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Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal?

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push, Administrator

Obie
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by Obie » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Well Kent and Newcastle are 2 regions in England .

Glasgow is a city in Scotland and Northernlreland is a province that makes up 1 of the 4 regions of the UK.

So you cannot equate the Scottish region , with 2 places in England. Not a good analogy I'm afraid. .
Judge not, and you will not be judged.

secret.simon
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by secret.simon » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:01 pm

ryuzaki wrote:Maybe the best result then would be for the UK to vote out, and the EU to ditch the proposals. Then I move to Scotland which becomes independent and re-joins the EU.
I too would welcome a "Leave" victory, but for different reasons. The EU only makes realistic concessions when faced with a No vote in referendums. The Danish got substantial concessions after rejecting the Maastricht Treaty in a referendum in 1992 and the Irish got some concessions rejecting the Treaty of Nice (not a nice treaty) in 2000. In both cases, the No vote was in the region of 53-55%.

So, if the UK, the EU's third largest economy, votes to leave (not just threaten, but actually votes to leave), the EU will offer substantially more concessions, particularly in the field of immigration and there will be another referendum.

Like the Home Office, I am judging future intentions by past behaviour.

As regards Scotland leaving, I have posted in another thread (here and here) why Scotland is unlikely to leave the UK even in the event of a clean break with the EU. The main reason is that Scotland leaving the UK will destroy so many smaller countries in the EU (Spain and Catalonia, Italy and its North, both halves of Belgium) that their governments would veto an application from Scotland to join. And just one veto is sufficient to stop it from joining.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

Obie
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by Obie » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:06 pm

Perhaps you should do some background reading on devolution, Northern Ireland assembly and Scottish parliament, and first minister. The different power and functions.

Perhaps we could have further debates after your reading.
Judge not, and you will not be judged.

secret.simon
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by secret.simon » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:12 pm

Obie wrote:Perhaps you should do some background reading on devolution, Northern Ireland assembly and Scottish parliament, and first minister. The different power and functions.

Perhaps we could have further debates after your reading.
You might be surprised at my current reading.

Devolution is just that, it is not federating. Specific powers are devolved by the Westminster Parliament, as they are to county councils and London boroughs and constitutionally they can be revoked as well. It may be politically outrageous, but constitutionally valid.

I invite you to diversify your reading beyond law into a wider world view.
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Obie
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by Obie » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:21 pm

I was not being rude. I was simply making a suggestion which it appears you have thrown in my face again.

I was merely seeking to advise you that save for few matters, Scotland is a country of its own. It controls it's education , health , justice system and control its own budget in those areas.

Comparing Kent and Newcastle to England and Scotland is not a good analogy.

If you advise me to study something I will not taking as an insult as learning is a process that commences from the day we are born to the day we die.

I thank you for suggesting that I cease from reading too much law and do other thing. I will surely rake your advise on board and do that.

Please be assured that my suggestion was not intended to cause any offense.
Judge not, and you will not be judged.

secret.simon
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by secret.simon » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:32 pm

I did not intend to cause offense either.

I was merely pointing out that given the arguments that I have posted on these forums, it may be apparent that I am not unaware of the ways in which the governance of England and Scotland vary. I have a fair bit of understanding of the history and politics of the various parts of the UK. It is both a field that I have studied academically and a personal hobby. Indeed, it is my hobbyhorse that I bore people with.

My advice was only to suggest that an addition of political and economic developments in the UK and the EU may help give a broader understanding to the hitherto overtly legalistic tones of your advice.

I hope you don't "rake my advise" too hard. I doubt my advice can stand much torture. :D
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

Obie
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by Obie » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:54 pm

Thanks for your advise.

Suffice to say that I have sufficient knowledge in the matter to which I expressed a view. Needless to say I would not have expressed my views otherwise.
Judge not, and you will not be judged.

Wanderer
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by Wanderer » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:58 pm

I always find it odd Simon that there is not way of acquiring English, Scottish or Northern Irish nationality, for example, some one born in Wales is both Welsh and English, but some who naturalised can only be British. So I can see where you are coming from, seems the UK was some unique citizenship structure that doesn't correspond with any other.

But then again, Wales is only a Province, not sure what NI is, Scotland and England are two countries joined by an Act of Union, I'm thinking similar to USSR where one could be both Russian and Soviet.

