UK EU referendum confirmed for summer 2016

ohara wrote:

alvarez0306 wrote:I am now required to apply for permanent residency first, wait one year after receiving the permanent residence certificate, and then apply for British citizenship. Basically the earliest I am able to officially apply for British citizenship will be may 2017

You have almost certainly acquired permanent residence (you don't apply for it) already, and in the worst case scenario you will only need to wait until February 2016 until you have held it for 12 months. I have read online that being in compulsory education (primary/secondary school) counts towards PR also. If this is true, you will have held PR for a very long time!

You have two options and both are good:

1) Call UKVI and ask them to confirm whether being in compulsory education counts towards PR clock. If it does, complete the EEA(PR) application and submit it immediately.

2) If the above fails, complete the EEA(PR) application on the basis of exercising treaty rights as a worker for the period February 2010 to February 2015. Wait until a week or two after the date you started working as a police officer in Feb 2010 and then submit the EEA(PR).

In both cases, once you receive the document certifying permanent residence, you will be able to submit the naturalisation application immediately. ACT FAST! The EEA(PR) can take up to 6 months and naturalisation....well you've seen the timelines!

Thanks for your reply ohara. I have already applied for permenent residency in November 2015, on the basis of exercising my treaty rights by working from February 2010-February 2015. But I provided loads of evidence which covered up to September 2015 just to be on the safe side. As far as I am aware I should successfully get this permanent residency certificate around may time and then I'll have to wait one year from receiving that certificate when I am able to apply for citizenship.
In relation to the education thing counting towards pr, I sincerely doubt that the home office are that generous to allow this

http://www.housing-rights.info/EEA-chil ... cation.php

Also, have a look at the latest version of AN Booklet. It includes the following paragraphs:

If you are a national of a country which is a member state of the EEA or Switzerland, or the
family member of such a person, you will automatically have permanent residence status
after exercising EEA free movement rights in the UK for any continuous period of 5 years
ending on or after 30 April 2006. You should apply for a permanent residence card to prove
that you hold that status before applying for citizenship.

But remember that, unless you are married to or the civil partner of a British citizen, you
should normally have held permanent resident status for 12 months before applying for
naturalisation. This means that you may need to wait until you have been in the United
Kingdom for 6 years before you can apply. When you apply for a permanent residence
document the evidence that you supply for your EEA(PR) application must be for a 5 year
period that ended at least a year before you want to apply for citizenship.

I had not seen this before I sent my EEA(PR) in. Thankfully I sent evidence of 6 years exercising treaty rights anyway. The text also implies that the naturalisation application processing team have a system in place which allows them to check the date on which you acquired PR. So no need to wait a year after getting the document. I will be applying immediately when I get mine.

ohara wrote:http://www.housing-rights.info/EEA-chil ... cation.php

Also, have a look at the latest version of AN Booklet. It includes the following paragraphs:

If you are a national of a country which is a member state of the EEA or Switzerland, or the
family member of such a person, you will automatically have permanent residence status
after exercising EEA free movement rights in the UK for any continuous period of 5 years
ending on or after 30 April 2006. You should apply for a permanent residence card to prove
that you hold that status before applying for citizenship.

But remember that, unless you are married to or the civil partner of a British citizen, you
should normally have held permanent resident status for 12 months before applying for
naturalisation. This means that you may need to wait until you have been in the United
Kingdom for 6 years before you can apply. When you apply for a permanent residence
document the evidence that you supply for your EEA(PR) application must be for a 5 year
period that ended at least a year before you want to apply for citizenship.

I had not seen this before I sent my EEA(PR) in. Thankfully I sent evidence of 6 years exercising treaty rights anyway. The text also implies that the naturalisation application processing team have a system in place which allows them to check the date on which you acquired PR. So no need to wait a year after getting the document. I will be applying immediately when I get mine.

In my circumstances, will I be successful in applying for permanent residency on the basis of being a police officer from Feb 2010- Feb 2015? I submitted all the relevant evidence to cover these respected dates. I would be extremely surprised if I was not successful. And then upon receiving the PR certificate I'll wait one year to apply for citizenship. That's all correct isn't it?

You should have PR no problem. My point is that you should not have to wait 12 months after receiving your PR document before applying for naturalisation. You will hit 12 months of holding PR in February 2016, so give it a couple of weeks as safety buffer, then bang in your application.

ohara wrote:You should have PR no problem. My point is that you should not have to wait 12 months after receiving your PR document before applying for naturalisation. You will hit 12 months of holding PR in February 2016, so give it a couple of weeks as safety buffer, then bang in your application.

