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New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, Zimba, Administrator

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Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:08 am

nyabs wrote:Your answer is very misleading. Those people who have already got their family permits will by law have acquired parmanent residence after five years provided they meet all the current requirements. To suggest that they will suddenly be required to meet the new regulations after they have already lawfully resided here for the required five years simply does not add up. That is why we have transitional laws.
Who says they would have remained legal? Could not the UK argue that the Metock decision was wrong, and that they would only honour it only as far as achieved permanent residence was concerned. (Revoking permanent residence could cause additional havoc with the operation of British nationality laws - the current law already makes it difficult to establish whether a child born in the UK is British.) So, three years of legal residence before plus two years after the law change = 2 years of overstay, plus possibly a charge of illegal working.

I am wondering why the government isn't clamping down on unlawfully present EU nationals. I can only think that it's because its not illegal to overstay after one's exemption from the requirement of leave expires. Enforcement in Northern Ireland would be particular awkward, because EU nationals can stay legal by taking a stroll across the border every two months, and there's no reliable record of the border crossing. I'm not sure where the burden of proof would be.

ryuzaki
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by ryuzaki » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:48 am

Thanks Richard, finally a useful post among all the political stuff.
Richard W wrote:
Lord Bates wrote:This is still a matter for negotiation. The European Commission has proposed bringing forward a legislative proposal to reverse the Metock judgment and prevent non-EU nationals from acquiring free movement rights simply by marrying an EU national. Instead, they will be subject to the domestic immigration controls of the first Member State they enter. In the UK, this means that they will need to meet language and income requirements.
Note the use of the word first. While this will make the EEA route more difficult for those using real jobs, it will preserve free movement within the EEA. It remains to be seen which countries will raise their immigration requirements. It's also possible that Lord Bates has no real idea of what is planned.

On the basis of Lord Bates' answer, Ryuzaki, Nemerkh and I will be fine for moves to a second EEA country.
Sadly I think you are reading too much into that one word. The EU statement sounds like it just wants to take away Surinder Singh route completely, and Lord Bates is either clueless or just didn't choose his words very carefully. We can hope though, as there are many EEA countries with better immigration rules than the UK, but of course it does mean we need to find work there.

Either way, it is going to get much harder to use the Surinder Singh route route after June. I've decided to abandon ship before it sinks and look at moving to another EU country as soon as possible. Hopefully even if the UK leaves the EU there will be a way for ex-pats to stay, because I can't imagine the UK wanting to take 2 million people back, many of them elderly and all of them unemployed.

alphagear
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by alphagear » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:58 am

When will these laws most likely come into effect?

June?

Starnes
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Starnes » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:28 pm

ryuzaki wrote:Thanks Richard, finally a useful post among all the political stuff.
Richard W wrote:
Lord Bates wrote:This is still a matter for negotiation. The European Commission has proposed bringing forward a legislative proposal to reverse the Metock judgment and prevent non-EU nationals from acquiring free movement rights simply by marrying an EU national. Instead, they will be subject to the domestic immigration controls of the first Member State they enter. In the UK, this means that they will need to meet language and income requirements.
Note the use of the word first. While this will make the EEA route more difficult for those using real jobs, it will preserve free movement within the EEA. It remains to be seen which countries will raise their immigration requirements. It's also possible that Lord Bates has no real idea of what is planned.

On the basis of Lord Bates' answer, Ryuzaki, Nemerkh and I will be fine for moves to a second EEA country.
Sadly I think you are reading too much into that one word. The EU statement sounds like it just wants to take away Surinder Singh route completely, and Lord Bates is either clueless or just didn't choose his words very carefully. We can hope though, as there are many EEA countries with better immigration rules than the UK, but of course it does mean we need to find work there.

Either way, it is going to get much harder to use the Surinder Singh route route after June. I've decided to abandon ship before it sinks and look at moving to another EU country as soon as possible. Hopefully even if the UK leaves the EU there will be a way for ex-pats to stay, because I can't imagine the UK wanting to take 2 million people back, many of them elderly and all of them unemployed.
Here's the white paper: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... ssible.pdf

Specifically mentions the following: 'In addition, non-EU nationals who are married to or who marry EU nationals already living in a host Member State will need to meet the domestic immigration rules of the first EU country they reside in.'

giorgosa
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by giorgosa » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:16 pm

There are married couples that get married 9 years before moving to UK. Although I understand that UK wants to close the door to non-genuine marriages (and this is the correct thing to do), there should be some criteria (length of marriage is the obvious one) that should leave the process as it is now.