I'm gonna read up!
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

noajthan
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by noajthan » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:03 pm

Wanderer wrote:But then again, Wales is only a Province ...
Try saying that in the bars of Ponty or Blaenau Ffestiniog.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by Wanderer » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:48 pm

noajthan wrote:
Wanderer wrote:But then again, Wales is only a Province ...
Try saying that in the bars of Ponty or Blaenau Ffestiniog.
I know - I did two six month contracts for DVLA in Swansea (Abertawe).....
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

Obie
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by Obie » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:08 pm

Wales is not a province . Northern Ireland may well be.

Of all the nations that makes up UK only Northern Ireland has never been a nation of its own.

Wales was a cletic nation until it was annexed by England in the 16th Century by the English and incorporated into England, but it once was an independent nation.
Judge not, and you will not be judged.

Wanderer
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by Wanderer » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:39 pm

Obie wrote:Wales is not a province . Northern Ireland may well be.

Of all the nations that makes up UK only Northern Ireland has never been a nation of its own.

Wales was a cletic nation until it was annexed by England in the 16th Century by the English and incorporated into England, but it once was an independent nation.
Yes, been reading, NI is a Province, Wales is a Principality, not sure of the difference.

Also Southern Ireland was part of the UK until 1922, and if I remember my history lessons NI became part of the Republic and was also part of Ireland for three days in 1922, before they partitioned off. Boxing Day rings a bell.

Funny too we have English (and Welsh) law, and Scottish Law, and English (and Welsh) Companies, and Scottish ones separate. Also NHS similar.

Interesting stuff....
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

secret.simon
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by secret.simon » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:45 pm

The Soviet Union was an acknowledged federation (The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) and was in many ways similar to the EU.

The EU indeed is traveling in the same direction of travel as the United States, which started off as a very loose confederation of states (witness the Articles of Confederation), each of which had its own citizenship (the descendants of the Marquis de Lafayette successfully claimed US citizenship on the basis that he was granted Maryland citizenship before the formation of the US) and has developed into a much closer union.

Whether that is the direction that we in the UK want to be traveling in is the question we will answer in the EU referendum. Hopefully people will decide one way or the other for better reasons that the value of the euro one gets for one's vacation.

The United Kingdom is a different situation altogether, again with both Scotland and Northern Ireland being special cases.

Scotland merged with England in 1707 after being financially devastated by the Darien Scheme, inspite of their modern reputation for financial rectitude. It retained its judicial & legal system, its distinct church hierarchy ( a huge deal in those days) and its own education system (mainly because schools in those days were managed by the Church and the church hierarchy was separate). The '15 and '45 Jacobite rebellions led to stringent laws against Scottish nationalism (everything from tartans to the Gaelic language was proscribed). The arrival in 1822 of George IV in Scotland and his dressing up in tartan kilts relaxed the rules gradually. After that period, the Scots were as involved in the British Empire as the rest of the British. Even as late as the 1979 devolution referendum, only 32.9% of the Scottish electorate supported devolution. It is only Tony Blair who stoked the fires of Scottish nationalism by creating a Scottish Parliament.

Northern Ireland is British by choice. It's Assembly recently voted to return powers to Westminster. From a political science point of view, its system of government (a form of consociationalism) is very interesting and to the best of my knowledge, unique in the Commonwealth, though examples exist elsewhere.

Wales has been integrated into the English legal system since atleast the Statute of Rhuddlan. Culturally as well, the volume of English people moving to Wales over the period of centuries has also affected the identity of Wales to a much greater extent that say either Ireland or Scotland.

As an aside, from a titular point of view, Scotland and Ireland have been kingdoms while Wales has always been a Principality. Cornwall of course has a historic claim to being the first (and hence seniormost) Duchy, with Lancaster being a close second.

In my opinion and observation, the white indigenous people in the UK are far more likely to identify themselves as English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish, while people with ethnic origins outside these isles are more likely to identify themselves as British. That is true even of people that I know whose familes have lived in a particular part of the UK for generations. There are exceptions, notably in Scotland (Humza Yousaf readily springs to mind), but that is a broad general observation.

Why that is the case is for people here to tell me. :D

Perhaps a solution, a halfway house, is the concept of belonger status, which is something that holders of British Overseas Territories citizenship would be familiar with. It allows for an overarching citizenship while also retaining some sense of belonging to a specific region.

