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New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, Zimba, Administrator

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nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:25 pm

Am a noneu into our 3 yrs rc. So even if the law is implemented, will they have the right just to turn around and annulate the RC that they issued? Bit ott me thinks

Salem
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Salem » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:33 pm

nemerkh wrote:Am a noneu into our 3 yrs rc. So even if the law is implemented, will they have the right just to turn around and annulate the RC that they issued? Bit ott me thinks
My non EU wife is similar, 3 years into her 5 years RC.

There's so many variables at present, no one can answer with any clarity.

If it's even brought in, it might be transitional, as many such things have been before, so you and my wife would be fine.

If not I'd guess once the 5 years RC was up, then you couldn't progress to PR, you'd have to use whatever route was available to you, based on your own personal circumstances.

I very much doubt they would just cancel or annul any valid RC's etc.

But as I say, it's all guess work and conjecture at present, so not getting too concerned until I know exactly what the new law/requirements are, if there are any.

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:38 pm

By the way, having 2 uk born children eldest is 8 i heard there is some sort of law not allowing kicking out of country on the basis of child wont be fit for changing country or something like that. Wonder if this applies

Salem
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Salem » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:44 pm

Also just watched Cameron live on Sky News say it will bring an 'end to the ridiculous way EU Residents being able to bring non EU family members to the UK without being subject to UK Immigration Law'.

So again, conjecture in my part, but hoping if it does happen, it will be transitional, only for new applicants. From a purely selfish viewpoint :oops:

To be fair, I can see how your average UK Citizen gets would up about this with the rigmarole they have to go through to bring a non EU wife to the UK. Not saying agree with or want this judgement in any way, just saying I can see how UK residents get upset about it.

Salem
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Salem » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:49 pm

nemerkh wrote:By the way, having 2 uk born children eldest is 8 i heard there is some sort of law not allowing kicking out of country on the basis of child wont be fit for changing country or something like that. Wonder if this applies
Yes, I'm aware of something along those lines, something saying that a mother cannot be removed from her child. Although I'm not sure if this is a EU Directive, a Human Rights Directive, that the UK could override if they voted out, or what the situation is.

Again, it's all conjecture at present, but something we'd have to possibly look at, with our soon to be born daughter who will have a UK Passport.

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:21 pm

Even David Cameron at the parliament today was not stupid enough to suggest the UK can repeal the 1972 act before the 2 years period provided in Article 50 of the Treaty.

He is hoping that the Memberstate will renew it if a trade agreement is not reached before the 2 years elapse.

He is also aware the free movement will continue without the restrictions on Benefit that he had secured if UK voted to leave.

Only Boris Johnson thinks we will get a second referendum .
Black life matters.

Salem
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Salem » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:58 pm

Obie wrote:Even David Cameron at the parliament today was not stupid enough to suggest the UK can repeal the 1972 act before the 2 years period provided in Article 50 of the Treaty.

He is hoping that the Memberstate will renew it if a trade agreement is not reached before the 2 years elapse.

He is also aware the free movement will continue without the restrictions on Benefit that he had secured if UK voted to leave.

Only Boris Johnson thinks we will get a second referendum .
Yes, on a personal level, if it was an Out and took the full 2 years from date of the Referendum, my wife's 5 years would be up in just over 18 months from today, so would well be in the time to get PR before anything changed.

Just have to not stress too much, and wait and see what happens.

secret.simon
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:37 pm

Obie wrote:Only Boris Johnson thinks we will get a second referendum .
I agree with Boris on this point. The EU has done that in the past. The Danes and Irish got important concessions in 1992 and 2001. The way it works with the EU is that you keep repeating referendums until you vote the right way. :D

This is even more likely if as expected the results will be close, something like a 48-52 result to leave. I believe that the EU will make concessions and there will be a rerun.
Obie wrote:Fysicus is talking about law .
And I am talking politics. And politics shapes the law.
Obie wrote:Wish I had changed last week.
You had mentioned in an earlier post that your vote is determined by the euros you get for your European vacation. I see that you keep a close eye on the market.
Obie wrote:UK Is bound by its international obligations under the treaty until and unless it officially vacates the EU in accordance with the treaty.
International treaties don't stop the UK from changing its own laws unilaterally.
Obie wrote:There are over 2 million Britain living in the EU and it will be odd for the UK to apply policy and legislation without those other states taking reciprocal steps.
LIfe is odd. I am an oddity, as are you and yet life goes on.

I hope that all those British citizens who are eligible to vote as overseas voters register to vote for the referendum. Given how close the results are expected to be, their votes may be crucial. Please repeat the link on your social media accounts if you know people who are eligible.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:56 pm

No I never said my vote is determined by EURO.

I have always advocated for the UK to be kicked out of the EU because of its disregards for EU law.

I have the misfortune of working in a border county , so I have dealing with pounds and Euros .


I am not a politician . I am practical and interpret laws.
Black life matters.

secret.simon
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:21 pm

Obie wrote:I have always advocated for the UK to be kicked out of the EU because of its disregards for EU law.
I advocate for the EU to be kicked out of the UK because of its disregard for UK law.
Obie wrote:I am not a politician . I am practical and interpret laws.
Neither am I. I am practical and follow politics. At last, something that we agree on :D
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:32 pm

After doing a bit of reading, the emergency brake is applied only to newcomers with David Cameron emphasysing that. Also the child benefit payments will start getting indexed in 2020. There is no mention about the no eu thingy but am assuming in this case it should be applied to new comers

Salem
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Salem » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:40 pm

nemerkh wrote:After doing a bit of reading, the emergency brake is applied only to newcomers with David Cameron emphasysing that. Also the child benefit payments will start getting indexed in 2020. There is no mention about the no eu thingy but am assuming in this case it should be applied to new comers
One would hope that, but as you say, it's a assumption, we'll have to wait and see.

