. EU citizens were entitled to enter the UK without restriction and the British people used their entitlement to vote to advise the government to take the EU citizens' entitlement away. As mentioned above, entitlements only work if their exercise is self-restrained. Self-control and not claiming everything one is entitled to is the only way society can survive. If everybody enforced their entitlement, there would be no society as it would be every person for themselves.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by Obie » Thu May 03, 2018 6:54 pm

Firstly i do not consider myself a Fanatic, as i do not espouse extreme religious or political views. The fact that you may prefer i espouse a more Wanderer view does not make me a fanatic. The views i speak of are view every decent human being share.

I respect views like Wanderer's for example even though i do not believe in it. They are clear on their position as i am clear on mine. Centrism is not authentic in my view, it involves a compromise between two ends of a spectrum.

I remember telling my chemistry teacher at A level that i do not like Neutral on the PH scale as it is inauthentic. I prefer to be either is 0 of the PH scale or in 14. Either i am Acidic or Alkaline.

However in relation to the situation of the windrush people, it is difficult to appreciate a middle position.

My views are well in the mainstream.
After thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that brexit is a cancer. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.

FXR_1340
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by FXR_1340 » Thu May 03, 2018 7:06 pm

Really interesting reading here.

Would anyone wish to float a view as to why the Windrush data was destroyed?

Was it a lack of thinking and/or understanding of the situation. Or was it part of a cospiracy?

secret.simon
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by secret.simon » Thu May 03, 2018 7:13 pm

Obie wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:54 pm
Centrism is not authentic in my view, it involves a compromise between two ends of a spectrum.
Errr, yes. Compromise is the essence of a diverse world.
Obie wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:54 pm
I remember telling my chemistry teacher at A level that i do not like Neutral on the PH scale as it is inauthentic. I prefer to be either is 0 of the PH scale or in 14. Either i am Acidic or Alkaline.
So says the person who is not a fanatic :D

I can so completely believe that you would tell your teacher that. Kind of proves my point. Both ends of the pH scale are hazardous and dangerous to life :D :). On the other hand, the dull and utterly centrist water is required for life itself.

I apologise for my lighter tone here. I am enjoying this conversation.
FXR_1340 wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:06 pm
Was it a lack of thinking and/or understanding of the situation. Or was it part of a cospiracy?
I agree that the situation of the Windrush citizens is unfortunate. Where I disagree is that I base it on incompetence and lack of forward planning, not active malice.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by Obie » Thu May 03, 2018 7:32 pm

Well the human body is made up of 60-65 percent of water anyway, so why do one need more water. We need acid to kill bacteria in human stomach. Alkaline needed for the female reproductive tract. So Alkaline and Acid are important also.

Coming to the wind rush, i have no doubt in my mind it was down to malice, unless the government can put other preposition before me. I am sorry SecretSimon, i was not sure that was our point of contention, I thought we disagreed on the whole Windrush issue. I hope our views can be reconciled one day, but at present they are a gulf apart.

The government could have said it was a mistake, but the question will be, no that cannot be a mistake, how could it be, It simply cannot be. I do not support the Wanderer proposition that it was a mistake. It was a well thought through policy to burn them so no right could be claimed from them.

I don't just think the windrush case is unfortunate, i think it is abhorrent, indefensible, suspicious, mysterious, properly calculated and well mexecuted with the intention of causing immeasurable harm.

In regards to how to deal with it, i have lobbied my local MP, notified him that if we don't see him take action we will make sure we don't forget when we next get the opportunity. I informed him we have about 15 known windrush victims in our local authority who are all voters. I made clear to him that his predecessor was a good person, a nice man who will bend over backward to help us, until his party choose to join company with the Tories and we as a community made sure he paid for the misadventure. We made clear to him that we reward loyalty. That we should not be taken for granted. That his predecessor served us for nearly 30 years, began well before my time, but eventually he paid the price.

I told him we will monitor his voting pattern, i was happy he voted for the motion. I told him the step he takes now will determine my vote for the next 20 years. He got the message. He has been very good so far, bless him. He has done all what we asked of him. He voted against Article 50, he voted for a meaningful Brexit vote, following our consultation, he said he will vote in favour of a custom union. So I have no issues locally. Our representative is taking notes of our views. He is not like that Vauxhall Labour woman, he is aware that about 80% of his constituent voted against Brexit and hate.

