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Dependent Spouse

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Marriage | Unmarried Partners | Fiancé/e | Ancestry

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p2kin
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Dependent Spouse

Post by p2kin » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:03 pm

Dear Friends,

I was going through rules for FLR-M for my wife, she's currently on T1-G but now wanting to shift to spouse of BC. (Please don't question as why she doesn't want to continue for ILR etc.. ).

Situation is like this, We'll be applying for her FLR-M in Oct-14, but I'll have finished with my permanent employment in Sep-14 & started my own company and working as sole director of it. I can show more than £18600 in last 6 months from my salaried employment which will end on 30th Sep 2014. Financial threshold wise, there is no problem.

I'm just not sure since at the point of application, I'll have a new company (with no transactions pertaining to salary/dividends to show.. just a temporary contract agreement..), so whether I should apply using Category B or Category F (self-employed)?

I'm bit confused what route to follow & what documents to submit. Can you all please guide me so that I can collect all required documents in say next week or so?

Regards,
p2kin

MPH80
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by MPH80 » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:23 pm

*edited* scrapping the advice I just wrote. Replacing with the below.

I don't believe you'll be able to apply using your income. Self employment categories require a trading year recorded for the tax records. Employment categories require you to be currently earning that amount in that employment. You can't use category B for your self employment as you're the sole director of the company.

The one thing you can do if you're heading into contracting (which is what it seems like) is to use an umbrella company which means you remain employed and can then use category B. If you use your own company - you'll have to go Cat F or G.

However, could you apply using your wife's income?

p2kin
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by p2kin » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:58 am

Hmm.. I thought so too.. I couldn't get any matching answer relating to my case. If I have to use self employment, I'll have to wait for at least an year full.

I can not use umbrella company just for this application purpose as my company has all contract & other things signed up. That will only complicate things.

I was more thinking of using my last 12 months salary + saving for financial threshold and showing that I've very recently started my own company (on the day on application).

It's bit weird that my case can not be fit into any of category completely.

I can use my wife's income, but as I said, my income should suffice too.

Any more ideas? how to present the case?

p2kin
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by p2kin » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:17 am

Another thing I just noticed that, I can probably use Category B as I'm not intending to use any income from my recently formed company.

It's just to show home office that I'm still working (although started just from 1st Oct 2014) now for my new company. But income would be shown what I have earned in last say 12 months.. correct me if I'm wrong.

Obie
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by Obie » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:29 pm

To use category B, you need to show that at present, you have a job that will earn you the appropriate threshold.

You cannot use Cat B and cat F in the manner in which you are seeking to use it.

If your wife's income surpasses the threshold, i see no reason why you are adamant to use yours only.

Provided of course your wife's earning was lawfully derived.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

MPH80
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by MPH80 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:54 pm

Obie's completely right. Category B has two tests: has been earning over 12 months and is earning now. You fail the second test so you can't qualify for category B.

To pick up on one thing you said about using an umbrella company - if you went down that road, the contracts would all have to be moved to the umbrella company and you become a standard employee of that company. That would leave you in a category B position (currently employed, income over the threshold, income over the last 12 months over the threshold).

So it would mean dumping your limited company.

Oh - and remember you're going to have to repeat all this in 30 months - so treat your company accounts correctly.

So given you mention savings - you're left with two options:

1) Use your wife's income - and why wouldn't you?
2) Use your savings exclusively if they are £62,500 or more.

M.

p2kin
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by p2kin » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:46 am

Obie, MPH80,

Thanks a lot for your valuable insight. I'll certainly use my wife's income. That's definitely back up plan.

But, just for knowledge sake & better understanding, If my wife wasn't working/wasn't earning enough, what position I would be in? Solutions you suggested above would be like trying to fit my case into existing framework. Where as I was trying to find what would be solution for me (or someone whose wife isn't working).

Technically speaking, I have earned certain amount over last 6 months that is sufficient to surpass threshold. I'm in employment too (fix term/contract) that pays even more than what I have earned over last 6 months. So I'm just not sure how to put my case.

