UK EU referendum confirmed for summer 2016

secret.simon wrote:

LilyLalilu wrote:I guess that's how the system works, sometimes it works in our favour and sometimes it doesn't

Well, think of it this way. My entire immigration journey (as a single person) to ILR cost me about £5000, with each LR renewal costing above £1000 each and the last two coming to about £1800 each. While people who have been here under the EEA route quibble about the £65 that they are charged.

Swings and roundabouts.

Those pesky Europeans! Always too easy for them! Let's kick them out!

chaoclive wrote:And citizens of the Republic of Ireland

Ireland is not a part of the Commonwealth of Nations. It could not wait to get out of it when it was created. Indeed, I do not think it even joined it in the first place. The rights of Irish citizens in the UK derive from a different UK statute.

Apparently, the British government in the 1950s suggested that France join the Commonwealth!!! Of course, one can imagine what De Gaulle thought of that.

Anyway, on a lighter note, here is an explanation of why the UK joined the EEC (as then).

rooibos wrote:Those pesky Europeans! Always too easy for them! Let's kick them out!

Well, they should learn to count their blessings and stop moaning, for a start.

secret.simon wrote:My entire immigration journey (as a single person) to ILR cost me about £5000, with each LR renewal costing above £1000 each and the last two coming to about £1800 each. While people who have been here under the EEA route quibble about the £65 that they are charged.

That is absolutely savage. I've looked at the prices for some of the immigration applications and they are insane, especially the ILR. Just out of interest, which country are you from and under which circumstances did you come to the UK? I don't moan about the £65 charge for PR doc, in fact £65 is nothing. £1005 for citizenship is a fair price to pay considering the privilege.

alvarez0306 wrote:(...)I just can't feel a sense of injustice and almost comical feeling that I am not able to vote in the referendum or general elections for that matter.(...)

Yeah it's become something of a running joke for me every time the general election comes around. My friends ask me who I'm going to vote for. I tell them I can't vote. They say WHAT? BUT YOU'RE BRITISH? No sir, lived here my entire life, probably paid £35k in tax in my career, but I can't vote in the general elections or work an IT job in the RAF until I've given the Home Office a grand and I've got a piece of paper saying I'm British

ohara wrote:

secret.simon wrote:My entire immigration journey (as a single person) to ILR cost me about £5000, with each LR renewal costing above £1000 each and the last two coming to about £1800 each. While people who have been here under the EEA route quibble about the £65 that they are charged.

That is absolutely savage. I've looked at the prices for some of the immigration applications and they are insane, especially the ILR. Just out of interest, which country are you from and under which circumstances did you come to the UK? I don't moan about the £65 charge for PR doc, in fact £65 is nothing. £1005 for citizenship is a fair price to pay considering the privilege.

alvarez0306 wrote:(...)I just can't feel a sense of injustice and almost comical feeling that I am not able to vote in the referendum or general elections for that matter.(...)

Yeah it's become something of a running joke for me every time the general election comes around. My friends ask me who I'm going to vote for. I tell them I can't vote. They say WHAT? BUT YOU'RE BRITISH? No sir, lived here my entire life, probably paid £35k in tax in my career, but I can't vote in the general elections or work an IT job in the RAF until I've given the Home Office a grand and I've got a piece of paper saying I'm British

I feel your pain. I had lots of great opportunities after I left university to work for the government however I was not aware (naively of course) that I had to be a British citizen. So unfortunately I was not able to take up these jobs. I just think common sense in these sort of situations should prevail but under a centre right government that's unlikely to happen. The eu referendum has sort of given me a kick up the backside to sort out my citizenship. Clearly living in this country since I was a toddler doesn't mean squat and there is no sentiment when in comes to immigration matters.

alvarez0306 wrote: The eu referendum has sort of given me a kick up the backside to sort out my citizenship. Clearly living in this country since I was a toddler doesn't mean squat and there is no sentiment when in comes to immigration matters.

Yes I agree absolutely. It was always something I intended to do, and I have been putting it off for years (when I first looked into it, the fee was under £800, perhaps I shouldn't have waited so long )

What is annoying is that my mother was a dual Finnish/British citizen, and I'm sure I would have qualified for registration as a British citizen sometime during my childhood. Unfortunately this was never sorted, and she died a few years ago, so naturalisation is my only option now.