The rejection of the labour motion confirms to me that it was not mistake, this government is hiding something, as they don't want to disclose it to parliament, the Guardian will disclose it to us, of that i am very sure.
After thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that brexit is a cancer. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.

secret.simon
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by secret.simon » Thu May 03, 2018 7:58 pm

Obie wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:32 pm
We need acid to kill bacteria in human stomach. Alkaline needed for the female reproductive tract. So Alkaline and Acid are important also.
True, but not at 0 and 14.

Mind you, when I was younger, I had a pretty sharp tongue and I used to joke that if I bit my tongue, I would die of acid poisoning. :D :)

Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence - Hanlon's razor.

Another point of difference between us: I would rather that my MP can analyse a situation and vote responsibly for the good of the country, than have loyalty towards me or my community. But then, I have Burkean leanings.
Burke's speech to the electors of Bristol wrote:Parliament is not a congress of ambassadors from different and hostile interests; which interests each must maintain, as an agent and advocate, against other agents and advocates; but parliament is a deliberative assembly of one nation, with one interest, that of the whole; where, not local purposes, not local prejudices, ought to guide, but the general good, resulting from the general reason of the whole. You choose a member indeed; but when you have chosen him, he is not member of Bristol, but he is a member of parliament.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by Obie » Thu May 03, 2018 8:04 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:58 pm
Obie wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:32 pm
We need acid to kill bacteria in human stomach. Alkaline needed for the female reproductive tract. So Alkaline and Acid are important also.
True, but not at 0 and 14.

Mind you, when I was younger, I had a pretty sharp tongue and I used to joke that if I bit my tongue, I would die of acid poisoning. :D :)

Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence - Hanlon's razor.
Thank GOd you did not bit your tongue then, otherwise I would not have had anyone to disagree with.
After thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that brexit is a cancer. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by Obie » Thu May 03, 2018 8:09 pm

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
Sorry Simon, you misquoted. It is unhelpful to remove the proper quote to support a particular view point.
What Mrs May did and the subsequent circumstantial evidence cannot be adequately explained by Stupidity.

The views of the county varies differently from the country. For Example if you do to Newry in Northern Ireland, you will find that the view of the people there are much different from say Derry or Ballymena in county Antrim.

MP were selected to represent their country. When their country is moving in the wrong directions, they need to consider the needs of the ones who butter their bread.
After thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that brexit is a cancer. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by FXR_1340 » Thu May 03, 2018 8:15 pm

Obie wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 7:32 pm
........

Coming to the wind rush, i have no doubt in my mind it was down to malice,
You think the destruction of the Windrush evidence was part of a Master Plan?

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by Obie » Fri May 04, 2018 11:58 am

After thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that brexit is a cancer. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.

FXR_1340
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by FXR_1340 » Fri May 04, 2018 3:45 pm

I am assuming this is your evidence justifying your claim that the Windrush debacle was premeditated?

Stretching it a bit, isnt it?

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by vinny » Fri May 04, 2018 10:40 pm

I think that

destroying landing cards
abolishing exit controls
destroying parent's ILR BRP
having too complex immigration rules

are probably examples of incompetence.

However, their consequences in an inflexible hostile environment are deliberate. Removing appeal rights is malicious, if they also consider people guilty until proven innocent.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by Obie » Fri May 04, 2018 10:55 pm

Well, by definition incompetence in the inability of someone to do something or a task successfully.

The landing card burning or destruction is difficult to describe as that. It was a government policy which was properly executed. This is not a decision which civil servant undertook without the authority of the executive or politician. I will not call it incompetence, as it was properly burnt. Had they burnt some and left others, then it may have been properly characterized as incompetent.

There is no question of whether the burning was properly executed, the question is why it was burnt. To take such policy decision, there has to be underlying reasons. I have so far being unable to see any rational reason for the burning.

