Decision letter received today

After 6 months waiting for d-visa and 7 month waiting for eu1, today my wife received a negative response to her eu residency application.

It's the usual "applicants must submit lawful residence in another EU Member State prior to arrival"

They also write "According to our records, you were originally granted permission to remian in the State on visitors conditions until 31 January, 2007. It is open to you to return to the GNIB, 13/14 Burgh Quay, Dublin 2 to enquire about renewing same."

Do any of you know what they are likely to say at GNIB. My feeling is that there arent going to be very helpful.

Erik84 wrote:After 6 months waiting for d-visa and 7 month waiting for eu1, today my wife received a negative response to her eu residency application.

It's the usual "applicants must submit lawful residence in another EU Member State prior to arrival"

They also write "According to our records, you were originally granted permission to remian in the State on visitors conditions until 31 January, 2007. It is open to you to return to the GNIB, 13/14 Burgh Quay, Dublin 2 to enquire about renewing same."

Do any of you know what they are likely to say at GNIB. My feeling is that there arent going to be very helpful.

There is a contradiction here about the entry visa.D-Visa is different from a Visitor Visa.Please specify what is written on the initial entry visa.
For record purposes Visitor visa are not extendable.
I suggest you make an appeal to the refusal decision.Because in a recent EU petition committee communication,there is a plan to bring Ireland to ECJ.Seee below....

In order to comply with provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC, Ireland brought into force the European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) Regulations 2006. Regulation 3(2) of the 2006 Regulations excludes from its personal scope all family members of a Union citizen (including same-gender partners) who were not lawfully resident in another Member State before seeking to enter Ireland to reside there with the Union citizen.
The Commission believes that such an interpretation of Community law on the right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the European Union, based on the judgment of the European Court of Justice in case Akrich , cannot be applied to all family members seeking family reunification with a Union citizen who has exercised his or her right to move and reside freely.
Such interpretation is supported by recent judgment of the Court in case Jia where the Court ruled that Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit to nationals of a non-Member State, who are members of the family of a Union citizen who has exercised his or her right of free movement, subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State.
The Commission received recently a number of complaints concerning refusal by the Irish authorities of residence card applications of third country family members of Union citizens residing in Ireland on the grounds that the family members have not resided in a Member State before coming to Ireland. A case is pending before the Irish High Court on legality of Regulation 3(2) of the 2006 Regulations. The judgment is scheduled for 15 June 2007.
The Commission envisages addressing the compliance of Regulation 3(2) with Community law within the overall examination of compliance of the Irish legislation with Directive 2004/38/EC, as interpreted by the Court in case Jia. The examination is expected to be completed shortly.

brownbonno wrote:
There is a contradiction here about the entry visa.D-Visa is different from a Visitor Visa.Please specify what is written on the initial entry visa.
For record purposes Visitor visa are not extendable.
I suggest you make an appeal to the refusal decision.Because in a recent EU petition committee communication,there is a plan to bring Ireland to ECJ.Seee below....

In order to comply with provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC, Ireland brought into force the European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) Regulations 2006. Regulation 3(2) of the 2006 Regulations excludes from its personal scope all family members of a Union citizen (including same-gender partners) who were not lawfully resident in another Member State before seeking to enter Ireland to reside there with the Union citizen.
The Commission believes that such an interpretation of Community law on the right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the European Union, based on the judgment of the European Court of Justice in case Akrich , cannot be applied to all family members seeking family reunification with a Union citizen who has exercised his or her right to move and reside freely.
Such interpretation is supported by recent judgment of the Court in case Jia where the Court ruled that Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit to nationals of a non-Member State, who are members of the family of a Union citizen who has exercised his or her right of free movement, subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State.
The Commission received recently a number of complaints concerning refusal by the Irish authorities of residence card applications of third country family members of Union citizens residing in Ireland on the grounds that the family members have not resided in a Member State before coming to Ireland. A case is pending before the Irish High Court on legality of Regulation 3(2) of the 2006 Regulations. The judgment is scheduled for 15 June 2007.
The Commission envisages addressing the compliance of Regulation 3(2) with Community law within the overall examination of compliance of the Irish legislation with Directive 2004/38/EC, as interpreted by the Court in case Jia. The examination is expected to be completed shortly.

