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New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, Zimba, Administrator

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ohara
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by ohara » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:45 am

I don't really know what the hell I'm talking about so go easy on me, but is it possible that the other 28 member states agreed with Cameron's renegotiation proposals because they knew they'd never hold up in the European court? :o

Starnes
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Starnes » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:25 am

shnooks1 wrote:
nyabs wrote: I also don't think that those families currently exercising their rights under the current free movement will suddenly be asked to fulfill the new requirements).
What do you suppose would happen to me if I receive a family permit before the referendum but we both couldn't move until after June? In order for me to stay my spouse would still need to fulfill the new requirements because he was not exercising treaty rights before the new law was created correct? I'm mostly just desperate to know if we would be affected by the changes at all in my (what seems to be) a rare situation. (See above post)
I think you would need to fulfil the new requirements, but I am not sure if there are many people that know an exact answer to that question.

I would say you would be in the strongest position if you can get here before the referendum and have started an application for your residence card (again, as early as possible and before the referendum). You probably would not receive the residence card before the referendum but at least you would have made the application before any changes were made to the law.

That residence card should probably be the same as what I have, which confirms freedom to work and live here without restriction and it should be good for 5 years, so long as your spouse exercises his rights.

I would then focus on making sure you met the financial restrictions for sponsoring a spouse, just in case. You should be able to use your combined income to determine this amount, since you would both be legally present and able to work, so it should not be overly challenging.

shnooks1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:52 am

We haven't found a flat yet so I highly doubt we would be able to apply for the RC in time and it would be a huge risk we aren't willing to make. I just don't understand why I wouldn't be allowed to exercise treaty rights if my EU spouse has never lived in the UK or EU.

Starnes
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Starnes » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:26 am

shnooks1 wrote:We haven't found a flat yet so I highly doubt we would be able to apply for the RC in time and it would be a huge risk we aren't willing to make. I just don't understand why I wouldn't be allowed to exercise treaty rights if my EU spouse has never lived in the UK or EU.
I think it is all conjecture at this point until we witness the final results of the referendum. Looking at this line:

'In addition, non-EU nationals who are married to or who marry EU nationals already living in a host Member State will need to meet the domestic immigration rules of the first EU country they reside in.'

I believe that can be reworded in both our cases to (for simplicity):

'Non-EU nationals who are married to EU nationals already living in a host Member State will need to meet the domestic immigration rules of the first EU country they reside in.'

Now, while you are not both presently here, it could stand to reason that the second you arrive your spouse will be an EU national living in the UK and at that time you would be subject to domestic immigration rules of the UK as your spouse will already be living in the UK.

Hopefully it is not as stringent as this, but I cannot see what the purpose of that line is if it is not interpreted in that manner. It is clear in lines above that there will be different rules for illegal immigrants marrying EU nationals, so it cannot be related to that.

ryuzaki
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by ryuzaki » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:44 am

shnooks1 wrote:We haven't found a flat yet so I highly doubt we would be able to apply for the RC in time and it would be a huge risk we aren't willing to make. I just don't understand why I wouldn't be allowed to exercise treaty rights if my EU spouse has never lived in the UK or EU.
Because the UK is full of xenophobic UKIPers and Tory voters who are hell bent on setting some arbitrary figure on immigration numbers as a way of keeping dirty foreigners out.

At this point, I think it's time to abandon ship. The UK has made it clear that it doesn't want its citizens to marry foreigners. Maybe we can claim refugee status in the EU somewhere. Only half kidding. How would a British person claiming asylum on human rights grounds (right to a family) in the EU get on after a Brexit?

The best option seems to be to get out of the UK as quickly as possible, before the referendum. No matter what the result is, you will be better off if you are covered by existing rules than whatever they bring in afterwards.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Wanderer » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:14 am

ryuzaki wrote:
shnooks1 wrote:We haven't found a flat yet so I highly doubt we would be able to apply for the RC in time and it would be a huge risk we aren't willing to make. I just don't understand why I wouldn't be allowed to exercise treaty rights if my EU spouse has never lived in the UK or EU.
Because the UK is full of xenophobic UKIPers and Tory voters who are hell bent on setting some arbitrary figure on immigration numbers as a way of keeping dirty foreigners out.

At this point, I think it's time to abandon ship. The UK has made it clear that it doesn't want its citizens to marry foreigners. Maybe we can claim refugee status in the EU somewhere. Only half kidding. How would a British person claiming asylum on human rights grounds (right to a family) in the EU get on after a Brexit?

