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New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push, Administrator

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Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:19 pm

Obie wrote:I did not say 24 June 2017 , I said 24 June 2016 .

A day after the referendum.
I understood. I am selfishly worrying about the longer term, where those already in the EU may find they have lost their right of free movement.

There's also the prospect of utter chaos if the loss of rights affects those who have already entered on the basis of having them, and they switch from being legal residents to illegal workers. I know that wasn't done with the families of British-Irish dual nationals, but in those cases the dual national could always have renounced British citizenship if it didn't cost him his job.

secret.simon
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:20 pm

Richard W wrote:However, I don't have any hope that we can kill this proposal by voting to leave the EU. It has supporters, perhaps as misunderstood, in other members of the EU.
Richard W, did you mean to say that we can't kill this proposal by voting to remain in the EU? Logically, leaving will kill the whole freedom of movement idea, not just a minor detail.

EDIT: Further reflection and your latest post has helped clarify matters. What you fear (correct me if I am wrong) is that even if the UK were to leave the EU, freedom of movement within rEU will still be imperilled by these ideas which have arisen as a part of the UK-EU deal.
Richard W wrote:
Obie wrote:I believe it will be business as usual on the 24th June.
What about 24 June 2017?

I think what Richard W means to suggest is that events will overtake us and the EU in the coming year and that it is likely that freedom of movement will die a natural death whether or not we remain a part of the EU.

@Alex1128, I think Obie means they are that meaningless as to make no difference. And for once, I agree.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:32 pm

Well I don't think they are meaningless. Mr Cameron has most of what he wanted. He got his deal and I am happy for him.

I only have difficulty accepting that some of these proposed changes to secondary legislation will have effect on primary legislation like the treaty or the decision of the CJEU .

The CJEU has special status in the Treaty and it decision has special status in the European communities Act 1972 .

I wonder how in law this proposal can have the effect of overturning Metock, Jia.

So strange. I aspire to study it more . But so far I will not say I am overly worried.

I make no secret of my view on immigration.

I am a global minded person, who strongly believe that there we must be in a borderless world were people can move freely and join their families and live their lives happily.

I am not a dearly beloved, and I believe all human are equal.

I am of the view that most of this talk of immigration is centred around race and culture .

If a million aussie or Canadian or Kiwi were migrating to UK , we possibly will not be having this debate.
Judge not, and you will not be judged.

Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:35 pm

alex1128 wrote:
Obie wrote: British people will go to the polls on the 23rd.

I believe it will be business as usual on the 24th June.
You think those laws will not go into effect after the referendum?
The rules for decisions are unlikely to go into effect until Monday 27 June. This is when primary purpose will appear in EEA decisions under one clarification. The other clarification is most likely to have no immediate influence - it seems likely to defend the 'centre of life' requirement in Surinder Singh cases.

The massive loss of freedom of movement rights will require legislation, in particular, acceptance by the European Parliament. There may well be debate on it. It will take months, and then the Home Office will have to work out how to foul their transposition up and sneak further restrictions in. They could have fun working out the rules for young non-EEA children born to dual national British by descent couples in Germany who married before ever going to Europe.

Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:48 pm

Obie wrote:The CJEU has special status in the Treaty and it decision has special status in the European communities Act 1972 .

I wonder how in law this proposal can have the effect of overturning Metock, Jia.
Overturning Metock is simple in principle. Metock is based on the 'Citizens' Directive', Directive 2004/38/EC. That is legislation, and legislation can be changed.

Surinder Singh is different. It is based on the treaties, and these are not being changed. Surinder Singh says that any EU citizen can move, with his family, around the EU for work. There are probably more details, but as far as I am aware, it says nothing about entering the EU in the first place.

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:58 pm

I beg to differ .

The CJEU ruled that accompanying or Joining a Union Citizen has to be interpreted as covering a union citizen who found a family after entering a member state.

The court proceed on the bases of its case law, that there should be no hindrance on the treaty rights of a Union citizen , and that a union citizens will be deterred from moving, or having moved will be fettered from residing , if having resided they are unable to reside with the family they found in the new memberstate.

The court reason focused on a policy in community law, which is ensuring the protection of family life of national of the memberstate in order to eliminate the exercise of the primary rights of the union citizen.

I accept that the court was dealing with directive 2004/38EC, but it was at the same time reading this in accordance with the treaty provision on elimination of barriers to free movement.
Judge not, and you will not be judged.

secret.simon
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:04 pm

Obie wrote:I make no secret of my view on immigration.

I am a global minded person, who strongly believe that there we must be in a borderless world were people can move freely and join their families and live their lives happily.

I am not a dearly beloved, and I believe all human are equal.

