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Moderators: Casa, archigabe, CR001, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, Administrator
Indeed.secret.simon wrote:"Reciprocal" can mean different things to different people.
I think we have to understand the nature of the community on this discussion board. We are discussing immigration, which is a broad issue that has to deal with many more factors like integration, education just to mention a few. So for us to assume that all members are at the same level of understanding or should be able to interpret the jargons used by industry professionals on this board, is a matter of regret.noajthan wrote:Indeed.secret.simon wrote:"Reciprocal" can mean different things to different people.
And there's a fine line between a numerator and a denominator. Only a fraction of people appreciate that.
That is a really good one. I must try it out on somebody soon.noajthan wrote:there's a fine line between a numerator and a denominator. Only a fraction of people appreciate that.
If we didn't have a little light relief on the forum (in the form of humour), the forum would be a very boring experience.DFDS. wrote:I think we have to understand the nature of the community on this discussion board. We are discussing immigration, which is a broad issue that has to deal with many more factors like integration, education just to mention a few. So for us to assume that all members are at the same level of understanding or should be able to interpret the jargons used by industry professionals on this board, is a matter of regret.noajthan wrote:Indeed.secret.simon wrote:"Reciprocal" can mean different things to different people.
And there's a fine line between a numerator and a denominator. Only a fraction of people appreciate that.
No I don't. I am well aware that often immigrants get given more in the UK, than a British citizen would in their country.secret.simon wrote:"Reciprocal" can mean different things to different people.
I think PetalTop interprets it to mean as being the same terms on which an EEA (such as Italian) citizen would get the same benefit in the UK.
Not "recoprical" in the way that you can move to the UK for better benefits, from the Brits. Even though EU migrants have given them nothing or very little, but we don't do that for Brits in our country. It is why the UK is the country of choice for many low skilled EEA migrants from poor or debt ridden countries.SarahM1972 wrote:The above makes no sense to me. Sorry if I try to correct this misinformation. I only speak from my experience in my own country, Italy, but Brits cannot claim welfare benefits because Italians cannot claim benefits.... You need to prove you've minimum two full years of tax contributions (104 weeks) into the state work/pension system to claim benefits, whether you're Italian or British. Furthermore, if you've been unemployed one year, you only get 6 months of JSA and then it's over, no more benefits.Petaltop wrote: Some of these "reciprocal" deals within the EU, aren't reciprocal. Brits in other EU countries have to wait to claim that countries benefits, while their citizens in the UK claim UK benefits after 3 months. The NHS is also free for them to use, but it doesn't work like that in other EU countries. Often the NHS gives more cover than they can get in their own country.
When you read about 40% of youth unemployment in Italy, most of the financial burden is shouldered by the parents and not the state, because the majority of youngsters unlikely has the tax contributions needed to claim benefits.
The NHS in Italy is also organised as the British NHS, after three months you can register at a local GP (ASL) and receive a temporary card if you are EEA and want to be a resident.
Sorry. I re-read and see what you mean.secret.simon wrote:"Reciprocal" can mean different things to different people.
I think PetalTop interprets it to mean as being the same terms on which an EEA (such as Italian) citizen would get the same benefit in the UK.
Your interpretation is that the UK citizen would be treated on the same terms as a citizen of that country in that country (the conventional EU interpretation).
Like with the migrants being invited to the EU, you mean? All the countries decided to do that? They didn't.Obie wrote:Petaltop you seem to possess a huge degree of ignorance as to how things work in the EU and how legislation are brought about. I find it must disturbing when I have the misfortune of rea ding some of your posts.
Firstly Germany does not make EU law. None of the 27 countries are responsible for making EU law.
The commission and the EU parliament are responsible for making of EU law.
What?Obie wrote:Secondly there is no evidence to back your claim that EU citizens get more in Benefit than EU nationals.
Seeing as we are being honest, I get deeply concerned with some of your posts. I find your posts incite hatred against the UK. I wonder why you are allowed to be a moderator with this attitude that you display? You seem to hate the UK, but you wanted to get to the UK, now find you hate it, yet still stay here. Not normal behaviour.Obie wrote:I perfectly respect and will endorse your right to free speech, but when presented as facts, I get deeply concerned.
No, Germany does not make EU law. But being the largest country (in terms of population and hence voting rights in both the Council and in the European Parliament), its voice and opinions on European matters counts more than say, Belgium or Slovakia or Estonia. Hence such opinion, when aired by senior German government personnel or bodies would be considered more indicative of the general direction of travel than say the equivalent government personnel of Portugal or the Netherlands.Obie wrote:Firstly Germany does not make EU law. None of the 27 countries are responsible for making EU law.
As I understand it, the European Council (heads of government of the 28 states) outlines the strategy, which the Commission is then tasked with implementing. It then proposes legislation that must be agreed to by both the Council of the European Union (ministers of the member states) and the European Parliament.Obie wrote:The commission and the EU parliament are responsible for making of EU law.
I could've sworn the Commission contained a lot of politicians. However, a more likely explanation would be, "What's good for Germany is good for Europe".Obie wrote:In the commission all reps from the 28 state swear an oath to act in the interest of the EU, therefore I find it odd, that the commission , contrary to their oath will be working and acting in the interest of Germany.