The visa says:

VIOSA
Valid for: IRELAND
From: 15-10-2006 To: 14-01-2007
Type of visa: D
Number of entries: 1
etc


Ok, guess it's time to get a lawyer. Where did you find the text you are quoting from by the way?

An additional problem/opportunity in my case is that my wife and I are going to Sweden in a couple of days. I'm Swedish and my wife obtained a residency permit to Sweden after applying for EU1 to Ireland. The visit to Sweden is however only intended to be temporary - we do want to live in Ireland, and I have a good job here I wouldnt want to leave.

Anyhow, the upside is that my wife will register as a resident in Sweden, which if rules remain unchanged might help for a future EU1 application. The downside is that if appealing I guess it would be good living in Ireland and not elsewhere.

And the big downside is of course that it looks like we will for a while live in different countries - she in Sweden and me in Ireland. I hope she'll at least get tourist visas for Ireland.

Try and put in your appeal before you travel to Sweden.Your wife can actually travel with you back to Ireland without a visa provided you have marriage certificate during the trip(according to Directive 2004/38/EC).The EU law is very straight forward that you may not need a lawyer to fight EU1 appeal.
Do you mean your wife have a Sweden visa or residence permit.When is the permit/visa going to expire ?

It's a residence permit that expires in April 2009. But if she lives there at that time it shouldnt be a problem to renew it to a 5 year residence permit.

Are you sure the an air company will let her board a flight to Ireland with no visa and just a marriage certificate? Arent air companies subject to fines if they transport passengers without entry permits - I'm afraid they dont take any chances. Then the next hurdle is the Garda at the Dublin airport - and they know very little of EU law unfortunately.

The airlines are aware of the directives.For the Garda,allow them to swim in the big ocean of ignorance and at the end of the day your wife will be allowed into the state.
Here is the example....

DIrective 2004/38/EC makes travelling easier for family members who
previously had to have an entry visa
No more visas for visits to the United Kingdom or any other Member State that does
not yet participate in Schengen when the family members who do not hold nationality
of a Member State have a residence card.
Angelo (24), an Italian studying biophysics in the Czech Republic, and his Russian
wife Svetlana (23) are planning to visit their friends in Glasgow for two weeks in
summer. When they called the UK embassy in Prague to arrange for a visa, they
were surprised to learn that the new EU directive on free movement exempted
Svetlana from the visa requirement as she holds a Czech residence card.

I have now read the relevant part of 2004/38/EC together with my wife, and yes, it is indeed very clear. To play the devil's advocate I'd say that my wife's EU treaty rights are not respected by Ireland as of the rejection of the EU1 application - then maybe this possibility of travelling without visa can also be considered rejected.

Anyhow - today is the big appeal letter writing day. I am thinking about including a phrase that goes something like this: "Beside the legal issues I find it morally questionable to prevent a law-abiding married couple - married for several years - from living together."

Ok, I just called DOJ this morning, and the rep told me that my decision should be made this week (I applied Jan. 2007). She said I should receive my letter by the end of the week or the beginning of next week at the latest. What do you think the odds are that this will actually happen??? I am 99.99% sure that I am NOT going to get a residence card....but a Stamp 4 would be nice....it's a start. What is the difference between people who get a Stamp 4 and people who don't???

BigAppleWoodenShoe wrote:Ok, I just called DOJ this morning, and the rep told me that my decision should be made this week (I applied Jan. 2007). She said I should receive my letter by the end of the week or the beginning of next week at the latest. What do you think the odds are that this will actually happen??? I am 99.99% sure that I am NOT going to get a residence card....but a Stamp 4 would be nice....it's a start. What is the difference between people who get a Stamp 4 and people who don't???