Make no bones about it I completely agree that that's what SHOULD be the case but I've read a few people on here and on the internet that from November 12 2015 you need to have had that permanent residency certificate for 12 months in your possession before applying for citizenship. This obviously contradicts what the home office themselves state is the qualifying criteria for applying for British citizenship (you should simply hold pr for 12 months). People have stated on this forum that they have been told by the ncs workers that their application would be refused if they went ahead with applying for citizenship without having had that certificate for 12 months. So it's an expensive gamble to go ahead without having waited 12 months with that certificate.

I am completely perplexed and angry at this it's absolutely absurd and have no idea why I'm and many other people in my situation are being made to feel alienated like this. The eu referendum has got me concerned as to what my position will be if the uk votes 'leave'. I've never committed a crime, I have a career as a police officer gone through the education system here and I'm being made to feel like an alien or a criminal. I completely emphasise and understand what people like you ohara and other people are going through in similar situations to mine. I'm sorry for the pessimistic post but everywhere I turn there is anti eu or anti immigration in the news and media which seems to incite members of the public who will probably vote 'leave'.

I don't see the changes as suggesting that your PR commences from the day your card was issued.

It simply says, that evidence of settlement can be evidence by the issue of a permanent Registration certificate.

Obie wrote:I don't see the changes as suggesting that your PR commences from the day your card was issued.

It simply says, that evidence of settlement can be evidence by the issue of a permanent Registration certificate.

Obie I appreciate what your saying and I've read a few of your comments on this forum you seem wise and articulate enough to have a thorough understanding of immigration matters. However, from reading posts from persons that have personally rang up ncs employees and queried this, they have been told that their citizenship application would be refused if they had not waited one year with that PR certificate in their possession. It's just an expensive gamble to make I thjnk

I suspect there is some confusion and NCS people have not been properly briefed yet. It does state in the case worker guidance (I can't find the exact document now, it's the one in landscape with nice little hyperlinks at the sides), which specifically states that the date on a PR document is not indicative of when PR was actually acquired, and checks should be made to confirm.

If someone could post the link to that document here, it would be very useful as I will print the relevant page and take it to NCS appointment with me when I eventually do it.

@OHara
You are looking for Page 22 of the internal guidance linked to below.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_EXT.pdf

@alvarez0306
Obie and I do not necessarily see eye-to-eye (just read this thread), but I respect his knowledge of the law and would take that much more seriously than that of either the NCS employees or the Home Office phone line, the latter of which has been known to give incorrect information for which they are not held accountable.

secret.simon wrote:@OHara
You are looking for Page 22 of the internal guidance linked to below.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_EXT.pdf

@alvarez0306
Obie and I do not necessarily see eye-to-eye (just read this thread), but I respect his knowledge of the law and would take that much more seriously than that of either the NCS employees or the Home Office phone line, the latter of which has been known to give incorrect information for which they are not held accountable.

Well that hyperlink you have displayed seemed pretty concise and clear in suggesting that Ohara is correct; you shouldn't need to wait one year from obtaining the permanent residency document and should just go ahead with applying for naturalisation as long as 6 years have past and you have the document to hand. I wonder what this 'cid' system is that they will use and the accuracy of it. I am still somewhat hesitant to bang in the citizenship application when I get the pr document as I know how Erm maybe incompetent is a strong word but how inconsistent The home office sometimes are. I may wait for further clarification or for someone else's experience in doing this. 1000 quid is a gamble after all. An expensive one at That!

Thanks for the advice secret Simon obie and Ohara

secret.simon wrote:@OHara
You are looking for Page 22 of the internal guidance linked to below.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_EXT.pdf

Good effort, I spent all day looking for that and couldn't find the bugger anywhere.

It is important to note that the date of issue on a PR or DCPR does not necessarily reflect
the date that the PR was actually acquired. You must, therefore, check CID to see whether
the date the PR was deemed to have been acquired has been recorded.

That's the part that definitely confirms it. The way I see it, is that if you apply and they chicken it up and get it wrong, you should be able to challenge it without paying for a reconsideration because they have not applied their own guidance correctly.

ohara wrote:

secret.simon wrote:@OHara
You are looking for Page 22 of the internal guidance linked to below.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_EXT.pdf

Good effort, I spent all day looking for that and couldn't find the bugger anywhere.

It is important to note that the date of issue on a PR or DCPR does not necessarily reflect
the date that the PR was actually acquired. You must, therefore, check CID to see whether
the date the PR was deemed to have been acquired has been recorded.

That's the part that definitely confirms it. The way I see it, is that if you apply and they chicken it up and get it wrong, you should be able to challenge it without paying for a reconsideration because they have not applied their own guidance correctly.