I don't care this to change, as I'll be covered both for language and income tests but there should be some common sense in this.

Furthermore, and I know that it is a bit early for this question, what is going to happen for EEA/EEA family members currently on EEA1/EEA2? In theory I need 18 months to get permanent residency, I am the EU national, working in the UK since day 1 of coming here.

chriskv1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by chriskv1 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:53 pm

giorgosa wrote:There are married couples that get married 9 years before moving to UK. Although I understand that UK wants to close the door to non-genuine marriages (and this is the correct thing to do), there should be some criteria (length of marriage is the obvious one) that should leave the process as it is now.

I don't care this to change, as I'll be covered both for language and income tests but there should be some common sense in this.

Furthermore, and I know that it is a bit early for this question, what is going to happen for EEA/EEA family members currently on EEA1/EEA2? In theory I need 18 months to get permanent residency, I am the EU national, working in the UK since day 1 of coming here.
But haven't UK already started taking steps to close it's doors to non genuine marriages ? All marriages go through an investigation now before being allowed to happen when it's between a non eea and eea national. Any marriages that happened overseas go through further suspicions from the home office. Why is it that UK wants to somehow be privileged. I don't see Germany throwing a fit . Please someone enlighten me .
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding.
Mahatma Gandhi

E&OE. I'm not a legal professional.

liksah
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by liksah » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:58 pm

Bingo! Thanks for posting that whitepaper Starnes.

That makes things a whole LOT more clearer. I had posted earlier in this thread that the idea is to prevent illegals from easily regularising themselves in the EU through marriage (because EU law says you cannot expel spouses under almost any circumstance). Basically we are taking:

who had no prior lawful residence

to mean:

Non-EU nationals who never lived in the EU.

But this does not make any sense as anyone, regardless of where they lived before, should have the right to family life. And how does previously taking a course or working for 6 months in the EU suddenly grant you better rights than 99% of other non-EU spouses? That makes absolutely no sense.

EU citizens should not be unfairly penalised for marrying a non-EU person (who never lived in the EU) and effectively 'lose' their free movement rights.

who had no prior lawful residence

probably means:

were not lawfully resident at some point earlier

The whitepaper clarifies this (emphasis mine):
The European Commission Declaration makes clear that it will propose new secondary legislation “in order to exclude, from the scope of free movement rights, third country nationals who had no prior lawful
residence in a Member State before marrying a Union citizen or who marry a Union citizen only after the Union citizen has established residence in the host Member State”. This means that non-EU nationals who have been living in the UK illegally will no longer be able to evade our immigration controls by marrying an EU national. In addition, non-EU nationals who are married to or who marry EU nationals already living in a host Member State will need to meet the domestic immigration rules of the first EU country they reside in. In the UK that includes an income test and English language requirement.
It looks like the intention is to exclude:
- A non-EU national who was previously expelled from any member state from marrying an EU national (outside the EU) to re-gain entrance under EU laws. In this case the stricter (depending on the country..) domestic immigration laws would apply.
- A non-EU national who is currently present illegally in a member state (the UK, for example) should not be able to marry an EU national in the UK and regularise themselves.

Basically close Surinder Singh route for people with prior illegal stays and only let them reunite under national law (and perhaps not even that if national law does not permit them to)

This makes total sense. If you ever stayed illegally in the EU, you will not be entitled to free movement and will have to take a tougher route to immigration.

This is the only way these new measures make some sense... I don't know if the new measures will be drafted in the spirit of the above whitepaper, that remains to be seen, but this does make the intention a lot clearer.

Hamza2013
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Hamza2013 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:10 pm

Hi All,

My this post is related to possible free movement changes mentioned in media and white paper. After reading all around the boards, blogs, websites i havent not come accross any possible changes which is proposed to dependent parents of EU national exercising free movement rights. There are only 2 points regarding immigartion:

• commits to new legislation to prevent illegal migrants from using marriage to an EU
national living in the UK to avoid our tough domestic immigration rules; and will mean
that non-EU nationals who marry EU nationals living in the UK will also need to meet
our immigration rules; and

• ensures greater freedom for the UK to act against the threat of crimes being
committed by EU nationals moving around the EU by preventing those who pose a
threat from coming into the country and making it easier to deport them if they have
been living in the UK.

