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New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, Zimba, Administrator

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wegiwegi
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Switzerland

Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by wegiwegi » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:27 am

ohara wrote:
I agree with you absolutely. I was talking more about people who are using relationships of convenience to abuse the system.
Well, my wife's RC was refused as they said there was not much proofs of me exercising my treaty rights, but a hint was made if there is a new application, to expect to attend a marriage interview, because our is a convenience one,( they say ) because in April 2014 a visit visa for her was refused, to what I had to change all my plans, went to pick her up to her country, we flew to mine, got married in August 2014 and got into the UK in September that year.

We live since then together, family and friends know it is geniune, but HO has other ideas, for sure on a 500 questions interview, a few questions will be different between us, I still do not know which niece or nephew goes with which sister of hers, I asked her yesterday which was the christmas present I gave her because I forgot, if things like that make them believe it is a convenience marriage, so be it.
If still together in 3 years, she will have two EU passports, and maybe all of this will be a thing of the past.
Just gathering all the paperwork needed to make a fresh application and see what happens next.
Timeline:
Fourth application sent 21.07.17
HO received 24.07.17
Paid on 25.07.17
Biometrics 23.08.17
COA received 07.09.17
Passports received 07.09.16
Status: Decided on 10.11.17
Documents returned 13.11.17 dated 09
RC 13.11.17 dated 09

shnooks1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:46 am

Please clarify how the supposed changes would affect an EU citizen who lives in the US and married an american. The EU spouse has never lived in Europe. Would the couple still be able to move together to any EU country (in our case Ireland) under movement rights? This is also assuming they have no interest in moving to the UK at all.
I previously asked the same question with relevance to moving to the UK, but I am still confused if it would affect people in our situation if we decided to move elsewhere.

Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:11 am

shnooks1 wrote:Please clarify how the supposed changes would affect an EU citizen who lives in the US and married an american. The EU spouse has never lived in Europe. Would the couple still be able to move together to any EU country (in our case Ireland) under movement rights?
If the US spouse has never lived in Europe, there would be no reverse discrimination. The movement would be made under local immigration law. Now, if there is no change in local law, and the EU spouse had never lived in Europe, there would be nationality-based restrictions for the couple to move to the EU directly. For example, a Frenchman moving with his non-EU spouse spouse to the UK would have to come in on the points-based system, and an Englishman moving to France would need a work permit. Essentially, an EU citizen exercising his free movement rights does not necessarily initially have any right at all to family reunification with a non-resident, non-EU family member. After a period of residence (5 years in the UK), the EU citizen may often bring non-EU members over under local law.

logical_1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by logical_1 » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:31 am

OK, so after reading all this I'm starting Surinder Singh route in 2 weeks,what are the possible outcomes/sceninarios if the non-eu family members receives the host member states residence card before the referendum?
Did u sell your soul for a mere stack?

tebee
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by tebee » Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:06 am

Richard W wrote:
shnooks1 wrote:Please clarify how the supposed changes would affect an EU citizen who lives in the US and married an american. The EU spouse has never lived in Europe. Would the couple still be able to move together to any EU country (in our case Ireland) under movement rights?
If the US spouse has never lived in Europe, there would be no reverse discrimination. The movement would be made under local immigration law. Now, if there is no change in local law, and the EU spouse had never lived in Europe, there would be nationality-based restrictions for the couple to move to the EU directly. For example, a Frenchman moving with his non-EU spouse spouse to the UK would have to come in on the points-based system, and an Englishman moving to France would need a work permit. Essentially, an EU citizen exercising his free movement rights does not necessarily initially have any right at all to family reunification with a non-resident, non-EU family member. After a period of residence (5 years in the UK), the EU citizen may often bring non-EU members over under local law.
There are no changes to free movement for the EU spouse - it's the non-EU partner would have to comply with local laws.
“I speak the truth not so much as I would, but as much as I dare: and I dare a little more as I grow older.

shnooks1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:31 am

tebee wrote:
Richard W wrote:
shnooks1 wrote:Please clarify how the supposed changes would affect an EU citizen who lives in the US and married an american. The EU spouse has never lived in Europe. Would the couple still be able to move together to any EU country (in our case Ireland) under movement rights?
If the US spouse has never lived in Europe, there would be no reverse discrimination. The movement would be made under local immigration law. Now, if there is no change in local law, and the EU spouse had never lived in Europe, there would be nationality-based restrictions for the couple to move to the EU directly. For example, a Frenchman moving with his non-EU spouse spouse to the UK would have to come in on the points-based system, and an Englishman moving to France would need a work permit. Essentially, an EU citizen exercising his free movement rights does not necessarily initially have any right at all to family reunification with a non-resident, non-EU family member. After a period of residence (5 years in the UK), the EU citizen may often bring non-EU members over under local law.
There are no changes to free movement for the EU spouse - it's the non-EU partner would have to comply with local laws.
So if we wanted to move to Ireland I, as the non-eu spouse would need a visa to stay past 90 days has if my eu husband doesn't exist?