That is of course at odds with the European ideal of free movement and not being attached to a specific place, but there you go.

@Wanderer, I was only surprised that you had not intervened earlier. Don't get me started next time.
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by secret.simon » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:56 pm

Obie wrote:Wales is not a province . Northern Ireland may well be.
The United Kingdom does not have the concept of provinces.

Calling them nations may have implications in international law.

The Danish via media was to refer to the Greenlanders as "people", as opposed to either "nation" or "country".
Wanderer wrote:Also Southern Ireland was part of the UK until 1922, and if I remember my history lessons NI became part of the Republic and was also part of Ireland for three days in 1922, before they partitioned off. Boxing Day rings a bell.
It was for one day in 1922, 7th December, a part of the Irish Free State. The Irish Free State from 1922 to 1936 was a Dominion and not a Republic. Its status between 1936 and 1949 is unclear/debatable. Only in 1949 did it unequivocally become a Republic.

Northern Ireland was, as Ulster, a "province" of Ireland. That was a colloquial expression and had no legal basis.
Last edited by secret.simon on Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by Wanderer » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:57 pm

@SS, you know ur stuff, fascinating info!!

My Partner, Russian, considerers herself now she has naturalised as British, as English, despite her first living with me in Scotland, which is odd.....
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

secret.simon
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by secret.simon » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:58 pm

I can be lethally boring in real life :)
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Wanderer
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by Wanderer » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:04 pm

secret.simon wrote:I can be lethally boring in real life :)
Bet ur rubbish at quiz night in the pub cos you don't know which football tam scored the first ever Football League goal....

(Kenny Davenport, for Bolton Wanderers at the Pikes Lane Ground 07/09/1888) - one day after Jack the Ripper murdered his second victim.....
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by secret.simon » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:18 pm

That is so true. Football bores me to tears, as do most sports.I enjoy most forms of music, but don't ask me to learn it. And I haven't got a TV at home. So, I suck at references to TV programs. So, it is true, I am the worst person to add to your team on pub quiz night. My team invariably comes last. :cry:

Returning to the earlier topic of citizenship, a common British citizenship was in fact created by a judicial decision rather than any Act of Parliament. Calvin's Case in 1608 was the basis of the legal concept of British Subject, which lasted broadly until 1948. It broadly stated that anybody owing allegiance to the same sovereign, although in right of different countries, was not an alien in any of his other dominions.
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by 357mag » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:11 am

"The Commission intends to adopt a proposal to complement Directive 2004/38 on free movement of Union citizens in order to exclude, from the scope of free movement rights, third country nationals who had no prior lawful residence in a Member State before marrying a Union citizen or who marry a Union citizen only after the Union citizen has established residence in the host Member State. Accordingly, in such cases, the host Member State's immigration law will apply to the third country national."

Something that bothers me about that which does not seem to have been touched on in this thread is that it is all referencing married couples. Got to be married before going to the host state.

It makes no mention of durable relations, I'm thinking the wording creates a bar against couples who choose not to marry or for some reason can't marry.

The concept of DR is recognised even in National law applications for a visa which allows unmarried couples. Unmarried couples are currently only "extended family members" when it comes to applying for a visa to a host state. Looking at the proposal the only way a DR partner could get into the host state is going to be to use their national law, they would no longer be extended family members.

Bulgaria does not recognise unmarried couples as a legal entity (I think its an anti gay thing), to get my partner in she currently needs to apply for a type D visa as a "family member", Bulgaria then accepts her as if we are brother and sister so family. If she comes in on say a visitor visa she cannot subsequently apply for a residence permit. Looking at the proposal we are going to be excluded from the scope of freedom of movement.
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Re: Non-EEA spouses excluded from EEA-route under EU-UK deal

Post by ryuzaki » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:52 am

Being only a draft I would assume that the intent is to write a final text that includes DR.

The bit about third country nationals with no prior lawful residence in a Member State is the most worrying part. It closes off a large part of the EEA route.

It appears that you would have to find an EEA country that you can get your non-EEA partner a spouse visa for (so for example a country where there are no language requirements or income requirements), rather than just a much easier short term visa. Well, I suppose it depends how you define residence... In Ireland, for example, you can get a >90 day visa to visit family. Does that count as "residence"?

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