Based on above i assume the rules are going to be tighter for spouses as compared to dependent parents.

Please share if there is any additional information regarding dependent parents changes.

Thanks in advance,

ryuzaki
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by ryuzaki » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:32 pm

Starnes wrote:
Here's the white paper: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... ssible.pdf

Specifically mentions the following: 'In addition, non-EU nationals who are married to or who marry EU nationals already living in a host Member State will need to meet the domestic immigration rules of the first EU country they reside in.'
Thanks. So what does this mean exactly? I could go to Ireland, bring my wife over on a temporary visa and then return to the UK? Seems like that is what they want to stop.

I'm guessing they mean she would need permanent residency rights for Ireland. That could be tricky but at least bypasses the UK rules on language and income, the two big sucking points for many people.

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:43 pm

So in view of the clear document, i shoukd be ok right?
Noneu went to Latvia in 2001 as student, married in 2006, uk 2007 both on our 2nd eea now till 2018. 2 children and a mortgage. No benefits.

Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:01 pm

Just make sure your wife remains a worker until you get your permanent residence.

However, there remains the issue of what rules apply to the 2nd EU state a couple reside in. You, Nemerkh, should be OK because you are already in your 2nd EU state. (What happens if England leaves the EU is another question.)

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:12 pm

Richard W wrote:Just make sure your wife remains a worker until you get your permanent residence.

However, there remains the issue of what rules apply to the 2nd EU state a couple reside in. You, Nemerkh, should be OK because you are already in your 2nd EU state. (What happens if England leaves the EU is another question.)
My is working but like 25-30 hrs a week on "bank shifts" in the nhs. Was employed full time on contract we cant do this due to child care. We do however have csi and we are self sufficient as i am employed fully

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:59 pm

'In addition, non-EU nationals who are married to or who marry EU nationals already living in a host Member State will need to meet the domestic immigration rules of the first EU country they reside in.'
Can someone please explain how this would effect me? I'm married and living with my EU spouse in the US and he has never lived in the UK or EU (He is a dual national). Would we still be able to move together to the UK with the family permit?

Starnes
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Starnes » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:04 am

shnooks1 wrote:'In addition, non-EU nationals who are married to or who marry EU nationals already living in a host Member State will need to meet the domestic immigration rules of the first EU country they reside in.'
Can someone please explain how this would effect me? I'm married and living with my EU spouse in the US and he has never lived in the UK or EU (He is a dual national). Would we still be able to move together to the UK with the family permit?
I am still trying to make sense of that one. In my case we are in the same situation, but already moved over here (in full accordance with current EU regulations) 2 years ago.

I am guessing (and I am most certainly a legal layman here!) that you and your spouse may have to meet the financial requirements for sponsoring a non-UK, non-EEA national which means an annual income of £18 600 (more with children). Your spouse would also likely need to have that job and income over here before you are eligible.

If my guess is right, it might be best you take your decision to come here before that referendum. Even if we fall under the new law immediately (though I think it may only apply to newcomers) we are both legally working here which means our joint income should be fine for meeting that minimum income threshold.

Ultimately, someone on these forums like Obie would probably give a much more solid opinion on the matter.

shnooks1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:28 am

Starnes wrote:
shnooks1 wrote:'In addition, non-EU nationals who are married to or who marry EU nationals already living in a host Member State will need to meet the domestic immigration rules of the first EU country they reside in.'
Can someone please explain how this would effect me? I'm married and living with my EU spouse in the US and he has never lived in the UK or EU (He is a dual national). Would we still be able to move together to the UK with the family permit?
I am still trying to make sense of that one. In my case we are in the same situation, but already moved over here (in full accordance with current EU regulations) 2 years ago.

I am guessing (and I am most certainly a legal layman here!) that you and your spouse may have to meet the financial requirements for sponsoring a non-UK, non-EEA national which means an annual income of £18 600 (more with children). Your spouse would also likely need to have that job and income over here before you are eligible.

If my guess is right, it might be best you take your decision to come here before that referendum. Even if we fall under the new law immediately (though I think it may only apply to newcomers) we are both legally working here which means our joint income should be fine for meeting that minimum income threshold.