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:17 am

tebee wrote:
Richard W wrote:
shnooks1 wrote:Please clarify how the supposed changes would affect an EU citizen who lives in the US and married an american. The EU spouse has never lived in Europe. Would the couple still be able to move together to any EU country (in our case Ireland) under movement rights?
If the US spouse has never lived in Europe, there would be no reverse discrimination. The movement would be made under local immigration law. Now, if there is no change in local law, and the EU spouse had never lived in Europe, there would be nationality-based restrictions for the couple to move to the EU directly. For example, a Frenchman moving with his non-EU spouse spouse to the UK would have to come in on the points-based system, and an Englishman moving to France would need a work permit. Essentially, an EU citizen exercising his free movement rights does not necessarily initially have any right at all to family reunification with a non-resident, non-EU family member. After a period of residence (5 years in the UK), the EU citizen may often bring non-EU members over under local law.
There are no changes to free movement for the EU spouse - it's the non-EU partner would have to comply with local laws.
Hello
But how do you its gonne work out if the noneu spouse can accompany the eu spouse as a family member in the eea.

shnooks1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:20 am

I understand now thank you for explaining. However, after re-reading this thread I think what liksah said makes more sense and I hope he/she is correct:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/search ... sf=msgonly

"who had no prior lawful residence
probably means:
were not lawfully resident at some point earlier"

The reason why I'm so confused is because I don't understand the reasoning of why I wouldn't share my husband's freedom of movement rights just because I never lived in the EU but what liksah pointed out makes perfect sense. If I was previously living in Europe illegally, then it would be understandable as to why I would not be entitled to any movement rights even though I am married to an EU citizen.
Does anyone else think this may just be a case of poor wording?

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:30 am

I agree with you totally. This explanation is the one that makes most logical and ethical sense.

Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:21 pm

tebee wrote:
Richard W wrote:For example, a Frenchman moving with his non-EU spouse spouse to the UK would have to come in on the points-based system, and an Englishman moving to France would need a work permit.
There are no changes to free movement for the EU spouse - it's the non-EU partner would have to comply with local laws.
I hope I've selected the part Tebee disputes.

I was specifically referring to moves from outside the EU, with the non-EU spouse never having resided in the EU. The point about the visas etc. is that they allow dependants to apply to accompany them at the offset. Otherwise, the EU spouses in these combinations need to reside in the host country on their own first, which indeed they would still be free to do by exercising their treaty rights.

There may be other visas that can be used. For example, the non-EU spouses may be able to get visas in their own right. It's also possible that there are other disabilities I've overlooked. For example, I'm assuming that foreign EU-citizens are allowed to obtain the work-related visas.

Now, there are exceptions. For example, an Irishman and his spouse can move to the UK as freely as a Briton, but with the changes, no more freely.

Richard W
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by Richard W » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:44 pm

shnooks1 wrote:I understand now thank you for explaining. However, after re-reading this thread I think what liksah said makes more sense and I hope he/she is correct:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/search ... sf=msgonly

"who had no prior lawful residence
probably means:
were not lawfully resident at some point earlier"

The reason why I'm so confused is because I don't understand the reasoning of why I wouldn't share my husband's freedom of movement rights just because I never lived in the EU but what liksah pointed out makes perfect sense. If I was previously living in Europe illegally, then it would be understandable as to why I would not be entitled to any movement rights even though I am married to an EU citizen.
Does anyone else think this may just be a case of poor wording?
Unfortunately, this is incompatible with the UK statement (both parliamentary question and white paper) that a non-EU spouse's entry will be governed by the national laws of the first member state they enter. In particular, the spouse of a Frenchman will have no more right to come to the UK than the spouse of a Briton. Actually, it now seems that the former will have less right if the Frenchman does not have permanent residence in the UK.

Shnooks1, you wouldn't share your husband's freedom of movement rights because they are now being restricted to movement within the EEA+. It is still possible that once settled in the EEA, you may be able to enjoy those rights. On this point, the wording shown so far is extremely unclear. For example, you might be able to enter Italy with a view to settlement, and then promptly enter the UK under free movement. However, according to the words of the declaration, you would be permanently denied the rights.

Now, there may be technical work-arounds, but it seems that they will be difficult for those with prior unlawful residence. Failed or bogus asylum seekers are likely to be particularly hard hit.

mia777
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by mia777 » Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:06 pm

I've been reading through this thread... all very interesting stuff.

Everyone's talking about spouses... what do these new provisions mean for unmarried partners of EEA citizens? Perhaps there isn't a clearcut answer but opinions are welcome.

I got a masters degree in the UK and met an EEA citizen during that time. After my two year post-study visa, I applied using an EEA2 application which was granted and I'm halfway through the five years. I've got a business here now (i.e. a life) and while it's hard to imagine being thrown out or not being allowed back in, I'm trying to get an idea of the potential scenarios that could play out in the next year or two.