Does this mean there is flaw in the Home Office's categories or is it just I haven't understood properly? I'd inclined to say later..

Have a look at Annex_FM_1_7_Financial_Requirement.pdf in section 5.3.1 it says category B can be used by someone who works as a contractor. Also, on the page 25 it also gives an example C
The applicant’s partner lives in the UK and is a fashion photographer who does short-term contract work for several agencies. He has periods without work and the amount he is paid varies from job to job. Over the last 12 months he has earned a total of £20,000. In the most recent 6 months his gross earnings are as follows: £3500, £0, £0, £2300, £3400, £500. The application is made on the basis of meeting the financial requirement under Category B non-salaried employment.

Under part (1) of Category B, the applicant’s partner’s current annual employment income
= (gross earnings over the last 6 months, divided by 6) multiplied by 12
= ((3500+0+0+2300+3400+500) ÷ 6) x 12
= (9,700 ÷ 6) x 12
= £19,400

Under part (2) of Category B, the applicant’s partner’s actual employment income over last 12 months
= £20,000

So both part (1) and part (2) of Category B are met.
In above example, there is a gray area when it says, "fashion photographer who does short-term contract work for several agencies". One can interpret it as using umbrella company as suggested by MPH80.

I'm tempted to say that I'm definitely lacking understanding about which category addresses my situation than moulding my case in to B/F/G category.

Rayking
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by Rayking » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:18 am

The problem isn't the fact that you're employed.it will be inability to provide evidence required. Even though you can provide proofs of employment before you started self employment route, you can't provide for self employment you've got at present.
May be if you had known,you would have waited before starting the self employment route midway to your application.
Your income isn't the issue but evidence required.
So,I don't see any flaw in that sense.

p2kin
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by p2kin » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:25 am

I agree, and hence there must be some provision in my opinion for cases like me. because this is real life scenario.

Mind well, in my opinion, since I'm not claiming any income from self-employment, I don't need to provide income related docs, only those which states I'm employed with possible earning of more than threshold/my permanent employment earning... (I guess contract agreement & terms)

Again, this is what my point of view is. Not sure if logically it makes sens to others & more importantly to case worker.

MPH80
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by MPH80 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:57 am

The problem is that you're not employed - you're self employed.

Category B has a specific provision which allows directors of limited companies to be considered employed for the purposes of category B - but this doesn't apply to anyone who is running a firm with a limited directorship or where the shareholders are primarily family. Why? Because it's too easy to cook the books.

Once you are self employed - you require 12 months of evidence to be able to apply. This isn't a hole - this is deliberate. It's the same as those students who come straight out of Uni and want to apply before they have 6 months employment history - they can't.

There are three potential scenarios we're dealing with when it comes to your example of the photographer above:

1) He's running his own limited company - then he wouldn't be able to declare himself employed and would have to use F or G.
2) He's using an umbrella company - in which case he's effectively on a 0 hours contract and could use category B
3) He's doing short term employment contracts - in which case he's employed.

So why does self employment require 12 months evidence? In short - because it's open to abuse.

Let's work an example - let's say you've just lost your job and you want to bring your wife over. Without 12 months of evidence you could walk into a bank with a vaguely credible business plan and secure yourself an overdraft and open yourself a limited company - you then proceed to pay yourself the required salary for 6 months using up the overdraft with no income coming in. After 6 months you'd submit the application to UKBA, a month later close the company - piff paff poof - you have a visa, no debt (because it folded with the limited company) and you're laughing. 12 months requires you to pay all the taxes off to UKBA etc.

Let's do another example - you and your friend both have companies as sole traders (not limited in this case) - but yours has no income right now. Your friend pays your company (effectively you) enough money to cover the income gap and you apply to UKBA claiming employment and the relative income. After the visa is dealt with - you pay your mate back ... piff paff poof ... no one pays any tax and you've got the visa on no income. Now this example works with savings between individuals - but it's much harder to achieve as 6 months income is only around £9k where the savings is £62.5k.