What I have noticed is that they seem to be purposely dragging it out for the whole 6 months before making a decision. I find that unconscionable. I don't have any idea, I just hope it works out for you

Big Apple,
I don't know the difference either, in my case, I have EUfam4, not stamp4.
At GNIB, I didn't have to pay anything to get this EUFam4, I'm not sure, but maybe Stamp4 you have to pay registration fee €100. Also my EUFam4 is for 5 years.[/quote]

Iam also wating for a decision on my EU1, I am Peruvian and did not reside in another EU state. I called last week and the DOJ said that they were gonna reissue the letter since the one they already sent was returned. Today I called again and a different operator said that the letter was never sent and it was still for supervisor's signature. I applied on November 2006... it is taking a long time to make a decision. The operator said that if I did not reside in another EU state, I was gonna get denied, so I will just have to star getting ready to appeal... do you know anyone who appealed and got residency?

They also write "According to our records, you were originally granted permission to remian in the State on visitors conditions until 31 January, 2007. It is open to you to return to the GNIB, 13/14 Burgh Quay, Dublin 2 to enquire about renewing same."

Do any of you know what they are likely to say at GNIB. My feeling is that there arent going to be very helpful.

When I went in to the GNIB with my "residency-denied but Stamp 4 for 2 years granted" letter, it was clear the guy behind the window had never seen such a thing and had no idea what to do with it. And this was with a letter that said specifically I have been given permission to have a Stamp 4, valid for working and living in the ROI. If you go in with a letter that is as vague as yours, I just don't know what they'd do. I wouldn't be hopeful. But go in and ask, and then ask for a supervisor if the person doesn't seem to know what they're doing, or won't give you a renewal.

At GNIB, I didn't have to pay anything to get this EUFam4, I'm not sure, but maybe Stamp4 you have to pay registration fee €100. Also my EUFam4 is for 5 years.

I didn't have to pay for my 2-year Stamp 4. You're not supposed to have any fees for EU-related stuff. My husband and I were discussing strategies for raising a stink if they tried to charge us, but they didn't.
Egg, your 5-year stamp would seem to imply that they actually followed the Directive in your case and gave you the 5-year residency that they're supposed to. Don't know the details of your case, but that's a good sign.

Hi Platinum,
yes, in my case I got 5 years residency. and sorry for wrong info, stamp4 didn't need to pay fee, I wasn't sure.
I still don't know the difference between EUFam4 (mine) and Stamp4.

egg wrote:Hi Platinum,
yes, in my case I got 5 years residency. and sorry for wrong info, stamp4 didn't need to pay fee, I wasn't sure.
I still don't know the difference between EUFam4 (mine) and Stamp4.

maybe the answer can be found here?
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categ ... in-ireland

thanks for info greengrass,
I got it. EUFam4 is Spouses and dependants of EU nationals who have exercised their right to move to and live in Ireland.
thanks!

Santiago, maybe you won't be denied...maybe you will get a Stamp 4. If you can work with a Stamp 4, it's really not so bad and it will buy you more time. Still, if you didn't do so already, you should document a complaint with Solvit...the Irish branch, but also the branch from your husband's home.

I am so anxious about the outcome of my application...I took egg's advice and sent in additional documents (proof of my husband's new work contract, copies of my health insurance cards, and a letter from a university willing to hire me part-time if I get a visa stamp). I hope this will help because it seems so DAMN arbitrary who gets a residence card, who gets a Stamp, and who gets denied everything.

Erik84 wrote:An additional problem/opportunity in my case is that my wife and I are going to Sweden in a couple of days. I'm Swedish and my wife obtained a residency permit to Sweden after applying for EU1 to Ireland. The visit to Sweden is however only intended to be temporary - we do want to live in Ireland, and I have a good job here I wouldnt want to leave.

Fantastic!

I assume you would like to stay in Ireland. If you do, then be very careful to get her passport stamped on the way into Sweden, and stamped on the way out of Sweden. Also keep other evidence of her being in Sweden, like maybe a quick photo outside the Irish embassy??

