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New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, Zimba, Administrator

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ryuzaki
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by ryuzaki » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:42 am

How would this affect non-EU nationals who manage to get permanent residency in an EU country? Say I, a British citizen, moved to an EU country with better immigration rules and then my non-EU wife joined me and received some kind of permanent right to stay in that country. Could she then come to the UK with me, or would be I effectively locked out of my own country because my wife's right to stay in, say, Germany, doesn't give her to right to enter the UK permanently?

It really looks like Cameron is trying to talk to the UK here. If this happens I'll probably be forced to leave, taking my skills, experience and student debt with me.

itsmanu
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by itsmanu » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:16 pm

Not looking to muddy the water but thought this could be useful info.

Recently applied for Ireland visa for my non-EU family under Directive 2004/38/EC (Free Movement). Did not hear anything even after more than 4 weeks passed. I sent an email to find out whats going on and they replied with

"Due to the large volume of
applications of this type, the visa office is currently processing
applications received in May 2015. While every effort is made to process
these applications as soon as possible, processing times will vary, having
regard to the volume of applications, their complexity and the resources
available.

As you will appreciate, in order to be fair to all applicants, applications
are processed in order by date received in this office.

Kind regards,

Visa Customer Services
Visa Office, Dublin
Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service "

Now the question I have is

Can I travel to Ireland without visa and take my non-EU family with me and ask immigration desk to give entry clearance at the Ireland airport. I am EU citizen. My family does have valid schengen visa.

357mag
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by 357mag » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:52 pm

Think EU rules require they expediate the issue of visas for EEA family members , think the guidelines are something like 21 days. maybe a guru will be along soon with the right info.
If your non-EU family members need an entry visa, they should apply for one in advance from the consulate or embassy of the country they wish to travel to. If they will be travelling together with you, or joining you in another EU country, their application should be processed quickly and free of charge:
◾Countries which are members of the border-free Schengen area should issue visas within 15 days, except in rare cases, when the authorities should provide an explanation of their decision.
◾All other countries (Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Ireland, Romania, UK) should issues visas as quickly as possible.

Ireland is not in Schengen so it probably don't help. I doubt they will let you board a plane without a visa. In theory yes you could turn up at the border and ask to be let in but do you want to gamble that you might be turned back? Maybe contact Solvit and see if they can help/
I am not a forum GURU, I am often wrong
Dont take any notice of anything I post, I'm getting old and havn't the foggiest what I'm talking about.

itsmanu
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by itsmanu » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:22 pm

Even Ireland's own guide for their visa officers has clearly stated that it must be processed with in 4 weeks

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Fa ... 20citizens

but, I dont think they care to be very frank. I dont want to just land at the airport without visa but I am running out of time. Moreover what I have found about the actual reason for the delay does not give me confidence that they will process the visa that quickly.


fysicus
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by fysicus » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:30 pm

To those who still believe a NO (=Brexit) vote will trigger a second referendum:

The comparison with previous cases in Denmark or Ireland is wrong. In those cases the "wrong" result stopped the EU (temporarily) from progressing, and the re-vote (under slightly improved conditions for those countries) removed the blockade.

However, when the UK votes to leave in June, there will be a sigh of relief in many capitals. Of course, nobody will say it now in public, but behind closed doors you can be sure many will be happy to see the UK leave. After 40 years of only pushing the brakes, never the accelerator, London has no friends left in the EU.

Brexit does not stop the EU from progressing, it rather enables it to progress faster!

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:48 pm

I am inclined to agree with that to a large extent. Even a senior official at the EU mentioned that many states will be pleased to see the UK leave .

If David Cameron invokes Article 50, as he has promised, if the result is leave, then there is no turning back. UK will have to leave in 2 years . By June 24 2018, UK will no longer be bound by the treaties and will then have to negotiate it's bilateral arrangements.

I think that is the procedure, Cameron thinks that is the procedure. Cameron said it is flying bird to suggest another referendum, and I agree with him that a married couple don't file a divorce in the hope that their marriage will get stronger. It will be delusional, and only deluded couples will do that.
Black life matters.

cygnustrue
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by cygnustrue » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:49 pm

So, I have an interest case here, and I wonder how it would play out under the new "deal".

I came over to the UK on a Tier 5 from Australia. My then girlfriend (Dutch) then moved over a few months later. We then got married a few months later back in Australia. Finally, We applied for EEA1 and EEA2 after coming back to the UK.

So, in theory, I should be safe from the proposals since 1, I had legal right (2 yr temporary) to reside in the UK before I was married, and was residing in the UK, and 2, my wife only moved to the UK after we got married? In fact we couldn't claim that she was exercising treaty rights until she got a job after we got married...