In the absence of a intelligible explanation, i believe one is entitled to make reasonable inferences, one of which could be dubious , birder line malicious intent, giving the ensuing event that follows the destruction.

They could have got a system in place of determining how many of the windrush people have applied for British passport, and those that have record of having applied for a passport could have their cards burnt.

One think i admire this forum for, and why i am so proud to be one of its moderators, is the fact that everyone is entitled to express his or her opinion without fear or favour, even if we be fundamentally differ on our views on matter.
After thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that brexit is a cancer. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by vinny » Sat May 05, 2018 12:15 am

I was using a broader definition.
INCOMPETENT wrote:or lack of metal capacity to understand the consequences of his actions.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by secret.simon » Sat May 05, 2018 10:19 am

Somebody at the BBC or the FT reads this website. Alan Johnson, the former Labour Home Secretary, was just asked about the hostile environment starting under Labour, pretty much the same point I made two days ago.

Today's episode of The Week in Westminster, presented by George Parker of the Financial Times, should be available as a podcast soon.

Last week's edition of The Westminster Hour is also worth listening to. It looks at Home Office policy in the round.

The Economist makes a case for reviving the Labour Identity Card for everybody (i.e. not just migrants, but everybody will be asked to carry documentation, just like the rest of Europe).
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by FXR_1340 » Sat May 05, 2018 1:49 pm

This subject becomes more confusing with each post.

In order to help understanding, what are the reasond behind the so called "hostile environment"?

In the event of it beginning, or at least possibly having its roots, back in mid 2000s what were the drivers?

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by secret.simon » Sat May 05, 2018 2:34 pm

FXR_1340 wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 1:49 pm
In order to help understanding, what are the reasond behind the so called "hostile environment"?
This is my reading of the runes, so not everybody will agree with it.

I believe that atleast part of the trigger was, as I quoted in an earlier post, the ease with which illegal people present in the UK could survive. In continental Europe, life is very hard, as documentation is required for routine actions. In the UK, you could get by without being questioned about your residence status.

That was alleged to be at least part of the cause for the formation of the Jungle at Calais. France is not a poor country, nor is it negatively inclined against immigration any more than the UK. So, why the desire to get to the UK? While part of the motivation was also said to be joining family here and that the migrants were more likely to speak basic English rather than French (I blame the Empire), the fact that one could live a fairly normal life in the UK without documentation was also a factor.

As mentioned, the hostile environment is ironically a European import and not an original idea. We are essentially aping France and Belgium in requiring papers to be proven at various intervals, when accessing services, whether private (housing, bank accounts, etc) or public (healthcare).

If you trawl though these forums, you will see that many people survived for years, occasionally even a decade or more, before legalising their stay. In some cases, they did not mind remaining illegal, as there used to be a 14 year (legal+illegal) path to ILR, that was shut in 2012, when it was replaced by a 20 (legal+illegal) +10(legal) year path to ILR.

Also, if you read the Economist article that I linked to above, it makes the argument that in this age of mass movement, merely controlling borders is not enough to control migration. One must also be aware of people living within the country on an ongoing basis. And one way to do that is require documentation of various rights to be verified on a regular basis.
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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by Obie » Sat May 05, 2018 3:17 pm

vinny wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 12:15 am
I was using a broader definition.
INCOMPETENT wrote:or lack of metal capacity to understand the consequences of his actions.
Well we will have to see. At least they owe it to the public to provide the legal advise they received in regards to the conclusion that holding the card breaches the DPA.

I can see we are delving into the diminished responsibility area, but can one really make this assessment when the government is hiding everything for us? they said it had to be done as a legal consequence of the DPA. That make no sense, there are no provision of the DPA obliges the Home Office to burn those card.
After thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that brexit is a cancer. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by Obie » Sat May 05, 2018 3:59 pm

FXR_1340 wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 1:49 pm
This subject becomes more confusing with each post.

In order to help understanding, what are the reasond behind the so called "hostile environment"?

In the event of it beginning, or at least possibly having its roots, back in mid 2000s what were the drivers?
Well it is difficult to go into the mind of those ministers that came to the decision to burn those cards, but one can lay out some theory and let you guys make up your mind.