It would be great if the HO could exercise discretion in cases like ours, where we were born in other countries but have been brought up in the UK with no intention to leave, and just grant us British citizenship without having to jump through all the hoops. I feel British, I have no ties to my country of birth, you'd never know I was foreign unless I told you.

secret.simon wrote:

chaoclive wrote:And citizens of the Republic of Ireland

Ireland is not a part of the Commonwealth of Nations. It could not wait to get out of it when it was created. Indeed, I do not think it even joined it in the first place. The rights of Irish citizens in the UK derive from a different UK statute.

Apparently, the British government in the 1950s suggested that France join the Commonwealth!!! Of course, one can imagine what De Gaulle thought of that.

Anyway, on a lighter note, here is an explanation of why the UK joined the EEC (as then).

rooibos wrote:Those pesky Europeans! Always too easy for them! Let's kick them out!

Well, they should learn to count their blessings and stop moaning, for a start.

Who said that the ROI was part of the Commonwealth? Can you point out where I specifically said that? I was simply pointing out my right, as an Irish citizen, to vote in UK elections. I am very well aware of where the rights derive from.

Who said that the ROI was part of the Commonwealth? Can you point out where I specifically said that? I was simply pointing out my right, as an Irish citizen, to vote in UK elections. I am very well aware of where the rights derive from.[/quote]

Chaoclive being a citizen of the Republic of Ireland I am interested to hear your views of the referendum. What is the current state of fairs of ROI regarding the possiblitlty of Brexit? From reading on Internet and social media Scotland seems to be the most pro European country out of the U.K. But I believe Ireland is also pro euro

alvarez0306 wrote:Who said that the ROI was part of the Commonwealth? Can you point out where I specifically said that? I was simply pointing out my right, as an Irish citizen, to vote in UK elections. I am very well aware of where the rights derive from.

Chaoclive being a citizen of the Republic of Ireland I am interested to hear your views of the referendum. What is the current state of fairs of ROI regarding the possiblitlty of Brexit? From reading on Internet and social media Scotland seems to be the most pro European country out of the U.K. But I believe Ireland is also pro euro[/quote]
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I don't actually live in the ROI, nor have I ever really done so for any amount of time, but I do know that Irish people, in general, seem a lot more pro-Europe than many people in England (not sure about Wales/Scotland). I live in Northern Ireland (NI) and most of my friends/acquaintances here would prefer that the the UK stays part of the EU, especially those who live around the border areas. If the UK were to leave the EU, many people here think that it would probably create a lot more hassle for cross-border trade with he Irish Republic, despite the fact that we have the Common Travel Area and a lot of integration with ROI anyway. Northern Irish news broadcasts often mention about the possibility of border controls between NI and ROI. I don't know how likely this is but it definitely is a concern for people on both sides.

When I lived with my parents, I thought nothing of driving for 10 minutes to cross the border to buy cheap petrol and many people from the Irish side come to NI to do their grocery shopping in the large Tesco/Asda stores as it's quite a bit cheaper. People are worried about this kind of stuff which will affect their everyday lives. I think the use of the Euro in ROI also strengthens the feeling of 'being European' as well.

On the more formal/official side, there have been reports undertaken into the effect on ROI which stated that there might be a drop in trade between the UK and ROI, tariffs could be introduced and there may also be restrictions in the movement of workers between the two countries. Some experts also point to concerns about the energy market in ROI as the gas used in ROI comes via the UK. We also have an all-Ireland electricity market which includes NI (Single Electricity Market). These may all be affected by a Brexit. I'm not an expert on any of this to be fair but I, myself, am definitely pro-Europe.

At least a Brexit would not specifically affect my ability to live and work in the UK but I do sympathize with all those who may be affected! The best thing is definitely to get those PR applications in ASAP...just in case.

chaoclive wrote:

alvarez0306 wrote:Who said that the ROI was part of the Commonwealth? Can you point out where I specifically said that? I was simply pointing out my right, as an Irish citizen, to vote in UK elections. I am very well aware of where the rights derive from.

