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Maybe I'm dumb, but...

Immigration to European countries, don't post UK or Ireland related topics!

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cathycostarica
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Maybe I'm dumb, but...

Post by cathycostarica » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:57 am

what is a Schengen visa??????????????

Please go easy on me I'm new to this stuff!!!!

C.

scrudu
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Post by scrudu » Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:41 am

Definition: A Schengen visa allows its holder to move freely in all the member states of the European Union who signed the Shengen agreement within the validity of the visa.

The Schengen Space: At the moment there are 15 member countries: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain and Sweden.
read more at http://www.consulfrance-londres.org/art ... rticle=325

Christophe
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Re: Maybe I'm dumb, but...

Post by Christophe » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:46 am

cathycostarica wrote:what is a Schengen visa??????????????

Please go easy on me I'm new to this stuff!!!!

C.
Don't think that's dumb at all! It's also worth noting specifically that the UK and Ireland are not in the Schengen area (also known as the Schengen space) and have separate visa requirements and policies from the Schengen area countries.

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:12 am

If what you are indirectly asking is does your Costa Rican boyfriend need a Schengen visa, then the answer is no. Costa Ricans (for some strange reason known only to the Schengen authorities) do not require a Schengen visa to enter any of the Schengen countries despite Costa Rica being a third world country.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:24 am

Dawie wrote:Costa Rica being a third world country.
But Costa Rica isn't a "third world" country.
(probably depends on your definition of "third world" of course).

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:32 am

What I'm actually alluding to is the fact that there are countries much more developed and richer than Costa Rica (like my own, South Africa) whose citizens DO require Schengen visas. Needless to say this makes me very bitter especially when I see countries like Panama, Nicaragua, Malaysia etc on the list of countries who do not require a Schengen visa.

Bear in mind that South Africans are non-visa nationals for the UK, Ireland and Switzerland. I don't know what we did to piss off the Europeans.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:57 am

Dawie wrote:What I'm actually alluding to is the fact that there are countries much more developed and richer than Costa Rica (like my own, South Africa)
Per the CIA World Factbook, GDP per person on a PPP basis is US$11,100 in Costa Rica, and US$12,000 in South Africa. Not much difference at all.

Eligibility for visa free travel isn't solely based on relative incomes. Propensity to migrate (which often determines whether a country's passport is eligible for visa-free travel) is also based on stability of the country, the relative disparity of wealth, together with language and cultural factors.
Bear in mind that South Africans are non-visa nationals for the UK, Ireland and Switzerland. I don't know what we did to piss off the Europeans.
South Africans are also visa nationals for the U.S., Canada and Australia. But not for New Zealand.

Kayalami
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Post by Kayalami » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:30 pm

Dawie,

In addition to JAJ's comments it is also the case that visa policy is effected by the principle of lobbying. For example the new EU states are pushing Washington to include them in the Visa Waiver Programme in particular Poland with representation at top government level. The same happened when the UK government announced proposed radical reforms of the Working Holiday Visa Programme with sentiments including the scrapping of the scheme - the Oz and Kiwi governments held high level talks with the relevant ministers here to ensure the scheme was not impacted upon such that its lost its benefits for their nationals. IMHO I feel the RSA government has had the challenge of history with associated isolation making it difficult to lobby effectively.

jjustyy
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Post by jjustyy » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:52 pm

Dawie, my wife is from Mauritius, which has a higher GDP than South Africa ($13,100), yet she needs a visa for practically everywhere. There is always somewhere which has better visa rules than your own I'm afraid.

cathycostarica
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Post by cathycostarica » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:24 pm

Dawie wrote:If what you are indirectly asking is does your Costa Rican boyfriend need a Schengen visa, then the answer is no. Costa Ricans (for some strange reason known only to the Schengen authorities) do not require a Schengen visa to enter any of the Schengen countries despite Costa Rica being a third world country.
Dawie I certainly am not trying to ask an indirect question - what would be the point for Gods sake? If I have a question to ask I come straight out with it!!!! And he's not my boyfriend!!! And by the way, Costa Rica is doing extremely well thankyou very much - you should visit it sometime! You don't need a visa for up to 3 months!!!!!!

