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Refused to board with Uk Permanent Residence Card

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fezghoula
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Refused to board with Uk Permanent Residence Card

Post by fezghoula » Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:58 pm

Hello I'm writing as I'm hoping to get some help and guidance and there seems to be some really knowledgeable people here.
Yesterday we were refused to board easyjet plane flying from London Gatwick to Krakow (Poland)
Little of background. I'm polish nationality my husband is moroccan. We've been living together in Uk for nearly 8 years. He first got Family Permit, then Residence Card for Family of EEA National, and in 2013 he was issued with Permanent Residence Card.
Now we already travelled once visa free with his Residence Card for Family of EEA National and there was no problem but seems like this time because his residence card was lacking any 'links' to me (Eea national) they didn't let us fly.
I did read multiple threads and to be honest I'm getting really confused. I read the thread 'Article 10 vs article 20' which basically conclusion is that the permanent residence card can't be giving you any less right than the Residence Card for Family of EEA National. But seems like it does.
I did phone polish consulate and the lady over the phone told me that his status in UK changed and he's no more here as a spouse of EEA National (but rather he was issued Permanent Residence Card because he was here for over 5 years).
What can we do now? Are we right or wrong?
It was really horrible and humiliating experience and i feel bad that i put my husband through it by not checking whether he's allowed to travel visa free.
I really appreciate your help.

Donutz
Member
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:13 pm

Re: Refused to board with Uk Permanent Residence Card

Post by Donutz » Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:45 pm

Blame the poor British card, as obviously your status and that of your spouse cannot be devalued. He remains the spouse/family member of you, an EU national exercising freedom of movement. A proper UK design would maintain clear family relation and EU-familymember starus on the card... You may wish to contact Solvit.

acme4242
Senior Member
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:03 pm

Re: Refused to board with Uk Permanent Residence Card

Post by acme4242 » Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:48 am

First a question, is the passport stamped with "Indefinite Leave to Remain in the UK" ?
If so, seems the Airline Checkin staff are wrong, here is TIMATIC data

https://www.timaticweb.com/cgi-bin/tim_ ... user=GFB2C

National Morocco (MA) /Residence United Kingdom (GB)
Destination Poland (PL)

Visa required, except for A max. stay of 90 days
for family members of a national of an EEA
Member State or Switzerland, holding a Family
Member" Residence Card issued by the United Kingdom
or
holding a passport containing an "Indefinite Leave to Remain in the
UK" or "Limited Leave to Remain in the UK".

Timaticweb Version 1.3
17 April 2015
While Ryanair and Easyjet might not use TIMATIC
because they don't pay for IATA membership.
TIMATIC is still a database of every countries visa requirements.

Information and airline links to TIMATIC database >>here<<



==================================

Also Information about a handbook for Schengen Embassy staff

http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/polici ... 620_en.pdf]
EUROPEAN COMMISSION
Brussels, 19.3.2010
C(2010) 1620 final
COMMISSION DECISION of 19.3.2010 establishing the Handbook for the processing of visa applications and the modification of issued visas
Page 90
The same visa exemption must be extended also to those third country family members who
hold a valid permanent residence card issued under Article 20 of the Directive (replacing the
5-year residence card issued under article 10 of the Directive).

fezghoula
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Re: Refused to board with Uk Permanent Residence Card

Post by fezghoula » Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:25 pm

Donutz wrote:You may wish to contact Solvit.
Thanks i did write them yesterday.
acme4242 wrote:First a question, is the passport stamped with "Indefinite Leave to Remain in the UK" ?
No it's not. It says only 'Permanent Residence Card' under the Type of Document and under Remarks it says 'No restrictions on the holder's activity in the United Kingdom'
The way i understood it when we applied in 2013 is that ILR is given under UK immigration rules while PR is given under European Union or EEA rules. So because I'm EEA national and it was easier and cheaper for us to apply for PR that's what we did. Especially that it felt like the right thing as we used the EEA3 and EEA4 forms and they were somehow 'continuation' of EEA2 we did before while applying for Residence Permit for Family of EEA National. I hope it does make sense :)

fezghoula
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Posts: 4
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Re: Refused to board with Uk Permanent Residence Card

Post by fezghoula » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:50 am

So yesterday i got reply from Solvit
Thank you for your enquiry to the Your Europe Advice service.
This is an interesting and unfortunate case. It is unfortunate that the provision in Directive 2004/38/EC which allows a non-EU family member of an EU citizen to rely on his residence card to enter another Member State in lieu of a visa, confines itself to the initial residence card rather than also including permanent residence cards. Nonetheless, you are correct. It appears contradictory that you cannot rely on your permanent residence card while being allowed to rely on the initial residence card in lieu of a visa to enter another Member State. Recital 8 to the Directive is less restrictive and appears to anticipate that permanent residence cards may be used in lieu of visas when entering another Member State provided certain conditions are met. Unfortunately, there has not been any case-law from the Court of Justice of the EU to resolve this issue.
Pending some further clarification of this matter, for the future, you are recommended to apply for a visa for your husband if travelling to another Member State of the EU. If he will be travelling with or to join you, his visa should be granted to him without delay or charge or formality (Article 5, Directive 2004/38/EC).