Chaoclive being a citizen of the Republic of Ireland I am interested to hear your views of the referendum. What is the current state of fairs of ROI regarding the possiblitlty of Brexit? From reading on Internet and social media Scotland seems to be the most pro European country out of the U.K. But I believe Ireland is also pro euro

----------------
I don't actually live in the ROI, nor have I ever really done so for any amount of time, but I do know that Irish people, in general, seem a lot more pro-Europe than many people in England (not sure about Wales/Scotland). I live in Northern Ireland (NI) and most of my friends/acquaintances here would prefer that the the UK stays part of the EU, especially those who live around the border areas. If the UK were to leave the EU, many people here think that it would probably create a lot more hassle for cross-border trade with he Irish Republic, despite the fact that we have the Common Travel Area and a lot of integration with ROI anyway. Northern Irish news broadcasts often mention about the possibility of border controls between NI and ROI. I don't know how likely this is but it definitely is a concern for people on both sides.

When I lived with my parents, I thought nothing of driving for 10 minutes to cross the border to buy cheap petrol and many people from the Irish side come to NI to do their grocery shopping in the large Tesco/Asda stores as it's quite a bit cheaper. People are worried about this kind of stuff which will affect their everyday lives. I think the use of the Euro in ROI also strengthens the feeling of 'being European' as well.

On the more formal/official side, there have been reports undertaken into the effect on ROI which stated that there might be a drop in trade between the UK and ROI, tariffs could be introduced and there may also be restrictions in the movement of workers between the two countries. Some experts also point to concerns about the energy market in ROI as the gas used in ROI comes via the UK. We also have an all-Ireland electricity market which includes NI (Single Electricity Market). These may all be affected by a Brexit. I'm not an expert on any of this to be fair but I, myself, am definitely pro-Europe.

At least a Brexit would not specifically affect my ability to live and work in the UK but I do sympathize with all those who may be affected! The best thing is definitely to get those PR applications in ASAP...just in case.[/quote]

Yes exactly I'm getting the vibe that Scotland and Ireland tend to be more pro European then England in general. It's really about getting those pro Europeans to vote in the referendum I think, as those who are anti eu will be more inclined to actually
Go out and vote I thing. Yes I'm going through the PR route and then hopefully full on citizenship to protect myself. Been living here since I was 4 I'm now 27! Would be nice to actually vote in elections when this is all sorted as well.
As you say though, leaving the eu I believe would have massive financial consequences. Those advocating a Brexit have not actually said what kind of deal Britain would be looking at achieving with the rest of the eu.

ohara wrote:Just out of interest, which country are you from and under which circumstances did you come to the UK? I don't moan about the £65 charge for PR doc, in fact £65 is nothing. £1005 for citizenship is a fair price to pay considering the privilege.

Suffice to say that I come from a Commonwealth country in Asia and came here on a Highly Skilled Migrant Programme (HSMP) visa and worked my way to settlement. The conditions of the visa were fairly stringent and at one point I was working two jobs, both in the IT field, both with overtime, to meet the earnings requirement.

I was not referring to you when discussing the £65 charge, but there have been threads on these forums (see here and here) disputing the nominal charge.

ohara wrote:work an IT job in the RAF

I am disqualified for many jobs of this nature even after becoming a British citizen because they require your parents to also be British citizens and for them to have resided in the UK for the preceding ten years.

alvarez0306 wrote:there is no sentiment when in comes to immigration matters.

ohara wrote:just grant us British citizenship without having to jump through all the hoops

I do not mean to cause offense, but immigration and citizenship are too serious a matter for sentiment. They should be clinically analysed in a cold, impersonal, dispassionate and rational manner. Sentiment is best left for matters like football matches and weddings.

ohara wrote:I feel British,..., you'd never know I was foreign unless I told you.

I completely identify with the first part of the statement above.
As for the latter part, I have been told the same as well. Most people (including most of my work colleagues) do not realise that I was not born here, until I tell them explicitly. It helps that my parents and family can pass off as European in both look and speech. I followed the Maastricht debate in my country of origin over that most ancient of world wide webs, the short wave radio. Which is why I was able to post so confidently about that on this thread. That also explains my trenchant support for the BBC. I was not a cool kid at school though.

chaoclive wrote: Who said that the ROI was part of the Commonwealth? Can you point out where I specifically said that? I was simply pointing out my right, as an Irish citizen, to vote in UK elections. I am very well aware of where the rights derive from.