Ultimately, someone on these forums like Obie would probably give a much more solid opinion on the matter.
I am so afraid of that. I hope you're wrong and I hope everything works out for you as well. I'm also wondering if I get the permit before the referendum would I still be eligible to use it as planned. I know nothing is certain at the moment but I will greatly appreciate any thoughts on this. We have been planning to move soon but probably only after the referendum, so I'm extremely worried.

Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:07 am

Starnes wrote:I am guessing (and I am most certainly a legal layman here!) that you and your spouse may have to meet the financial requirements for sponsoring a non-UK, non-EEA national which means an annual income of £18 600 (more with children). Your spouse would also likely need to have that job and income over here before you are eligible.
I hope EU-national children wouldn't raise the threshold; British children don't.

One nasty feature that I hope will be removed is that the EU citizen currently has to be settled here. That means be British, Irish or have PR.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:35 am

Forgive my ignorance. Does the new laws change the nature EU nationals practice their EU rights in the UK? For instance if the new laws come to efect, EU nationals will still be considered practicing their treaty rights by being self sufficient with CSI right?

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nyabs » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:16 am

No one knows the precise implications at this stage in regards to David Cameron's EU deal. However we know that the deal is an international law therefore legally binding (all the 28 members states agreed with it). We also know that the UK might vote to leave the EU in the upcoming referendum in which case article 50 will be started where by UK will have to leave the EU after 2 years of renegotiation and no deal is reached. However a deal with the EU might be reached sooner. Within those two years, things will remain as they currently are and after that, it's not clear what will happen to the free movement of people but it's more likely to survive a Brexit (this was hinted by Cameron in parliament). It is possible that Cameron's EU deal will be challenged in court and be rejected by the EUCJ but that is not guaranteed it. For those who have already applied under the current regulations or are exercising their rights under the current terms, there is a possibility of a transitional law which means that only new applicants will be affected (You can't be charged against a law that didn't exist when you supposedly broke it. Even this statement doesn't make sense. I also don't think that those families currently exercising their rights under the current free movement will suddenly be asked to fulfill the new requirements). There will also be transitional agreement if UK votes to leave the EU and EU immigrants will be covered by the transitional laws (otherwise there will be legal nightmares). But Europe is not going to remain the same. Things are happening right now that are going to significantly change the world as we know it. Live one day at a time

shnooks1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:54 am

nyabs wrote: I also don't think that those families currently exercising their rights under the current free movement will suddenly be asked to fulfill the new requirements).
What do you suppose would happen to me if I receive a family permit before the referendum but we both couldn't move until after June? In order for me to stay my spouse would still need to fulfill the new requirements because he was not exercising treaty rights before the new law was created correct? I'm mostly just desperate to know if we would be affected by the changes at all in my (what seems to be) a rare situation. (See above post)

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:30 am

nyabs wrote:No one knows the precise implications at this stage in regards to David Cameron's EU deal. However we know that the deal is an international law therefore legally binding (all the 28 members states agreed with it). We also know that the UK might vote to leave the EU in the upcoming referendum in which case article 50 will be started where by UK will have to leave the EU after 2 years of renegotiation and no deal is reached. However a deal with the EU might be reached sooner. Within those two years, things will remain as they currently are and after that, it's not clear what will happen to the free movement of people but it's more likely to survive a Brexit (this was hinted by Cameron in parliament). It is possible that Cameron's EU deal will be challenged in court and be rejected by the EUCJ but that is not guaranteed it. For those who have already applied under the current regulations or are exercising their rights under the current terms, there is a possibility of a transitional law which means that only new applicants will be affected (You can't be charged against a law that didn't exist when you supposedly broke it. Even this statement doesn't make sense. I also don't think that those families currently exercising their rights under the current free movement will suddenly be asked to fulfill the new requirements). There will also be transitional agreement if UK votes to leave the EU and EU immigrants will be covered by the transitional laws (otherwise there will be legal nightmares). But Europe is not going to remain the same. Things are happening right now that are going to significantly change the world as we know it. Live one day at a time
Whereas your statment makes total sense i hope ots gonna be like that. Live one day at a time is always a good advice however when you got a life and kids going everyday life becomes a little twitchy thinking of what might happen. Will hope for the best thanks.

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