The best option seems to be to get out of the UK as quickly as possible, before the referendum. No matter what the result is, you will be better off if you are covered by existing rules than whatever they bring in afterwards.
Think it's more the constant abuse of the rules and the system by migrants that's the real issue behind this tightening up, just look in the Tier 1/2 forums at all the tax fidders who thought they'd got away with it being caught out now.
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

robsters
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by robsters » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:48 pm

Hello

read most of this thread we were in Dublin and re entered the UK in september last year using the Surinder Singh route route, we claimed for the UK EU residence card and got it by december 2015, my wife also gave birth in uk the same month as well so our new born son is registered british citizen now as well. my question is my wife was given the 5 year residence card now whatever the outcome of the referendum could they take this card away from my wife? my concern is if we have exit vote i fear they will say i need to be earning the 22.5k a year which for me i would fail to meet at this point but looking for the job paying that or more just incase. this has started to worry myself and my wife. any information or ideas would be helpful, either way i am glad we got in before this kicked off but i feel we are not completely safe yet. sadly my wife never be able get british passport without giving up her nationality as her country of indonesia does not allowed dual nationalship :( she has no intension to give up her own passport in 5 years so either way i can see at some point the future things will get complicated to stay in england for the long term.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:34 pm

Also wondering if worst comes to worse, what happens to the eu/noneu couples' lroperty like houses/mortgages etc..

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by secret.simon » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:43 pm

ohara wrote:I don't really know what the hell I'm talking about so go easy on me, but is it possible that the other 28 member states agreed with Cameron's renegotiation proposals because they knew they'd never hold up in the European court? :o
I think so too. That is what I meant when I said that the deal was negotiated in bad faith.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:43 pm

ohara wrote:I don't really know what the hell I'm talking about so go easy on me, but is it possible that the other 28 member states agreed with Cameron's renegotiation proposals because they knew they'd never hold up in the European court? :o
The rule that first entry is determined by national rules seems fairly robust, even if it may need to be tweaked. A lot of states were opposed to Metock. It's more a case of Cameron pushing on an open door.

The wording in the declaration looks dodgy, but I think a lot of people may be hurt as collateral damage.

There's nothing in the statements as to intended law about prior illegal residence. The 2006 version of the 2006 EEA Regulations had, for getting a family permit, a requirement for prior legal residence in an EEA state, and that is a guide as to what was wanted. The form in the declaration is a scatter gun. Some of the intended effects may be achieved by those with prior illegal residence being unable to obtain lawful residence.

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:54 pm

If to take a step back and hink about it. They cant just backdate the new laws and apply them them to say noneu nationals who started their processes as in eea2/3s already. As this process leads to eea3/4 & pr. This whole process is obviously a settlement solution for us. Settlement as i. Living, working, kids going to school and having a mortgage. Whereas i totally agree they should crack down on convinience marriages and shan marriages, they cant just put a blank rule on everybody!
Mind you this situation has no precedents to my mind and is a tricky one, but you cant just rip a family from their roots and say goodbye can you?

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:05 pm

Richard W wrote: A lot of states were opposed to Metock.
Other than Denmark and Ireland and to a lesser extent UK, can you please enlighten me on the rest of these many countries that opposed Metock are?
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robsters
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by robsters » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:43 pm

robsters wrote:Hello

read most of this thread we were in Dublin and re entered the UK in september last year using the Surinder Singh route route, we claimed for the UK EU residence card and got it by december 2015, my wife also gave birth in uk the same month as well so our new born son is registered british citizen now as well. my question is my wife was given the 5 year residence card now whatever the outcome of the referendum could they take this card away from my wife? my concern is if we have exit vote i fear they will say i need to be earning the 22.5k a year which for me i would fail to meet at this point but looking for the job paying that or more just incase. this has started to worry myself and my wife. any information or ideas would be helpful, either way i am glad we got in before this kicked off but i feel we are not completely safe yet. sadly my wife never be able get british passport without giving up her nationality as her country of indonesia does not allowed dual nationalship :( she has no intension to give up her own passport in 5 years so either way i can see at some point the future things will get complicated to stay in england for the long term.
any ideas?