Wow you really are pissed off with the world arent you???

joesoap101
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Post by joesoap101 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:13 pm

I think much of the problem is political. Also South Africa unilaterally abolised visa requirements for most european countries so these european countries didnt bother with reciprocity. The reality is that most South Africans travelling around the world are white, the South African government knows this and therefore wont lobby any government regarding visa reciprocity and the fact that south african officials travel visa free to most of these countries, so there is no incentive.

The reason why south american countries are on the schengen white list is simple: Spain. Spain had visa free agreements with many former colonies and naturally when schengen was introduced the member countries 'standardised' these lists. South Africans were required to obtain visas due to the political situation in the country so the Schengen agreement today resembles the historical position of its member states... in other words if you travelled visa free to a couple of those countries before schengen you were in, however qualifying to join the schengen white list is much more difficult. Its ironic how the eastern europeans are up in arms about the US visa waiver which they dont qualify for, but yet demand they be included. what hipocrisy!!!

The reality is that South Africans can travel to many countries without a visa, with europe/north america being the only exception. We could travel visa free to mexico and canada but pressure from the US government changed this.

It is a bit ironic that we can travel to the UK Ireland and Switzerland visa free, and this has been the case for many years, and clearly this proves that we're no threat to those countries.

Many of the south american countries may be included on the visa free list for the Schengen region but try entering the Schengen zone on one of those passports and you will generally be quizzed and question to a greater extent than say a canadian.

Dawie, I used to get upset about the visa issue but we dont have much to complain about. I've never been refused a visa for any country and I dont personally know any South african who has been... Its also worth considering that Pretoria has the highest number of embassies in the world after Washington, someone has to finance this and its quite a cash cow seeing that south africans just cough it up so easily for visas, we're an easy target in this regard, again because they know the SA government has the issue so far back on the back burner!

Can you imagine how the Indians, Chinese, Pakistanis etc feel? Compared to their travel documents a South African passport has excellent visa free access!

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:14 am

I agree with you everything you say and have always suspected as much. I guess it's the cross we must bear for our apartheid sins!

Anyway, I am becoming a British citizen soon so I don't have to put up with it for too much longer!
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

RobinLondon
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Post by RobinLondon » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:56 am

One thing I've noticed but have never been able to understand is why Schengen countries never say *anything* to me whenever I enter. Sometimes I enter with a Canadian passport, sometimes with an American one. But each time, they never say a thing. Not what the purpose is of my visit, not how long I'm staying. Nothing. They just flip through the passport, put the stamp in and that's it.

What I don't understand is the relative level of scrutiny I go through each time I enter the UK. Both before I was resident here and currently, I always get asked many, many questions. And it's the same for other US and Canadian visitors as well.

What is it about UK immigration control that makes it so rigorous in comparison to Schengen for North Americans. More specifically, why don't the Continentals quiz us to the same extent? I'm sure there's quite a few North Americans overstaying in Europe, but it seems like they don't care. beloved may be one clear explanation, but are there intertwined economic arguments to be made as well? For instance, are benefits systems so impenetrable in Schengen to access that a cursory passport check is all they need?

***

After having a think, it's probably because Schengen has exit controls whereas the UK doesn't. It will be interesting to see when exit checks get firmly and consistently in place whether or not the UK immigration inspectors get more mellow.

Christophe
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Post by Christophe » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:12 pm

Interesting question. UK immigration is relatively rigorous for everyone who is subject to immigration control - US and Canadian visitors probably get off relatively lightly, but no one is allowed through completely 'on the nod' as a rule.

This relatively rigorous approach to immigration is a feature of many/most countries that have a basically Anglo-Saxon background - the USA, Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand all subject visitors to immigration questioning at the point of entry. In part, I think that this is because these countries have a tradition of firm controls but virtually complete freedom of movement for people who are already inside the country. For instance, in many European countries, especially in southern Europe, everyone is required to register their address with the police or some other authority. Precise details vary from country to country, but for instance when an Italian hotel keeper takes hold of your passport overnight it is so that he can enter your details on a registration card. There is no requirement in Anglo-Saxon countries to register, or be registered, in this way. It is perhaps telling that people are much more likely to be questioned at immigration control posts in the Nordic countries, which similarly have a broad tradition of complete freedom of movement without any internal checks, than in sourthern European countries.