I trust that this information is of assistance to you. Should you have any further queries in relation to your rights in the EU, please do not hesitate to revert to the Your Europe Advice service.
Yours sincerely,
Your Europe Advice
Am i understanding this correctly? They're saying that basically nothing can be done?
Shall i contact them again and ask them what to do next or it's pointless? What my possible next step would be?
Thanks.

acme4242
Senior Member
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:03 pm

Re: Refused to board with Uk Permanent Residence Card

Post by acme4242 » Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:21 pm

don't give up hope, but don't expect much.

we have this instruction from the EUROPEAN COMMISSION, that instructs the Schengen visa exemption must be extended to Art 20 cards, Yet this exemption is not extended in TIMATIC, to inform carriers, Why ?
While at the same time the UK have extended UK visa exemption to Art 20 cards from the rest of the EU.

http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/polici ... 620_en.pdf]
EUROPEAN COMMISSION
Brussels, 19.3.2010
C(2010) 1620 final
COMMISSION DECISION of 19.3.2010 establishing the Handbook for the processing of visa applications and the modification of issued visas
Page 90
The same visa exemption must be extended also to those third country family members who
hold a valid permanent residence card issued under Article 20 of the Directive (replacing the
5-year residence card issued under article 10 of the Directive).

fezghoula
Newly Registered
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:20 pm

Re: Refused to board with Uk Permanent Residence Card

Post by fezghoula » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:28 pm

So finally after more than 2 months I managed to get some proper response from easyJet.
I post it below
Dear ,

Thank you for your patience while I have been completing further investigation.

I'm sorry I think there has been confusion over the case, we have undergone further investigation and understand the refusal was due to us not being able to associate Mr (husband) with your family residency visa. It is advised that passengers travel with a documents such as a Marriage Certificate to prove relations.

We have the right to refuse travel in this instance, as we do with any passenger if we believe their documents aren’t valid for entry into the country they are travelling to (or through). Their was the possibility you could have been refused entry by Polish border control on arrival. easyJet are obligated to carry out all necessary checks to ensure the passengers we carry will be allowed entry into the country they are travelling to; failure to do so, and subsequent refusal of entry carries significant penalties imposed upon the airline.

In some instances our airport staff are required to carry out extra passport checks to ensure correct documentation is available to travel. As stated in our Terms & Conditions "we reserve the right to refuse carriage to any passenger we reasonably believe has not complied with, or whose documents do not comply with, such applicable laws, regulations, orders, demands or requirements."

I completely understand the frustration caused during this case, however, we will not be able to offer any further refund.

What do you guys think? Is there any point taking it any further?
Or shall we just drop it as we won't achieve anything and just keep wasting our time?

acme4242
Senior Member
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:03 pm

Re: Refused to board with Uk Permanent Residence Card

Post by acme4242 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:32 am

fezghoula wrote: What do you guys think? Is there any point taking it any further?
Or shall we just drop it as we won't achieve anything and just keep wasting our time?
They have forwarded it to a solicitor to write a "sorry we won't do anything answer"

If you reply, You need to find faults, e.g. did they actually ask you for a marriage certificate,

a)If no, respond saying you where not asked, and would have presented it if they had asked.

b)if yes, remind them that under actual immigration applicable laws and regulations you cannot be refuse entry without allowing time to have such documents brought.

Finally, raise the seriousness and your concern at their response, it now suggests that you presented invalid documents,
which is a serious and false accusation.

PrestonLancs

Re: Refused to board with Uk Permanent Residence Card

Post by PrestonLancs » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:33 am

acme4242 wrote:
fezghoula wrote:

b)if yes, remind them that under actual immigration applicable laws and regulations you cannot be refuse entry without allowing time to have such documents brought.
Airlines are not expected to or obliged to be experts on immigration/freemovement rights or anything of that sort. They are only obliged to check the sticker on the passport, and match it with the instruction manual they have been given to follow. Raise it up with solvit. Only they can find a proper solutions. PR card should either be designed differently, or the airlines adviced to accept the PR card. Fault lies with national governments, be it polish or UK.

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