So UKBA require anyone claiming income from self employment to have 12 months evidence to help prevent this kind of trickery. Trying to pull those over a tax year will result in someone else having to audit the accounts. You'll also note that the first one is prevented through the use of 'ongoing trading evidence' required.

So why doesn't self employment allow you to claim to be employed? Simple - if you're in charge of the firm - you can pay yourself what you like regardless of how well the firm is trading. So you can provide income to UKBA that isn't actually there. If you're the director of a company with lots of directors who are acting as checks and balances - this is MUCH harder to achieve hence the provision in category B I mentioned earlier.

All good fun - but it's the reason category F and G exist for those who are self employed.

The right route for yourself would have been:

a) Not dropping out of employment or
b) Doing it a year ago.

M.

Obie
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by Obie » Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:44 pm

The Rules make provision for employed person in Category A or B.

It makes provision for self employed in F and G.

Self Employed person will have to wait a bit longer than newly employed person, to sponsor their partner.

The rules are sometimes unfair, but it is the rules.

As the previous poster stated, you are self-employed, therefore your can only rely on category F, or G is you want to average of your current and previous year's earning.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

philippinesuk
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by philippinesuk » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:54 pm

This sounds a bit similar to my situation.

I have been in full time employment 50k salary
I am changing in January to another full time job 60k and also applying for spouse visa in January.

I also got offered a £400 a day contract job and was going to take this and setup a ltd company. However there seems to be no clear rule on these cases.
From the forums people seem to be saying there will be a problem with taking the contract and setting up a ltd company whilst applying for Visa as you will have no records yet of Money coming into account.

However in some ways thats a bit crazy

What people are suggesting is
UKBA will accept my written contract from a full time employer saying they will pay me salaried 60k but won't accept a contract that says I will get paid 400 a day as this I would put through a ltd company and UKBAwant the accounts from that LTD company which of course I wouldn't have as it's new.

Obie
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by Obie » Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:42 pm

Point of Correction.

It is not what people are saying.

We are simply quoting from UKBA guidance.

The bad guys are not us, but the people who made the rules.

No need having a go at us.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Wanderer
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by Wanderer » Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:48 pm

philippinesuk wrote: What people are suggesting is
UKBA will accept my written contract from a full time employer saying they will pay me salaried 60k but won't accept a contract that says I will get paid 400 a day as this I would put through a ltd company and UKBAwant the accounts from that LTD company which of course I wouldn't have as it's new.
Which is fair enough when you consider the multitude of people that have walked off without paying tax and spunked the lot on a lavish life style. Believe me I've seen it.

Tax first, visa later....
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

philippinesuk
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by philippinesuk » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:20 pm

Sorry Obie wasn't trying to attack people here I know it's the UKBA who make the decisions, and appreciate your help.

Sorry might seem a bit greedy, but suddenly got offered a 400 a day job so would have taken it were it not for the fact it might hurt my chances of us getting the Visa

Obie
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by Obie » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:30 pm

Sorry about your predicament.

Have you not got savings?

If you have a saving of £62,500, then you may be fine.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

philippinesuk
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by philippinesuk » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:35 pm

Unfortunately not 62k.
It's not a big deal I can't complain 2 job offers within 1 week.
The Full time Permanent one I have already said to them I'll start in January is a good job, and can't moan, with bonuses it comes in at about 65k so very good.
I can always go contracting later on when I'm sure I'll have the 1 year of paperwork for when we need to renew the Visa after 2.5 years.

philippinesuk
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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by philippinesuk » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:39 pm

Lastly sorry, not sure if anyone knows this, but some people seem to be saying (especially on other boards) it's not really advisable to even to change jobs, I'm kind of hoping that as the new job is a large corporate full paperwork, I've already got the full terms and salary on proper documents it should be fine and seen as not so risky?

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Re: Dependent Spouse

Post by Obie » Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:41 pm

65K is pretty decent by many people's standard in the UK.

You will have no difficulty in meeting the financial requirement.

I hope she gets the visa. These people can be quite funny, they like to put applicants and immigrant in a back-footing position
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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