I am of the view that most of this talk of immigration is centred around race and culture .
A borderless world has not existed since the evolution of the modern concept of a nation-state, which started with the Peace of Westphalia, which ironically dismantled most of the Holy Roman Empire, the last Pan European state.

If one wants a world without boundaries, one gets a world like that inhabited by ISIS, with feudal, tribal and familial loyalties, not national ones.

The concept of freedom of movement arose from the destruction and the ashes of WWII. There was a feeling of belonging to a common Europe, with common values. And I see it myself when I travel across Europe, when my tour guide in Prague is a half-Spanish, half-Dutch (no, he is not related to Nick Clegg) student attending an Erasmus programme in a German university, but living in and commuting from the Czech Republic. I have been to the European Parliament and Commission as a part of a university study group where British members of staff lament the lack of interest of British people in jobs and opportunities in Europe, except perhaps in retiring to Spain.

I doubt the founders of the EU in the 1960s and 1970s would have expected their treaty text to mean that half-brothers and nephews of somebody married to an EU citizen would get rights to reside across the EU, based on a dependency at some point in the past.

Some people worship the written word of the law as if it were Gospel, not realising that the law is worth nought if people do not respect it. And respect arises from a broad understanding of the circumstances.

It is worth remembering that what has been made can be unmade. The President of the EU Parliament has highlighted that this deal can be unmade by the EU Parliament or the CJEU. But so can the whole EU be unmade. I would suggest to them not to be haughty, but humble.

It is also worth remembering that the fortune for any political right swings like a pendulum. And the further to one side the pendulum is dragged, the more violent the swing against is generated.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:11 pm

I am not undertaking an academic exercise with you Simon.


I am merely expressing my views and desires, which I am sure you appreciate, I have the right to .


I know and accept the basis of the creation of the European Communities and then the European Union.

As much as I admire your effort in setting it out, I am not convinced it was necessary for my purpose.
Judge not, and you will not be judged.

pelitezaki
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by pelitezaki » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:02 pm

Do you think this will affect the current applications for residency by non EU spouse of EU citizen currently at the home office? and when can we expect these laws to come into effect? as I understand legislation would need to be passed and so on.

nyabs
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nyabs » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:25 pm

Nobody really knows how these new proposed regulations are going to be rolled out but it is very unlikely that those who have already applied under the current regulations will be affected. The whole proposal is thoroughly confusing

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:47 pm

Will this apply to people already in the uk? From my knowledge you cant backdate a law?
We have been here for 8 yrs (noneu&eu spouse) on our second eea2 how can they just refuse us??

pelitezaki
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by pelitezaki » Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:17 pm

nemerkh wrote:Will this apply to people already in the uk? From my knowledge you cant backdate a law?
We have been here for 8 yrs (noneu&eu spouse) on our second eea2 how can they just refuse us??
its is a worry as I am EU and 2 little ones and my husband of 10 years non Eu recently moved to UK and we recently applied for his residency for first time in Dec and now all this. Hope it doesn't affect us as a family.

mkhan2525
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by mkhan2525 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:41 pm

MM income requirement case for sponsoring a Non-EU national spouse will be heard in the Supreme court from Monday 22-24 Feb.

If the requirement is abolished or reduced to meet the requirement of the minimum wage then HO may not implement the changes on SS route since there would be no need to follow this route to bring over a spouse.

We should get a decision on the case by Autumn well before the new rules on SS are implemented.

Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:11 pm

secret.simon wrote:
Richard W wrote:However, I don't have any hope that we can kill this proposal by voting to leave the EU. It has supporters, perhaps as misunderstood, in other members of the EU.
Richard W, did you mean to say that we can't kill this proposal by voting to remain in the EU? Logically, leaving will kill the whole freedom of movement idea, not just a minor detail.

EDIT: Further reflection and your latest post has helped clarify matters. What you fear (correct me if I am wrong) is that even if the UK were to leave the EU, freedom of movement within rEU will still be imperilled by these ideas which have arisen as a part of the UK-EU deal.
My expectation is that the UK will remain in the EEA, whatever the outcome of the referendum.

Of course, if we are in the EEA but not the EU, then the UK can act like Liechtenstein. The UK can suddenly declare an emergency and only allow people in to reside in accordance with UK rules. It will be fine for people to work according to EEA rules, so long as they can afford to commute. In the mean time, UK citizens will still be able to fully exercise their treaty rights in the EEA plus Switzerland less Liechtenstein.

omonile
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by omonile » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:41 pm

Just wondering if the new rule will affect status quo of Permanent residency application?

