Residence permit from one country, then go to another

Can anyone please tell me, if my partner is issued a "permit or residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" from the Cyprus embassy, would we be obligated to enter via Cyprus or could we enter via Spain?

Or could we enter via Cyprus, stay a short time, and then move to Spain?

Thanks in advance for any constructive answers.

Phil

Cyprus is not yet part of Schengen, therefore you will be unable to travel with a visa issued by the Cypriot authorities to Spain.

They have asked for a year's extension as they have yet to meet the conditions laid.

Obie wrote:Cyprus is not yet part of Schengen, therefore you will be unable to travel with a visa issued by the Cypriot authorities to Spain.

They have asked for a year's extension as they have yet to meet the conditions laid.

Yes but they are part of the EEA which entitles residence card holders travel between EEA countries, according to the European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC

Schengen visas are only for stays of up to 90 days anyway.

There are two aspects of EU freedom of movement Law or Directive 2004/38 EC.

Right of entry and Right Of Residence for 3 months or more.

If you are issued with a Cypriot visa, it will not confer right of entry for your partner to Spain. If however she obtains a Resident card from Cyprus by virtue of you exercising a Treaty right there, then she can travel to Spain with that Resident Card.

However, if she is traveling with you, even though she doesn't have the required documents, she will not be denied entry, if she can show proof beyond reasonable doubt, the existence of a relationship between the two of you.

Obie wrote:There are two aspects of EU freedom of movement Law or Directive 2004/38 EC.

Right of entry and Right Of Residence for 3 months or more.

If you are issued with a Cypriot visa, it will not confer right of entry for your partner to Spain. If however she obtains a Resident card from Cyprus by virtue of you exercising a Treaty right there, then she can travel to Spain with that Resident Card.

However, if she is traveling with you, even though she doesn't have the required documents, she will not be denied entry, if she can show proof beyond reasonable doubt, the existence of a relationship between the two of you.

Thanks for your reply, we want to move to Spain as The directive 2004/38/EC clearly states on page 13 that the Beneficiaries entitled to a permit or residence card for a family member of a Union citizen, include (b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.

But the Spanish are stalling so whilst searching the net for info, I found this link http://www.europarl.europa.eu/document/ ... 9103EN.pdf which if I understand it correctly, Cyprus DOES facilitate the entry and residence of the partner with whom the union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.

If I have interpreted this correctly this could be useful to many people fighting for their rights based on this directive.

What we’re hoping to do is obtain right of residence in Cyprus via their laws, then move to Spain.

Would this work?


Also you state,

However, if she is traveling with you, even though she doesn't have the required documents, she will not be denied entry, if she can show proof beyond reasonable doubt, the existence of a relationship between the two of you.

From what I’ve read on this forum that’s not as easy as it should be.

In my experience the EU/EEA route is a wonderful thing in practise but in reality it's a nightmare of States not knowing rules, battling to impose their local rules, Stupid denying you, confused border guards if u ever see one.

Nice idea and worth pursuing if u like to live on ur nerves and battle all the way.

Personally I prefer tried and trusted UK, this country is a USA-clone but to be honest, largely fair for most people. Why not just do it the Uk-way?

I think the OP is not seeking to enter the UK via Surinder Singh route, he is thinking of settling in Spain where he has a Job lined up, if i am correct, and wondering how to get his unmarried partner into Spain.

UK national Law will not be applicable to him, as his problem is, Spain doesn't recognised unmarried heterosexual couples.

Similar to your case with the Germans, if i can remember correctly.

Obie wrote:I think the OP is not seeking to enter the UK via Surinder Singh route, he is thinking of settling in Spain where he has a Job lined up, if i am correct, and wondering how to get his unmarried partner into Spain.

Yes Obie that is correct. We want to live in Spain.

Just to clarify, you wrote,

If however she obtains a Resident card from Cyprus by virtue of you exercising a Treaty right there, then she can travel to Spain with that Resident Card.

Does that mean that a resident card if issued by Cyprus would state, “residence card for a family member of a Union citizenâ€

phil_uk wrote:

However, if she is traveling with you, even though she doesn't have the required documents, she will not be denied entry, if she can show proof beyond reasonable doubt, the existence of a relationship between the two of you.