You have now have the period of residency in an EU country, which is incorrectly required by Ireland. (see http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/06 ... -question/ for the legal basis of your residency in EU law, Irish law, and British law).

You will have to force the Irish Justice department to notice that you have had residency in another EU country, but I am pretty sure they will eventually notice it in the end (since it is Irish as well as EU law).

I would be happy to assist with drafting a letter to the department of justice if you would like. I have done something similar before with the Irish, and they backed down from their ridiculous demands.

Finally, if you are returning to Ireland without an entry visa, then you should carry the out-of-hours emergency consular phone number of the Swedish embassy in Dublin. And of course your marriage certificate. And a copy of the Directive and the Irish SI (from http://eumovement.wordpress.com/info-ireland/) Stand firm, don't let them bully you, and write down names of anyone who gives you a hard time.

Thanxs Bigapple, I have a question, what is Solvit? I contacted the MRCI, they give advice and also help giving information on the documents required for the appeal. I really would like to get out of this waiting period, it is frustrating!!! I will take your advice and send more documents, it seems like they haven't made a decision on my case yet and I applied on November 2006.
Hope it all works out for you as well

Santiago,
See here for SOLVIT.
http://www.ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/about/index_en.htm
http://www.ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_en.htm

Thanxs for the information, I just received a letter from the DOJ and it said that I need to prove that I resided in other state so a resident card cannot be granted... Gosh!!! 8 months without being able to work for this??? My wife and I are going to appeal, I will stop by the MRCI to see what I have to do. Do you know what are the procedures for appealing? is it worth to appeal? need advice in this matter. My wife is already getting in touch with SOLVIT so thank you very much for the information.

We appealed end of March/beginning of April, and haven't heard a word from them so far. We even sent another registered letter a month ago to ask for an update, but haven't heard anything either.

We now cancelled our pending application, as we moved to Northern Ireland. I asked them to confirm this... not sure how many months we will have to wait for that.

santiago1974 wrote:Thanxs for the information, I just received a letter from the DOJ and it said that I need to prove that I resided in other state so a resident card cannot be granted... Gosh!!! 8 months without being able to work for this??? My wife and I are going to appeal, I will stop by the MRCI to see what I have to do. Do you know what are the procedures for appealing? is it worth to appeal? need advice in this matter. My wife is already getting in touch with SOLVIT so thank you very much for the information.

What nationality are you? Have you and your wife together visited any other EU countries since April 2006? In which case you have already been resident in another member state.

Dear Dsab85:
It is terrible how the system works in this country, they did not get back to you in such a long time, when the appeal is supossed to take from 4 to 6 weeks, at least that is what it says on the web page.
Tha does not give us any hope but it will definitely buy some time to do something different as you did by going to Northern Ireland. We will appeal and see what happens...It is ridiculuos to have people waiting, and not respecting the Free Movement o Persons EU treaty.
The only reason why we decided to move here was due to the fact that I do not speak Slovak and my wife does not speak Spanish, plus we have some friends here so it was supposed to make it easier for us to begin life in Europe, now I think we made a wrong decision. Anyways gotta back to the drawing board and start planning our future again.
What documents were you required for the appeal? Thanxs

Dear Directive/2004/38/EC:
What nationality are you? Have you and your wife together visited any other EU countries since April 2006? In which case you have already been resident in another member state.

I am Peruvian and my wife is Slovak, we haven't been to any EU country besides Ireland, we met worked and live in the US from 2002 til 2005 ( H2B and J1 visas) and got married in Peru on April 2006. I stayed in Peru while my wife settle in Ireland and I came here and applied on November 2006.

HURRAH! I finally received my letter from DOJ today!!! I wasn't granted residence, but I did get a Stamp 4, which permits me to reside and work in Ireland. For me, that's better than nothing, at least for my situation! I don't have the time right now, but I am going to write out everything I did. Maybe something helped me get a Stamp 4 rather than just an outright denial. Wishing you all the best!!!