This seems pretty arbitrary...

fysicus
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by fysicus » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:54 pm

and to those who still think free movement rights are gone:

In the Brussels agreement last week (18 february) there is no amendment of the Lisbon treaty, and no amendment of directive 2004/38.
The directive always had already a clause, saying that EU migrants should not become an unreasonable burden for the host member state's social security system. However, that has to be judged on a case by case basis, for each individual migrant taking into account the personal circumstances. The collective measures from the Brussels agreement are on legally very thin ice, to say the least. Cameron's 27 colleagues in Brussels may have allowed him to proceed in this way, whether the courts will agree is highly questionable. The law itself hasn't changed, so there is no reason why any court decision should change!

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:58 pm

Are you saying nothing will change in case we stay in the eu?

fysicus
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by fysicus » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:02 pm

yes, I am saying exactly that, with David Cameron on my side. He merely hopes that the dodgy benefits measures will deter new EU migrants, that's all

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:16 pm

fysicus wrote:yes, I am saying exactly that, with David Cameron on my side. He merely hopes that the dodgy benefits measures will deter new EU migrants, that's all
There will be changes. For sure there will be. Whether it will stand the test of time, remains to be seen.

People are free or will be free to do unlawful things. Whether the judicial authority will accept it, is yet to be seen.

The court of Justice will be bound to follow the precedent they set in past cases..
Black life matters.

fysicus
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by fysicus » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:31 pm

well, I may be was a bit strong in my statement, but when you do not depend on social benefits, almost nothing will change

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:23 pm

fysicus wrote:well, I may be was a bit strong in my statement, but when you do not depend on social benefits, almost nothing will change
You are generally correct. Your views aligned more are less with the proposals.
Black life matters.

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:53 pm

I Second that about social benefits, but what about the noneu spouse thingy

garry87
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by garry87 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:33 pm

its nothing change ? only change no benifits for new comers people from eu...i heard news today from pm its going on sky news he is in slough and said its nothing change to eu rights only no benifits from people who just come and apply benifits ..its still free movement..

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:15 am

Interesting survey.

Revealed: Two thirds of British voters are Eurosceptics – but they aren't convinced we should leave.

I always knew the British People, or people in England in particular are sensible, they care more about their economic situation, than their disdain for migrant.

In my view I will welcome both outcome. Can't wait to see the invocation of Article 50. It will be quite remarkable as it has never been invoked before. The EU will definitely make an example of the UK, so no other country will dear to follow suit.
Black life matters.

Petaltop
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Petaltop » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:52 am

Obie wrote: I always knew the British People, or people in England in particular are sensible, they care more about their economic situation, than their disdain for migrant.

They don't want to see their NHS destoyed.

The NHS has been left 'on its knees' by uncontrolled migration from the EU, a leading cancer expert will warn tomorrow.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... point.html

Obie wrote:In my view I will welcome both outcome. Can't wait to see the invocation of Article 50. It will be quite remarkable as it has never been invoked before. The EU will definitely make an example of the UK, so no other country will dear to follow suit.
1. The EU countries are well aware for sure, that their greatest challange if the UK leaves will be will be to save the Euro from freefall when one of their biggest contributors leaves. Apart from anything else, the UK attracts the biggest foreign investment in the block.

Brexit vote could turn UK into a 'safe haven' triggering EU disintegration, say Barclays

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... eu-disint/



If Deutsche Bank collapses, it’s taking the euro with it
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/if ... o-with-it/




2. And to stop the break-up of the already troubled and unhappy EU over, immigration, the migrant crisis, lack of a solution with the debt ridden countries and the Euro being based on what is best for Germany. Once one big contributor leaves, others may wish to bid a hasty retreat too.
Last edited by Petaltop on Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fysicus
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by fysicus » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:01 pm

I wonder what the Brexit advocates have in mind for the CTA (Common Travel Area with Ireland), and in particular the land border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.
Remember Iain Duncan Smith’s claim that Britain is more vulnerable to terrorist attack within the European Union...

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:04 pm

Well unfortunately petaltop, 60% of your compatriots, that is if you are a British of course holds contrary view.

Notwithstanding the fact that 2/3rds hold Eurosceptics views, most of them said they will vote to stay in.

I need not struggle with extrapolating what that means.
Black life matters.

fysicus
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by fysicus » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:06 pm

The NHS has been left 'on its knees' by uncontrolled migration from the EU, a leading cancer expert will warn tomorrow.
So what does this cancer expert think: let's send all the young, healthy, hardworking Poles home and let's get back all British pensioners from France and Spain? Imagine how the NHS would cope?

Perhaps he will also agree that most traffic accidents are caused by driving too slow. Because if you would have driven faster, you would not have been at the same place at the same time as the car you just crashed into...
Last edited by fysicus on Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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