So in theory that would mean that even if we went to Spain with my partner obtaining just a Schengen tourist visa, we should be able to obtain residency if we provide documentation proving our “durable relationshipâ€

Wanderer wrote:

phil_uk wrote:

However, if she is traveling with you, even though she doesn't have the required documents, she will not be denied entry, if she can show proof beyond reasonable doubt, the existence of a relationship between the two of you.

So in theory that would mean that even if we went to Spain with my partner obtaining just a Schengen tourist visa, we should be able to obtain residency if we provide documentation proving our “durable relationshipâ€

I am assuming that a Resident Card Issued under Directive 2004/38EC by the Greek-Cypriot authorities should have a clear/explicit description along the lines you mentioned- correct.

Even if it doesn't, the reality of the acquisition route doesn't change- does it?- that it was obtained by virtue of directive 2004/38EC, remains a fact and reality.

I am pretty confident that you will be able to enter with your partner into Spain with little or no hindrance, using a Resident card issued by Greek-Cyprus.

In fact you can use a Schengen Visa issued by Sweden, which recognises cohabiting partners, to enter Spain.

I suspect they try to act stupid when one is not within their borders, if however you are able to secure entry for your partner into Spain, i suspect they will have no option but to facilitate a residency.

The question that a member state will or should then be asking themselves in those scenarios is; will denying a Resident Card to the cohabiting partner of this EEA national, hinder him from exercising his treaty rights in Spain, or cause him unnecessary hardship, which i am sure will be answered in the positive.

Obie wrote:I am assuming that a Resident Card Issued under Directive 2004/38EC by the Greek-Cypriot authorities should have a clear/explicit description along the lines you mentioned- correct.

Even if it doesn't, the reality of the acquisition route doesn't change- does it?- that it was obtained by virtue of directive 2004/38EC, remains a fact and reality.

I am pretty confident that you will be able to enter with your partner into Spain with little or no hindrance, using a Resident card issued by Greek-Cyprus.

In fact you can use a Schengen Visa issued by Sweden, which recognises cohabiting partners, to enter Spain.

I suspect they try to act stupid when one is not within their borders, if however you are able to secure entry for your partner into Spain, i suspect they will have no option but to facilitate a residency.

The question that a member state will or should then be asking themselves in those scenarios is; will denying a Resident Card to the cohabiting partner of this EEA national, hinder him from exercising his treaty rights in Spain, or cause him unnecessary hardship, which i am sure will be answered in the positive.

Thanks for your positive response Obie.

When you say…..

I am pretty confident that you will be able to enter with your partner into Spain with little or no hindrance, using a Resident card issued by Greek-Cyprus.

D you mean if & when she gets a resident card from Cyprus, we should be able to just go direct to Spain?

Also if the RC doesn’t state which member state issued it (yes/no?) then Spain will be none the wiser and won’t know if it was obtained on the basis of married partners or partners in a durable relationship, will they? If she has a RC then that applies to all the EU states surely?

Also when you say….

I suspect they try to act stupid when one is not within their borders,

I assume you mean they try to act stupid when applying outside of the EU such as Thailand where we are?


Regarding what you said below, do you mean if we enter Spain with a RC issued by Cyprus they should facilitate residency? Does the RC in itself not automatically mean they have to give residency because she has the EU RC?

if however you are able to secure entry for your partner into Spain, i suspect they will have no option but to facilitate a residency.

Cheers,

Phil

Obie wrote:I am assuming that a Resident Card Issued under Directive 2004/38EC by the Greek-Cypriot authorities should have a clear/explicit description along the lines you mentioned- correct.

Even if it doesn't, the reality of the acquisition route doesn't change- does it?- that it was obtained by virtue of directive 2004/38EC, remains a fact and reality.

I am pretty confident that you will be able to enter with your partner into Spain with little or no hindrance, using a Resident card issued by Greek-Cyprus.

In fact you can use a Schengen Visa issued by Sweden, which recognises cohabiting partners, to enter Spain.

I suspect they try to act stupid when one is not within their borders, if however you are able to secure entry for your partner into Spain, i suspect they will have no option but to facilitate a residency.

The question that a member state will or should then be asking themselves in those scenarios is; will denying a Resident Card to the cohabiting partner of this EEA national, hinder him from exercising his treaty rights in Spain, or cause him unnecessary hardship, which i am sure will be answered in the positive.

Thanks for your positive response Obie.

When you say…..

I am pretty confident that you will be able to enter with your partner into Spain with little or no hindrance, using a Resident card issued by Greek-Cyprus.