I did not mean to cause offense. I was merely highlighting the fact that in the context of right of Commonwealth citizens to vote, it could be misconstrued that the ROI was a member of the Commonwealth.

alvarez0306 wrote:I'm getting the vibe that Scotland and Ireland tend to be more pro European then England in general.

alvarez0306 wrote:leaving the eu I believe would have massive financial consequences. Those advocating a Brexit have not actually said what kind of deal Britain would be looking at achieving with the rest of the eu.

I am drafting posts that I hope will clarify that I hope these two points and that I hope to post soon. I'm just too snowed in with work this week.

I will wrap up this post by recommending a blog post that analyses the question which summarises the topic of this thread-Why summer 2016?

Getting the timing right: Cameron weighs up the pros and cons of a June 2016 referendum

If the UK leaves the EU, the Common Travel Area will be finished as we know it, especially if Scotland breaks free and remains in the EU. The UK would share two separate land borders with countries that are in the EU, while we are not. So I imagine border controls would need to be introduced.

After being victimised in the last three years (out my almost 17 years) I have decided that I will never ever apply for British citizenship. I will apply for PR, if I am granted it, fine, if not, tough! If I get the PR and eventually I'll be kicked out of this country, fine. I speak 4 languages and I will survive somewhere in Europe. I am not a desperate money grabber. But if Scotland becomes independent, I'll move there and one day I could apply for a Scottish passport. I lived in Glasgow ten years ago and it was the best time in this country. I regret leaving Scotland.

How have you been victimised?

rooibos wrote:After being victimised in the last three years (out my almost 17 years) I have decided that I will never ever apply for British citizenship. I will apply for PR, if I am granted it, fine, if not, tough! If I get the PR and eventually I'll be kicked out of this country, fine. I speak 4 languages and I will survive somewhere in Europe. I am not a desperate money grabber. But if Scotland becomes independent, I'll move there and one day I could apply for a Scottish passport. I lived in Glasgow ten years ago and it was the best time in this country. I regret leaving Scotland.

I would like to think that once you gained permanent residency then you would be allowed to stay in this country regardless of the outcome of the eu referendum. I would be shocked otherwise

As much as the likes of Farage would like it to happen, I can't see us all just being kicked out. My entire life is here and I don't qualify for any state assistance in my birth country any more as I have lived abroad for far, far too long. It would be stupid to force people like us out. Not to mention there are probably hundreds of thousands of EEA citizens living here under free movement rights. As well as the 2 million British citizens living in other EEA states under the same rights, who would end up having to come home unless some kind of bilateral agreement was reached.

alvarez0306 wrote:I would like to think that once you gained permanent residency then you would be allowed to stay in this country regardless of the outcome of the eu referendum. I would be shocked otherwise

If the UK were to leave the EU, EU law, including Directive 2004/38/EC under whose provisions PR is granted, will cease to apply to the UK.

In such a hypothetical scenario, it is highly likely that the PR status would be converted to or treated as akin to ILR. But that will be at the grant of the UK authorities and won't be automatic.

I agree with Ohara that a bilateral UK-EU agreement specifying the status of each others' citizens would be likely in case the UK does leave the EU.

secret.simon wrote:

alvarez0306 wrote:I would like to think that once you gained permanent residency then you would be allowed to stay in this country regardless of the outcome of the eu referendum. I would be shocked otherwise

If the UK were to leave the EU, EU law, including Directive 2004/38/EC under whose provisions PR is granted, will cease to apply to the UK.

In such a hypothetical scenario, it is highly likely that the PR status would be converted to or treated as akin to ILR. But that will be at the grant of the UK authorities and won't be automatic.

Again- this would highly unlikely lead to the deportation of eu citizens who hold permanent residency.

alvarez0306 wrote:

secret.simon wrote:...it is highly likely that the PR status would be converted to or treated as akin to ILR.

Again- this would highly unlikely lead to the deportation of eu citizens who hold permanent residency.

I agree.

ohara wrote:How have you been victimised?