On the 20-04-1968, there was a very prominent and respected Tory MP ( within the Tory party circle and their constituents at least) who gave a speech in Birmingham. This April marks half a century since he gave the speech.

He complained about the windrush people and the fact that the government must not allow them to come in, his speech was titled the river of blood. His views were well supported in the UK at a time when there was not much migration to the UK.

The Tories have always thrived on vilification of migrant. It is a policy that unites and binds them as a party, and a policy that enables them to rally their base in England. This nativist, cultural and anti-globalisation approach is what mobilises the conservatives. Lets face it, without migrant the Tories will have difficulties to make in roads especially in middle England. They have nothing to offer the poor and middle class. All they can give is tax cuts to the rich.

In 2005 Election i remember coming from school with my friends, and seeing this poster of Michael Howard, with the caption," Immigration is too high, are you thinking what we are thinking",It is 13 years ago but i still remember it, that was from a man whose parents came to this country running away from the Nazi, seeking to vilify migrant just for political gains to unite his party and their base. From that day, i made a decision that i shall never vote for these people. The billboards was put right at the entrance to my school, in inner London school with 38% children from ethnic background. Why did the Tories felt the need to put it infront of our school?

We know the story of Peter Griffiths, how he scapegoated Smethwick black voters. We know some of the despicable things he said when voters were surging to vote for his opponent, they are so abhorrent that i will not repeat them on this forum. That 1964 election happened in the Period of Windrush, when UK was begging these people to come in, and getting ship to bring them, when net migration was in the Negative.

To call windrush scandal 2018 as a mistake, demonstrate either a very high degree of ignorance, border line naivety of how the Tories operates and how they have operated for over a century, and how they will continue to operate in the future.
It is not an accident by any stretch of the imagination, it is their modus operandi. Hostility to migrant is in the Tories DNA and nothing will ever change that . They never make a mistake when it come to migrant. It is their football, they have always had to play it to maximum effect.

They have taken onboard what Mr Powell said in 1968, they have to make right, what they perceive in their minds as historical injustice caused as a result of ignoring one of their most respected MP's views on these people. As they approach the 50th anniversary of his speech they needed to do something spectacular. They had to make right the wrong that Mr Powell told them was being perpetrated in letting these people in, they had to burn these landing card that was acting as an obstacle to their endeavour, they had to then ask these people to prove the unprovable, they had to detain them and refuse them cancer treatment, they had to stop those who had left from returning, they had to refuse the advise from those who complained about the wrongness of their practice, they had to make the UK an hostile environment. They have to make windrush people go, they have to take on board the advise given in 1968, they realised it may have been a mistake to ignore it. The windrush migrant had to go, it was a mistake to let them In in the first place. As wanderer correctly stated, the UK was too full to accommodate them. It was a well calculated and executed policy

The same Tories at the 1964 election, who supported Peter Griffiths with all the means at their disposal, same Tories who supported Enoch Powell, the same Tories who said are you thinking what we are thinking, and we clearly know what they were thinking then and now, it is the same Tories we have today in power, the only difference is that in the 60's they do these things overtly, and in 2018 they are doing it covertly. They use dog-whistles ,nuances, words like hostile environment, use those annoying buses around London to intimidate.

I do not believe , when it comes to immigration that anything the conservatives do can ever be described as a mistake or accident.

They are showing regret because they were caught, and their reputation took a hit from people around the world. There is not an ounce of contrition on their part as far as i can see.

It is a wrongful approach to view these events in isolation as a one of event. One has to assess historical events, data, study the working of the Tories, their past practices, things that have said or done, acts they have supported implicitly or explicitly, then come to a conclusion as to the Windrush people, in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

David Lammy speech hit the nail on the coffin, he may seem angry, but the Tories understand fully well what he was saying to them.
After thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion that brexit is a cancer. The only good brexit is a dead brexit.

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Re: Is May's 'Hostile Environment Reminiscent Of Nazi Germany

Post by secret.simon » Sat May 05, 2018 4:28 pm

Snap pub quiz question: Who called the Conservatives the "Nasty Party" in 2002? Moderators and respected Gurus, please do not respond.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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