I agree ohara that last paragraph confirms it. I have a few worries and reservations on it though. For starters it mentions that the case worker would have to check 'cid to see whether the date pr was deemed to have been acquired was recorded'. I can see in some instances that maybe they don't bother recording it? It is the home office after all! It would be a gamble to apply for citizenship as soon as the pr confirmation was sent to me and I am 50/50 on this so far.
What are you planning on doing Ohara? I had thought about just sending that document with my application, along with 6 years of proof of exercising treaty rights (employment letters, relevant p60s etc) which show the date that PR would have been given along with the PR document. I have emailed a couple immigration solicitors and the response I have received has been Positive on this note. They mention nothing about waiting a further 12 months after receiving PR document and all state as long as I have exercised treaty rights for a further 12 months and have a PR document I can apply for citizenship. I may wait and see how other people's experience pans out before deciding. As it stands May 2016 is when the six month time limit is up for my PR document to have been processed

Casa wrote:Please can we keep this thread strictly on-topic. UK EU IN OUT REFRENDUM CONFIRMED SUMMER 2016!!!!

Apologies casa. But to be fair my original post was 100% relating to the eu referendum. The subsequent conversation naturally followed to talking about citizenship.

Back to topic then. Anyone have any idea or prediction what will happen in the case of a 'Brexit'. As in what kind of free trade deals the U.K. May or may not make with the eu? Worrying and unprecedented times indeed

I don't believe we will leave.

ohara wrote:I don't believe we will leave.

I agree, but I believe that the UK will gain further opt-outs from EU laws.

Absolutely! That will be essential. I highly doubt I'll be a British citizen in time for the referendum so I won't be able to vote (but my British friends who have been living permanently in Ireland for the last 6 years will ), but I think people need to have some detailed information laid out detailing exactly what a post exit UK will look like before they vote to leave.

The truth is that nobody knows what will happen with our trade deals etc yet, there has been only speculation. I believe that as the first country to leave the EU, we would be punished - bloody hard too - to make an example as a deterrent for other countries thinking of doing the same. They will throw the book at us. It wouldn't surprise me if we didn't even get visa free access to the Schengen zone.

Following the Norway model would be pretty bad too - sure they aren't in the EU but in order to be part of the EFTA they still have to pay membership fees and follow EU laws, but they don't get a say in it! It's also worth noting that they are voluntarily in the Schengen agreement, whereas we are not.

One of the most common arguments I see getting thrown around is "we will save £55 million a day by leaving!!!!!1". These comments are usually from Facebook users who have a Union flag as their profile photo and list their education as the "school of hard knocks" or "university of life", but clearly don't actually have any formal education. My 13 year old Finnish sister has a better command of English spelling and grammar than most of them. They also don't seem to realise that a significant portion of that money will be invested in EU backed projects here in the UK. In England alone, since 2007 the European Regional Development Fund has helped over 24,000 businesses start and created over 100,000 jobs.

ohara wrote:Absolutely! That will be essential. I highly doubt I'll be a British citizen in time for the referendum so I won't be able to vote (but my British friends who have been living permanently in Ireland for the last 6 years will ), but I think people need to have some detailed information laid out detailing exactly what a post exit UK will look like before they vote to leave.

The truth is that nobody knows what will happen with our trade deals etc yet, there has been only speculation. I believe that as the first country to leave the EU, we would be punished - bloody hard too - to make an example as a deterrent for other countries thinking of doing the same. They will throw the book at us. It wouldn't surprise me if we didn't even get visa free access to the Schengen zone.

Following the Norway model would be pretty bad too - sure they aren't in the EU but in order to be part of the EFTA they still have to pay membership fees and follow EU laws, but they don't get a say in it! It's also worth noting that they are voluntarily in the Schengen agreement, whereas we are not.

One of the most common arguments I see getting thrown around is "we will save £55 million a day by leaving!!!!!1". These comments are usually from Facebook users who have a Union flag as their profile photo and list their education as the "school of hard knocks" or "university of life", but clearly don't actually have any formal education. My 13 year old Finnish sister has a better command of English spelling and grammar than most of them. They also don't seem to realise that a significant portion of that money will be invested in EU backed projects here in the UK. In England alone, since 2007 the European Regional Development Fund has helped over 24,000 businesses start and created over 100,000 jobs.

Yes I certainly cringe and shudder when I read on Facebook people commenting on the referendum and state things like 'control our borders!'. Leave the eu would not make a single bit of difference to the immigration numbers. It's become like a toxic subject for the home office and they are relentlessly trying to get immigration numbers down. Leaving the eu would not solve this in my opinion.