Yes, I had jobs refused. I was told in my face they would do their best not to get me a job. There were recruiters for well paid jobs. Plus I had cases of people telling me to go back to where I come from, and things like that. Never happened before; only in the last two years.

Don't worry about it mate, they are probably part of the Britain First crowd that have never set foot outside the United Kingdom. I had 5 years of shit - being a foreign kid in a British secondary school is tough. Most people were OK, and I had a lot of friends, but there's always the bad group - the ones that you'll probably see 15 years later serving you in Burger King.

We seem to be getting a firmer possibility of a more specific date for the EU Referendum: Thursday 23 June 2016.

http://london4europe.co.uk/news/eu-refe ... now-clear/

secret.simon wrote:We seem to be getting a firmer possibility of a more specific date for the EU Referendum: Thursday 23 June 2016.

http://london4europe.co.uk/news/eu-refe ... now-clear/

Hope it is June as expected. The sooner it is the better. Just get it over and done with

I hate being a Cassandra and saying I told you so, but I told you so.

It seems fairly certain that the Schengen zone will be suspended for a period of two years from Monday onwards. The French Prime Minister has said that the migrant crisis threatens ending Europe itself.

It is very ironic that people are het up over David Cameron's extraordinarily moderate demands from the EU. Indeed, it does seem like rearranging the desk chairs on the Titanic. The four demands are

• -to protect the single market for Britain and for others outside the eurozone
  
  -to "write competitiveness into the DNA of the whole European Union” (whatever that means; almost as meaningless as the promises on the Ed-Stone)
  
  -to change the EU treaty to exclude Britain from the idea of “ever closer union” and to strengthen the role of national parliaments in European lawmaking.
  
  -to restrict access to welfare payments for migrant workers.

The purpose of the last demand is to make it less economically viable for EEA migrants to come to the UK, not to remove or reduce that right directly.

As it can be seen, the demands make no changes to the current EU laws on freedom of movement.

It is precisely the extraordinary moderation of the demands that makes the case for the Leave campaign. In the mind of most voters, the referendum is about EU migration, which the demands don't even address, except in a very tangential way.

However, the mistake people are making is the assumption that the laws will not change if we remain in the EU.

The massive migrant tidalwave moving across the EU and the New Year sex attacks by what appeared to be migrants on women welcoming in the New Year in Cologne and Helsinki is souring the mood against immigrants everywhere in Europe.

I am afraid I must agree with a woman participating in the PEGIDA demonstrations in Cologne;

"I'm not saying that anyone who wasn't born in Germany should leave this country, but don't you think it's a bit rude to come here, ask for shelter and then to commit crimes? No, we don't have to accept that. In fact, we must not accept that."

We have already seen the mood darkening against asylum-seekers in the UK .The unfortunate consequence of this souring of mood against migrants is that even migrants legally in the EU on work permits and student visas could be targeted.

The statement by the French Prime Minister that Europe is likely to fail due to the migrant crisis suggests that now even the most EU-centric countries (France and Germany) are beginning to see uncontrolled migration as a problem. It is therefore not impossible-indeed, it is likely-that the rules for migration with Europe for non-EEA citizens is tightened considerably. And that can include extended family members of EEA citizens.

I doubt that EEA citizens and their direct family members (spouse and children) will be impacted, but I think it likely that the definition of extended family members will be tightened up considerably (so something like the Rahman case, half-brother, cousin and nephew) would be unlikely to succeed and the requirements for extended family members (which is still in the hands of national governments) will be made more stringent.

U.K. Isn't even in the Schengen Agreement. I have no idea on the relevance of your post. Because the French pm says that the eu will fail doesn't mean that it will Fail. And it certainly doesn't mean that eu citizens will now face tougher actions as you seem to have eluded to. It seems as if you are trying to unnecessarily cause scare monger for no reason whatsoever

The purpose of the post is to show the direction of travel across the EU in terms of attitude towards immigration, whether refugees, workers, students or EEA citizens. The attitude of people and governments towards immigration is hardening within the EU and that will have ramifications for all immigration, including that within the EEA.

The Schengen zone is part of the EU acquis communtaire and something that the EU has been proud of. If it were to fail, it certainly highlights the fact that freedom of movement is actually very much negotiable.

As regards scare-mongering, the reference to Cassandra is obviously lost on you.