Obie
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:51 pm

I think it will be close to absurdity and outrageous , if UK citizens were free to work and live in other countries and other citizens are not free to work and live here.

Opinion polls, if they are true and correct , suggest as much as 55% of UK citizens want to live , work and claim benefits freely in Europe, but don't want European citizens to do the same.

I will find such a situation quiet bewildering , that citizens of the EU could be subjected to discriminating system whilst UK citizens are walking in Copenhagen or Hague or Berlin or Copenhagen, like everything is normal, the citizens of these nation will be treated as dogs in England.

I find this thought wholly incomprehensible and deeply disturbing.
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secret.simon
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:55 pm

The LSE has published an overview of the options of life after death.

Life after BREXIT: What are the UK’s options outside the European Union?

My overview of the various possible models is below.

The Norwegian/EEA model has the same disadvantages as full membership of the EU and no advantages.

The Swiss model, where the EU (28 members) and Switzerland (26 cantons) negotiate as equals is anathema to EU officials, who are used to laws applying automatically.

The UK may of course go commando (go it alone), in which case it would likely be subsumed into the NAFTA trade zone (currently US, Canada and Mexico). That is focussed on trade, but not free movement of people (Can you imagine Donald Trump and all those Mexicans? That would be fun).

Alternatively, the EU could offer the UK something on the lines of the Association Treaty with Turkey, which allows for free trade without free movement of people. They are unlikely to because there are more than enough people who would want to take up that offer for their own country (The FN-largest party in France, the AfD-third largest in Germany, the governing parties in most of Eastern Europe).

Personally, I agree with what I interpret are Richard W's fears; freedom of movement in the EU will be dead in the next five years, with or without a Brexit.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:14 pm

The EU will survive. Without free movement which is the foundation of the EU , there can be no EU. This is the founding principle of EU. The Refugee crisis will get better, Russia is putting pressure on Assad and EU feemovement principles will thrive again.

I am more concerned for UK..The UK is clearly on borrowed times.

When I see the polls that more Scott want to be in the EU than in the UK, it makes me wonder that this referendum is not just about UK in EU , but the survival of UK as a whole.

55% of Scott threaten to vote to leave the Union if they are forced out of the EU against their will. 60% of Scott has told pollster that they wish to stay in the UK.

Scotland makes up a 1/3 of the land mass of the Great Britain, has the trident , contribute more to the UK per head than any other UK region and has the Oli reserve in the North Sea. This is more of a problem for the UK than leaving the EU.

Scott will not sit back and shut up if they are taken out against their wishes. It just will not happen.

UK is facing it most testing times, since the demise of the empire.
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Wanderer » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:04 am

Obie wrote:The EU will survive. Without free movement which is the foundation of the EU , there can be no EU. This is the founding principle of EU. The Refugee crisis will get better, Russia is putting pressure on Assad and EU feemovement principles will thrive again.

I am more concerned for UK..The UK is clearly on borrowed times.

When I see the polls that more Scott want to be in the EU than in the UK, it makes me wonder that this referendum is not just about UK in EU , but the survival of UK as a whole.

55% of Scott threaten to vote to leave the Union if they are forced out of the EU against their will. 60% of Scott has told pollster that they wish to stay in the UK.

Scotland makes up a 1/3 of the land mass of the Great Britain, has the trident , contribute more to the UK per head than any other UK region and has the Oli reserve in the North Sea. This is more of a problem for the UK than leaving the EU.

Scott will not sit back and shut up if they are taken out against their wishes. It just will not happen.

UK is facing it most testing times, since the demise of the empire.
UK is stronger than you think, it largely controls the banking World, and that's what drives all this.

Scott of the Antarctic, a tragedy but basically an Epic Fail, Admunsen beat him. I suspect Scotland's posing would be more of a Captain Oates situation, "I have to to leave now, I may be some time......"
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by 357mag » Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:06 am

Does anyone think that bit might have been stuck in because the home office got beat by the Mc Carthy case? or the OB ruling? bit of bitchyness from the home office?
OK it looks nasty for the good people trying to get their loved ones with them using EU rules, maybe if the financial requirement thing was not so insurmountable for many then there would be no need.
But...there are legal precedents that cant be stomped on, but this agreement is also only binding if the referendum says we stay in, talking to people I think the vote will be we leave. The only hope I have is that the appeal on the 22nd will kill the financial requirement but if not then a change of government in a couple of years might see better treatment for brits to be with their families.
All a bit heavy stuff for my old brain but my heart and soul prays for those struggling with these nasty rules. May your families be with you soon.
I am not a forum GURU, I am often wrong
Dont take any notice of anything I post, I'm getting old and havn't the foggiest what I'm talking about.

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