Rightly so, if I may say. I don't see why as an Italian taxpayer I should pay for other people's children. And abortion is legal in Italy too, so their choice... their money.Petaltop wrote: As you used Italy - they don't have benefits for young single mothers and the parents of those young pregnant girls, are expected to keep them and their grandchild.
My mum is on one of those benefits until the end of her life so I have no idea where you got that information.Petaltop wrote: Take a retired "family memeber" to Italy and they won't give them benefits and free housing as they expect the EU national to keep their own "family members".
I assume you've not travelled much if you are believing that.....Petaltop wrote: The Brit has to take out health insurance when they visit Australia, but the Australains are given full cover in the UK.
I've not heard of a single immigrant who wanted to retire here, sorry hahahahaha Not even British pensioners want to retire in UK lolPetaltop wrote: A lot of immigrants retire to the UK if they can, because they "get given more". Retire to the US and the Brit won't be given free healthcare.
I'd stop giving all these 'freebies' to people who don't need them, regardless of nationality.Petaltop wrote: As they give all these "freebies", the UK attracts too many of the wrong sort of immigrant. The UK needs to stop giving all these.
I think it is clear now that Petaltop is doing it on purpose. No, seriously. Tomorrow he will say that the Earth is flat watching you guys trying to persuade him otherwise.Petaltop wrote:
A lot of immigrants retire to the UK if they can, because they "get given more". Retire to the US and the Brit won't be given free healthcare.
If that is what PetalTop is doing, I think that he is doing this forum a service. There is an anti-immigration feeling out there that played a part in the Brexit vote. We, as migrants and families of migrants, need to address that.Nimitta wrote:I think it is clear now that Petaltop is doing it on purpose. No, seriously. Tomorrow he will say that the Earth is flat watching you guys trying to persuade him otherwise.
That is why, once again, Merkel topped the list of Forbes, 100 most powerful women.secret.simon wrote: No, Germany does not make EU law. But being the largest country (in terms of population and hence voting rights in both the Council and in the European Parliament), its voice and opinions on European matters counts more than say, Belgium or Slovakia or Estonia. Hence such opinion, when aired by senior German government personnel or bodies would be considered more indicative of the general direction of travel than say the equivalent government personnel of Portugal or the Netherlands.
Is she a Brit who was taken to Itlay as your dependant family member, paid nothing to Italy, but given "benefits until the end of her life" by Italy?SarahM1972 wrote:My mum is on one of those benefits until the end of her life so I have no idea where you got that information.Petaltop wrote: Take a retired "family memeber" to Italy and they won't give them benefits and free housing as they expect the EU national to keep their own "family members".
Yes it does (at the moment) for the group I mentioned; pension age and living in UK social housing. I can think of lots more instances when HB and LHA (private lets) and SMI (Support for Mortgage Interest) pays the rent. If you are on a interest only mortgage, then the interest part is the rent. These are present rules though and it is' all change' under the UK's welfare reforms.SarahM1972 wrote:Free housing doesn't exist in UK either, because my brother-in-law family is all on benefits in UK and they pay rent, a small amount of money but they pay for rent.
Look on the NHS website, they advise to take out travel insurance when visiting Australia. Then look on the Austalian site for visiting the UK.SarahM1972 wrote:I assume you've not travelled much if you are believing that.....Petaltop wrote: The Brit has to take out health insurance when they visit Australia, but the Australains are given full cover in the UK.
SarahM1972 wrote:I've not heard of a single immigrant who wanted to retire here, sorry hahahahaha Not even British pensioners want to retire in UK lolPetaltop wrote: A lot of immigrants retire to the UK if they can, because they "get given more". Retire to the US and the Brit won't be given free healthcare.
The NHS is a freebie if you didn't pay all your 40 years plus working taxes to the UK by the time you reach pension age, when you are likely to cost the NHS more. Are you happy not to be given that freebie?SarahM1972 wrote:I'd stop giving all these 'freebies' to people who don't need them, regardless of nationality.
I was reading on another EU forum, that Jucker wants to try to remove the powers of the European Council. I'll see if I can find that link again.secret.simon wrote:As I understand it, the European Council (heads of government of the 28 states) outlines the strategy, which the Commission is then tasked with implementing. It then proposes legislation that must be agreed to by both the Council of the European Union (ministers of the member states) and the European Parliament.Obie wrote:The commission and the EU parliament are responsible for making of EU law.
For everybody's reference, here is a short guide to the EU Institutions on the EU website and an introduction to the EU Commission on their website.
And your point is...Obie wrote:Suffice to say, that Gisela Stuart was German.
Even Hitler as far as I remember was German .
Obie wrote:Well I can provide many report from University College London , LsE , that confirms that EU citizens make more contribution than they take out.
I agree with you on that. But that does not mean that I would (if I could) silence others for claiming an incorrect viewpoint. I would merely correct them with links to relevant information.secret.simon wrote:There is a feeling among the public that migrants, particularly EU migrants, take more out of the pot that they put in or should be entitled to take out, at any rate. Looking at the stats and studies, I am convinced that it is not true
Not you too. There is a difference between the Council of Europe and the European Council.Obie wrote:European law is neither made by the Council of Europe ,
Locking up for the night to allow time for reflection.Casa wrote:To be honest secret.simon....it's been a long day and I've lost the will with this one.