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:44 pm

Obie wrote:
Richard W wrote: A lot of states were opposed to Metock.
Other than Denmark and Ireland and to a lesser extent UK, can you please enlighten me on the rest of these many countries that opposed Metock are?
Possibly I'm reading too much into the list of those who submitted observations in the Metock case, but the list reads: Czech Republic, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Cyprus, Malta, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and the UK. According to Wikipedia, the judgement caused law changes in at least Austria, Cyprus, Czech republic and Slovakia, Denmark, Germany, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Lithuania and the United Kingdom.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:09 am

As to Robsters case, he may be safe. He's in his second EU state, so he's not definitely targeted. The issue is whether what we face is the change as described in the declaration or the more specific change that national law should apply for the first member state resided in. The latter makes most sense, but we just don't know how the law will be worded, or how member states will transpose it.

Member states are allowed to be more generous than the directives require. For example, family members of dual British/Irish citizens who were already wrongly benefiting from the directive were allowed to continue to benefit.

On a matter of detail, note that the financial requirement depends on the number of non-British family members, so the birth of children in the UK does not at present increase the requirement. This would not necessarily be so if unsettled EU nationals were allowed to bring family members into the UK, though EU-citizen family members are exempted by the current directives.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by robsters » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:58 am

Richard W wrote:As to Robsters case, he may be safe. He's in his second EU state, so he's not definitely targeted. The issue is whether what we face is the change as described in the declaration or the more specific change that national law should apply for the first member state resided in. The latter makes most sense, but we just don't know how the law will be worded, or how member states will transpose it.

Member states are allowed to be more generous than the directives require. For example, family members of dual British/Irish citizens who were already wrongly benefiting from the directive were allowed to continue to benefit.

On a matter of detail, note that the financial requirement depends on the number of non-British family members, so the birth of children in the UK does not at present increase the requirement. This would not necessarily be so if unsettled EU nationals were allowed to bring family members into the UK, though EU-citizen family members are exempted by the current directives.
what happens if its BREXIT vote to leave the eu will the 5yr residence card issued in the uk be taken away?

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by tebee » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:54 am

robsters wrote:.........

what happens if its BREXIT vote to leave the eu will the 5yr residence card issued in the uk be taken away?
It's very, very unlikely, conceivably possible, but if we get to that point I'm not even sure the UK is a country I would want to live in.

So far it's always been principal that rights that were given, according to the law or the interpretation of the law at that time, are retained, even if the law or it's interpretation subsequently changes. As far as I'm aware there is no legal obligation to do this, but it seems like the decent and compassionate thing to do.

For you to lose these rights in any case the UK must have left both the EU and the EAA and not negotiated any free trade agreement of it's own before departing.

If the UK starts unilaterally rescinding the residence rights of EU citizens living there, I'm sure EU will do the same to the British citizens living there and the UK will be flooded with angry, mostly elderly former expats who have been forced to return, leaving behind jobs and property.

I can't see this scenario happening in any decent society, but with the current wave of xenophobia been driven by the media who knows? The Foreign Devil is a convenient scapegoat to divert the populace's attention away from their other woe's. The rise of the Front National in France and Donald Trump must give pause for thought that there might one day be a UK ruled by a coalition of the raving wing of the conservative party and UKIP.

Of course, one other point is even if the great unwashed public votes for BREXIT the government is not obligated to do so.....
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by ohara » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:24 am

I am somewhat in support of stopping the practice of people who are in the UK illegally using the EEA family permit to legitimise their stay. It does seem absurd. I believe it is also unfair that EEA citizens can sidestep UK immigration law to bring their non-EEA family members in to the UK much easier than British citizens can, although this is probably more a fault of the UK laws than the EEA ones. It is clear that the UK government do not want people to bring their non-EEA family into the UK.

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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Obie » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:30 am

ohara wrote:I am somewhat in support of stopping the practice of people who are in the UK illegally using the EEA family permit to legitimise their stay. It does seem absurd. I believe it is also unfair that EEA citizens can sidestep UK immigration law to bring their non-EEA family members in to the UK much easier than British citizens can, although this is probably more a fault of the UK laws than the EEA ones. It is clear that the UK government do not want people to bring their non-EEA family into the UK.
Unfairness does not come in. It is a rule of the club. Just like a British in Denmark , Netherlands or Germany will not need to do integration.

I believe the immigration status of the family member is immaterial, so long as the relationship is genuine.

I believe that issue does not affect you, so it means little to you if it was changed.

But if you fell in love with a non - national without status and get a child with him or her, I am sure your views will be different .
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by ohara » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:39 am

Obie wrote:I believe the immigration status of the family member is immaterial, so long as the relationship is genuine.
I agree with you absolutely. I was talking more about people who are using relationships of convenience to abuse the system.

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