Thanks.

giorgosa
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by giorgosa » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:10 pm

In this page you'll be able to find an explanation of the proposed changes.

https://www.jcwi.org.uk/blog/2016/02/22 ... -migration

I keep this point: 'The changes as put forward are unlikely to impact EU citizens who can demonstrate that they entered into a relationship before moving to a host state, such as the UK.'

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:50 pm

Non-EU nationals who had no prior lawful residence in a Member State before marrying an EU citizen, or

- Where a marriage is entered into after an EEA citizen has established residence in the host Member State.



Phewwww.
So am a noneu was a student in latvia then we got married wih my Latvian wife and came to uk.
Should be fine thenright? As i was lawfully staying in latvia and we married there before coming to UK

shnooks1
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by shnooks1 » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:54 pm

Thank you Richard. I wasn't thinking about that.
giorgosa wrote: I keep this point: 'The changes as put forward are unlikely to impact EU citizens who can demonstrate that they entered into a relationship before moving to a host state, such as the UK.'
I highly doubt they would bother giving new entries a chance when they could just honor resident card/eea applications which were in the process of being approved before the referendum. If they even do that. I just hope if anything happens the deal would be thrown out and no one would have to worry.

tebee
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by tebee » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:49 am

Richard W wrote:
tebee wrote:
Richard W wrote:For example, a Frenchman moving with his non-EU spouse spouse to the UK would have to come in on the points-based system, and an Englishman moving to France would need a work permit.
There are no changes to free movement for the EU spouse - it's the non-EU partner would have to comply with local laws.
I hope I've selected the part Tebee disputes.

I was specifically referring to moves from outside the EU, with the non-EU spouse never having resided in the EU. The point about the visas etc. is that they allow dependants to apply to accompany them at the offset. Otherwise, the EU spouses in these combinations need to reside in the host country on their own first, which indeed they would still be free to do by exercising their treaty rights.

......
What the Declaration says is
...... to exclude, from the scope of free movement rights, third country
nationals who had no prior lawful residence in a Member State before marrying a Union citizen or
who marry a Union citizen only after the Union citizen has established residence in the host
Member State. Accordingly, in such cases, the host Member State's immigration law will apply to
the third country national

It only refers to the third country national - nothing in there affects the EU citizens rights to live and work in any member state without a visa.

I can't honestly see what makes you think this will change, if they happen to be married to a non-EEA - indeed, such a change would gut free moment and would never be allowed to be sneaked in through the back door like this.
“I speak the truth not so much as I would, but as much as I dare: and I dare a little more as I grow older.

tebee
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by tebee » Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:57 am

giorgosa wrote:In this page you'll be able to find an explanation of the proposed changes.

https://www.jcwi.org.uk/blog/2016/02/22 ... -migration

I keep this point: 'The changes as put forward are unlikely to impact EU citizens who can demonstrate that they entered into a relationship before moving to a host state, such as the UK.'
But surely the bit
Non-EU nationals who had no prior lawful residence in a Member State before marrying an EU citizen
Would exclude many such people ?
“I speak the truth not so much as I would, but as much as I dare: and I dare a little more as I grow older.

giorgosa
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by giorgosa » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:27 am

Well, I think we have to understand why they didn't choose this:
'Non-EU nationals who had no prior residence in a Member State before marrying an EU citizen'
but they chose this:
'Non-EU nationals who had no prior lawful residence in a Member State before marrying an EU citizen'

If there were going with the first then this would be a problem.

My interpretation is that Non-EU nationals having issues with UK immigration law in the past won't be able to get residence using EEA regulations once they are married to EU citizens. If you consider that all these come under a paragraph called 'Abuse of free movement' and ' Sham marriage', then I think that this won't impact EU nationals and families.

nemerkh
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by nemerkh » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:34 am

giorgosa wrote:Well, I think we have to understand why they didn't choose this:
'Non-EU nationals who had no prior residence in a Member State before marrying an EU citizen'
but they chose this:
'Non-EU nationals who had no prior lawful residence in a Member State before marrying an EU citizen'

If there were going with the first then this would be a problem.

My interpretation is that Non-EU nationals having issues with UK immigration law in the past won't be able to get residence using EEA regulations once they are married to EU citizens. If you consider that all these come under a paragraph called 'Abuse of free movement' and ' Sham marriage', then I think that this won't impact EU nationals and families.

Really hope youre right

tebee
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Re: New EU deal: Free-movement rights gone?

Post by tebee » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:42 am

Yes, but they did not say "already illegally resident " so the current wording also catches those who have never been resident - so if you go work in a country outside the EU, meet someone there, you can't automatically return with them.

My own theory is they have left the wording a little vague so all can read their own meaning into it and come to an agreement.

I think "legally resident" has a specific meaning in UK law and may not mean the same to other counties. My crystal ball foresees court cases of the meaning of these words unless they clarify them more.
“I speak the truth not so much as I would, but as much as I dare: and I dare a little more as I grow older.

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