Allied to this, in some cases, is the need for identity cards or similar in many European countries - checks on people, either routinely or on a one-off basis, are much more likely in much of continental Europe than in the UK, the USA, Australia... Despite news to the contrary, one is really very unlikely to be stopped for no obvious reason in the UK (or the USA, or Australia...), and even if asked for identity, it is unlikely that one would be asked to prove one's immigration status or right to be in the country.

Another reason for more apparently stringent immigration controls in countries such as the UK, the USA, Australia is probably the primacy of the English language. A person from abroad is much more likely to have, or to want to have, some sort of working knowledge of English than of, say, French or German, never mind one of the less widely known European languages. Therefore, it is assumed, that person is more likely to want to try to settle or work illegally in the UK (or the USA, or Australia...) than in France or Germany or Estonia... Broadly speaking, I suspect that this assumption is true.

Anyway, just some thoughts...

RobinLondon
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Post by RobinLondon » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:48 pm

What a great, well-considered response, Christophe. The points you raise--from Anglo-Saxon ideas of internal movement to the perceived utility of the English language--are very engaging points. And your inclusion of the Nordic response is personally interesting as well. The only time I ever was actually questioned entering Schengen was in Norway, although the immigration officer seemed a bit embarrassed to ask how long I was staying. "They make me ask at least something", she complained.

Rogerio
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Post by Rogerio » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:41 am

jjustyy wrote:Dawie, my wife is from Mauritius, which has a higher GDP than South Africa ($13,100), yet she needs a visa for practically everywhere. There is always somewhere which has better visa rules than your own I'm afraid.
... adding to this, I'm Brazilian and we dont require visas to most countries in the world, including the EU (thankfully) - but we do for the US, as we're not in the VWP.

I'm certainly not complaining - UK & Brazil passports - great combo!

Brazil GDP PPP (CIA) US$8,400

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Post by Panalex » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:18 pm

Dawie wrote:What I'm actually alluding to is the fact that there are countries much more developed and richer than Costa Rica (like my own, South Africa) whose citizens DO require Schengen visas. Needless to say this makes me very bitter especially when I see countries like Panama, Nicaragua, Malaysia etc on the list of countries who do not require a Schengen visa.

Bear in mind that South Africans are non-visa nationals for the UK, Ireland and Switzerland. I don't know what we did to piss off the Europeans.
South Africa may look developed in white quarters. Unlike Panamanians who return back to their country after the first snowstorm, blacks from Southafricans townships may be tempted to stay in Europe to work.

sakura
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Post by sakura » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:40 pm

Can I just throw in that showing income per capita for certain countries proves nothing considering the very high levels of income inequality in many countries of the "south"(especially in Latin America).

Equatorial Guinea's GDP/ca is US$44,000, but who really believes that?

I know, old thread, but someone else opened it up!

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Post by archigabe » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:40 pm

Dawie wrote:What I'm actually alluding to is the fact that there are countries much more developed and richer than Costa Rica (like my own, South Africa) whose citizens DO require Schengen visas. Needless to say this makes me very bitter especially when I see countries like Panama, Nicaragua, Malaysia etc on the list of countries who do not require a Schengen visa.

Bear in mind that South Africans are non-visa nationals for the UK, Ireland and Switzerland. I don't know what we did to piss off the Europeans.
I think it's due to the fact that plenty of Non-South Africans are using the S.A passport to enter U.K and Ireland without visas...In fact I was told by some African friends in Ireland that they keep running into 'South Africans' with thick Nigerian/West African accents...maybe they are in possession of fake passports, or passports are easy to purchase in South Africa...Adding to this, stories like this aren't going to help much either.

South Africans face visa curb to shut terrorists’ route to Britain
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/p ... 301166.ece

Fairtrade
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Post by Fairtrade » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:03 pm

It is the South Africa government that have been handing out passports to any one that is Not South African.

Now it has created a problem where the New South African passport is worthless because anyone from Africa can travel to SA and buy a fake SA passport and claim they are SA when in fact they are not :evil:

Countries like Britain is considering asking visas for the first time since the forming of the Union of SA in 1910 and rightly so! If you a real S.A. citizen then you have nothing to hide so the visa shouldn't stop you from travelling abroad.

South Africa is now going down the same route as the rest of Africa. Corruption is rife and it is embarrassing to say but you could have travelled further on your South African passport during Apartheid than during the new so called "Rainbow nation" South Africa.

Africa here we come!

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