D you mean if & when she gets a resident card from Cyprus, we should be able to just go direct to Spain?

Also if the RC doesn’t state which member state issued it (yes/no?) then Spain will be none the wiser and won’t know if it was obtained on the basis of married partners or partners in a durable relationship, will they? If she has a RC then that applies to all the EU states surely?

Also when you say….

I suspect they try to act stupid when one is not within their borders,

I assume you mean they try to act stupid when applying outside of the EU such as Thailand where we are?


Regarding what you said below, do you mean if we enter Spain with a RC issued by Cyprus they should facilitate residency? Does the RC in itself not automatically mean they have to give residency because she has the EU RC?

if however you are able to secure entry for your partner into Spain, i suspect they will have no option but to facilitate a residency.

Cheers,

Phil

Please see this post from a contributor, as evidence that Spain has relaxed their rules for entry, in cases involving family member of EEA nationals.

[b]86ti on another thread[/b] wrote:
The Spanish document is an amendment to Royal Decree 240/2007 for Article 4, paragraph 2 (referring to Article 5.2 of the Directive). Google translates the new text as: "The possession of the family residence card of citizen of the Union, valid and in force, issued by another State party to the Agreement on the European Economic Area, shall exempt such family members from the obligation to obtain the visa entry, and the production of this card does not require the stamping of entry or exit in the passport.".

The original text stated that only residence cards issued by full members of the Schengen agreement would be acceptable (we have a link somewhere in this thread).

People who received the Resident Card stipulated in Article 10 Directive 2004/38EC, benefit from freedom of Movement with their family member, therefore you are right, Spain will find it difficult not to continue facilitating that Freedom of Movement under the initial basis for which it was granted. So, in answer to your question, yes, it certainly gives more credence to your case.

They will be pushed to a corner, and would have little or no option but to issue residency.

I hope i have been of help in answering your query.

Obie wrote:
I hope i have been of help in answering your query.

Thanks, yes you have been extremely helpful and positive. I’ll just have to see what Cyprus say when they reply to the email I have sent them. But from what I read in the link I posted, they sound like they should be agreeable, assuming I interpreted it correctly.

BTW, did you read it?

Cheers,

Phil

Hi Phil,

I read it too, and you interpretation is spot on.

Member state, as the document stated, don't have to recognise your relationship, but has an obligation to facilitate the entry and residency of your cohabiting partner, with whom you have durable relationship, duly attested.

You seem to be doing a lot of homework, i must say.

Best wishes and success for the future.

Obie wrote: Member state, as the document stated, don't have to recognise your relationship, but has an obligation to facilitate the entry and residency of your cohabiting partner, with whom you have durable relationship, duly attested.

I still don't think it's so simple, especially WRT to the Spanish who have an terrible record with regard to residence cards;

I follow the above but you missed this bit off...

Without prejudice to any right to free movement and residence the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national legislation, facilitate entry and residence.

Remember too the Cypriot-issued RC will cease when residency is ended in the State that issued it, the Spanish don't have to accept the relationship because Cyprus did and IMHO won't, because their local law doesn't allow it.

I hope I'm wrong, I really am, but I fancy this route is going be a long and tortuous one with the EC involved with costs mounting, long wait and no guarantee of success.

I am the Ying of Negativity to Obie's Yang of Positivity!

I beg to defer with you on the Spaniards efficiency in issuing residency documents.

In fact they appear to be one of the most liberal. They were recommended by the EU commission for being one of the country that implements the rule 85% correctly. I suppose the OP's case and the delays in issuing visas is what made them short of 100%. They issue residency documents without requesting evidence that the EU national is exercising treaty rights in Spain. How liberal is that?

Let me give you some facts:

Directive 2004/38EC Article 10(2) wrote:
Right of entry

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State
shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with
Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with
national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of
the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt
such family members from the visa requirement.

Therefore the resident card issued by Greek-Cyprus is valid for the purpose of traveling to Spain , and she will benefit from freedom of movement too as stated, FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE DIRECTIVE

I know it won't be easy, but i am highly probable it can succeed.