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:43 pm

Well I have no problems with your political position . As an English man , that is if you are, I am very content for you to hold the position you hold.

What I found most troubling and annoying is when your political views moves into the realms of legal interpretations. This is the reason I was minded to refer to such views as views that are consistent with a Walter mitty character.

I found your legal interpretations so out of the ordinary with reality or within an acceptable perimeter of accepted norms, that I get most agitated when I read them.

Just to make it clear, I have absolutely no problems with your political views. I have full respect for them even when I am minded of your background in regards to your membership of this forums.

However I am most worried about your interpretation of international provision, in relation to the UK'S obligation under its international treaties.

Personally I take your views with a pinch of salt, but I noticed that some members are deeply anxious and worried, and this is actually the source of my agitation. .
Black life matters.

357mag
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by 357mag » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:00 pm

This amendment only affects a couple of hundred so its a bit petty, will it greatly reduce immigration numbers? I don't think so. I think it was stuck in to appease the Home Office after they got whupped on a couple of court cases, just my view.
The financial requirement is a different kettle of fish, figures I've seen are like 200,000 so it wouldn't surprise me if the Supreme court is not ahem influence by government agenda.
I am not a forum GURU, I am often wrong
Dont take any notice of anything I post, I'm getting old and havn't the foggiest what I'm talking about.

secret.simon
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:03 pm

Obie wrote:I an minded of your background in regards to your membership of this forums.
Could you clarify what you mean by this? If this thread is not an appropriate forum, perhaps a PM may be suitable.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

nyabs
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nyabs » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:32 pm

I personally think that EU immigrants who have established residence should be treated as UK citizens. That is if established residence means that they have attained permanent residence. It takes five years for an EU immigrant to establish residence in the UK. If they marry after they have established residence, then national immigration rules should apply. This is the same thing they introduced to student visa. They call it established presence. I might be wrong but I think we are missing a key word "Established". If you don't believe me, go get a dictionary and check what established means in this context. Also look for established presence and see if there is any coloration.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Wanderer » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:00 pm

Perhaps I'm one the few here who can remember when UK wasn't in the EU. It wasn't that bad.

Whilst I am generally in favour it, I wouldn't miss it, I like the freedom of movement in terms of no visas etc, UK is powerful enough to retain that anyway.

What I won't miss it the stupid Human rights impositions from Strasbourg or wherever, granting leave to all sorts of undesirables, attempting to give prisoners voting rights etc, common sense approach is needed.
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

crunchycracker
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by crunchycracker » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:05 pm

nyabs wrote:I personally think that EU immigrants who have established residence should be treated as UK citizens. That is if established residence means that they have attained permanent residence. It takes five years for an EU immigrant to establish residence in the UK. If they marry after they have established residence, then national immigration rules should apply. This is the same thing they introduced to student visa. They call it established presence. I might be wrong but I think we are missing a key word "Established". If you don't believe me, go get a dictionary and check what established means in this context. Also look for established presence and see if there is any coloration.
No established residence simply means they've exercised their treaty rights here. It has nothing to do with permanent residence.

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Casa
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Casa » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:07 pm

Wanderer wrote:Perhaps I'm one the few here who can remember when UK wasn't in the EU. It wasn't that bad.

Whilst I am generally in favour it, I wouldn't miss it, I like the freedom of movement in terms of no visas etc, UK is powerful enough to retain that anyway.

What I won't miss it the stupid Human rights impositions from Strasbourg or wherever, granting leave to all sorts of undesirables, attempting to give prisoners voting rights etc, common sense approach is needed.
I'm singing from the same hymn sheet Wanderer. Have I poor recall, or didn't we 'sign up' for free trade...not the EU we find ourselves part of now? :?
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

secret.simon
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:17 pm

Wanderer, you aren't the first and won't be the last to confuse the ECHR (European Convention on Human Rights) and the EU. They have nothing to do with each other, apart from the fact that all EU member states are obliged to be party to the ECHR.

The Council of Europe (not to be confused with either the European Council or the Council of the European Union, both of which are EU bodies) is a separate organisation, which is also based in Strasbourg, but which has 47 members states, including such outstanding exemplars of human rights as Russia (with apologies to your significant other) and Turkey. Indeed, the UK was a founding member of the Council of Europe.

The speech by Lord Mance that I referenced earlier contrasts the level of control the UK has over the ECHR vs that of the EU. Most importantly, the Council of Europe does not have legislative powers, merely the power to suggest.

The ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) does give judgments that to some may seem perverse, but I think it is good that they provoke discussion (my role on these forums). Crucially, it itself has held that it has no power to annul national legislation and that contracting parties undertake to follow its judgements.

The Convention is a part of UK law by the Human Rights Act and there is talk about replacing it with a British Bill of Rights (I hope they name it something else; we already had a Bill of Rights in 1688).

But just to reiterate, the EU and the ECHR are completely different organisations and should not be confused.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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