If we left as you say it would be unprecedented and no one knows what kind of deal Britain would get. I honestly think the uk will vote to leave as there appears to be a lot of anti eu and anti immigration rhetoric floating about everywhere; the media seem to promote and incite this feeling too. I only read the guardian and mirror because of this lol. It would be a disaster in my opinion, leaving the eu and then Scotland will almost certainly have a second referendum and they may this time vote to leave. That's forgetting what situation Ireland would find itself in! Opening Pandora's box doesn't necessarily always bring good consequences

It's normally "control are borders! stop the mooselims coming in!"

In reality we have some of the strictest immigration laws in Europe. Ironically the Surinder Singh route, which is essentially a method to sidestep one of our own immigration policies, benefits many British citizens and is only enabled by EEA immigration law.

Cameron wants to stay, Obama wants us to stay, not that I condone it but I'm sure the government will somehow ensure that we vote to remain in, if you know what I mean

ohara wrote:It's normally "control are borders! stop the mooselims coming in!"

In reality we have some of the strictest immigration laws in Europe. Ironically the Surinder Singh route, which is essentially a method to sidestep one of our own immigration policies, benefits many British citizens and is only enabled by EEA immigration law.

Cameron wants to stay, Obama wants us to stay, not that I condone it but I'm sure the government will somehow ensure that we vote to remain in, if you know what I mean

Be wary of posting remarks which might be considered inflammatory...even if (as I suspect) this was a lighthearted dig at Mr Trump.

ohara wrote:my British friends who have been living permanently in Ireland for the last 6 years will

You do realise that you do not have to be British to vote in the referendum (or a General Election). I have voted in every election in the UK since my arrival as a non-British Commonwealth citizen. Every Commonwealth citizen, from Nigeria, India or Canada for instance, who is in the UK on a non-visit visa, has the right to vote.

So, you won't be able to vote, but a Tier 4 student dependent from a Commonwealth country can.
Oh, the irony.

PS: Cypriot and Maltese citizens exercising treaty rights in the UK can vote, as they are also Commonwealth citizens.

Yes, that's true, my Australian friend for example who arrived a fews months before the General Election voted in it whereas other people who have been here for years and have ILR/PR weren't able to vote just because they are not from a Commonwealth country. Pretty weird when you think about it but I guess that's how the system works, sometimes it works in our favour and sometimes it doesn't Let's just hope people in this situation actually go to vote; a lot of them do not even seem to be aware that they can vote in the referendum as long as they are in the UK on a non-visit visa and from a Commonwealth country.

LilyLalilu wrote:I guess that's how the system works, sometimes it works in our favour and sometimes it doesn't

Well, think of it this way. My entire immigration journey (as a single person) to ILR cost me about £5000, with each LR renewal costing above £1000 each and the last two coming to about £1800 each. While people who have been here under the EEA route quibble about the £65 that they are charged.

Swings and roundabouts.

secret.simon wrote:

LilyLalilu wrote:I guess that's how the system works, sometimes it works in our favour and sometimes it doesn't

Well, think of it this way. My entire immigration journey (as a single person) to ILR cost me about £5000, with each LR renewal costing above £1000 each and the last two coming to about £1800 each. While people who have been here under the EEA route quibble about the £65 that they are charged.

Swings and roundabouts.

Yes I can see your situation will perhaps make others going through the EEA PR route seem a lot easier. And I can't believe how expensive it's been for you.
I just can't feel a sense of injustice and almost comical feeling that I am not able to vote in the referendum or general elections for that matter. I have lived in this country since I was 4, I am now 27. I can't even speak Spanish I speak with a south London accent, I have gone through the education system here and have been full time employed as a police officer for six years. And I get no say in the outcome of this referendum lol if I didn't laugh id cry!
Having to go through all these obstacles and the laborious task of naturalising myself isn't something I want to do, it's something I find myself HAVING to do in the event of a 'Brexit'. We will see what happened post referendum. From a neutral point of view it is very interesting

secret.simon wrote:

ohara wrote:my British friends who have been living permanently in Ireland for the last 6 years will

You do realise that you do not have to be British to vote in the referendum (or a General Election). I have voted in every election in the UK since my arrival as a non-British Commonwealth citizen. Every Commonwealth citizen, from Nigeria, India or Canada for instance, who is in the UK on a non-visit visa, has the right to vote.

So, you won't be able to vote, but a Tier 4 student dependent from a Commonwealth country can.
Oh, the irony.

PS: Cypriot and Maltese citizens exercising treaty rights in the UK can vote, as they are also Commonwealth citizens.

And citizens of the Republic of Ireland...