Also

Directive 2004/38EC Article 2 wrote:
Article 2
Definitions
For the purposes of this Directive:
1. ‘Union citizen’ means any person having the nationality of a
Member State;
2. ‘family member’ means:
(b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has contracted
a registered partnership, on the basis of the legislation
of a Member State, if the legislation of the host Member
State treats registered partnerships as equivalent to
marriage and in accordance with the conditions laid
down in the relevant legislation of the host Member
State;

Therefore, his right to demand her residency be processed is valid and lawful as this is provided for in the directive, which they are oblige to transpose into law.

Again, i will be on the err of caution and say this will not be easy, but it is certainly a winnable case.

I’ve just been digesting all the info on here and this bit below

The original text stated that only residence cards issued by full members of the Schengen agreement would be acceptable (we have a link somewhere in this thread).

From here, below

The Spanish document is an amendment to Royal Decree 240/2007 for Article 4, paragraph 2 (referring to Article 5.2 of the Directive). Google translates the new text as: "The possession of the family residence card of citizen of the Union, valid and in force, issued by another State party to the Agreement on the European Economic Area, shall exempt such family members from the obligation to obtain the visa entry, and the production of this card does not require the stamping of entry or exit in the passport.".

The original text stated that only residence cards issued by full members of the Schengen agreement would be acceptable (we have a link somewhere in this thread).

Is making me wonder if a Residence card issued by Cyprus will in fact allow entry into Spain as Cyprus is not a member of the Schengen yet? It seems the answer is no.

Any idea?

phil_uk wrote:
Is making me wonder if a Residence card issued by Cyprus will in fact allow entry into Spain as Cyprus is not a member of the Schengen yet? It seems the answer is no.

Any idea?

If the residence card states "Residence card for a family member of an EU citizen" issued by Cyprus, then I believe it should be visa-free to Spain if joining or accompanying the EU spouse.

Any other type of residence from Cyprus is not allowed to enter Spain with a VISA.

Sorry to be a pain but I just want to clarify something with those who know the answer.

If & hopefully when my girlfriend is issued a visa, permit or whatever its called, from an embassy here in Thailand, whether it be Cyprus or France, will the document say….. Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen

Or is that what a document issued in Spain would say?

I’m just trying to be 100% clear in what I am asking the embassy for.

I intend to email them saying as follows

[quote]“I intend to exercise my treaty rights in accordance with Article 3(2) (b) of the European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC states that the Beneficiaries entitled to a permit include,

“the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.â€

She would only be issued with a visa in accordance with Article 5 directive 2004/38EC, to facilitate entry into your intended country of resident.

Once you are there, a resident card bearing the description you state will be issued in accordance with Article 10 of directive 2004/38EC, and subject to the condition that you are exercising treaty rights

Obie wrote:She would only be issued with a visa in accordance with Article 5 directive 2004/38EC, to facilitate entry into your intended country of resident.

Once you are there, a resident card bearing the description you state will be issued in accordance with Article 10 of directive 2004/38EC, and subject to the condition that you are exercising treaty rights

Right,,,,, I’ve been confused about this. I thought the doc that an embassy would issue had to state Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen

Now I understand that is what the doc issued in Spain would say.

So what is the correct wording that I ask the embassy for in an email? Entry permit for residency later on? Lol or what?

Obie wrote:She would only be issued with a visa in accordance with Article 5 directive 2004/38EC, to facilitate entry into your intended country of resident.

Once you are there, a resident card bearing the description you state will be issued in accordance with Article 10 of directive 2004/38EC, and subject to the condition that you are exercising treaty rights

So you are saying anyone that has an EU girlfriend or boyfriend will be issued a visa in accordance to this Directive ?

So they issue a residence card for family members of an EU citizen to unmarried partners also ?

[b] Directive 2004/38EC Article 3(2)[/b] wrote:
2. Without prejudice to any right to free movement and
residence the persons concerned may have in their own right,
the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national
legislation, facilitate entry and residence for the following
persons:
(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality,
not falling under the definition in point 2 of Article 2 who,
in the country from which they have come, are dependants
or members of the household of the Union citizen having
the primary right of residence, or where serious health
grounds strictly require the personal care of the family
member by the Union citizen;
(b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable
relationship, duly attested.
The host Member State shall undertake an extensive examination
of the personal circumstances and shall justify any denial
of entry or residence to these people.

That is where the rights originate.

In regards to OP's question, i think an application for a normal Schengen visa should suffice for the purpose of entering into member state.

Please note that Spain did not implement this appropriately. They made provision for same sex partner and not for heterosexual unmarried partners.