Travelling with COA while waiting for Residence card

Hello all,

Has anyone found a good answer to your questions? I'm in a similar situation and can't seem to find a definitive answer anywhere....

I am a non-EEA national (Canadian), my husband is my sponsor/EEA national (France). We were granted an EEA Family Permit in 12/2015, and applied for our Residence Card in 06/2016 (before it expired).

I am wanting to travel for a holiday back to Canada for two weeks, with my husband (the EEA national/sponsor). My FP is expired, but I do have my COA. I was advised by my lawyer NOT to apply for another Family Permit while in Canada - her reasoning is that it's another chance for our application to be scrutinised/rejected by immigration. I am reluctant to request another FP also, as I want to spend my holiday visiting my family (not doing immigration!).

I have contacted the Home Office multiple times about this, and they gave me the number for the Glasgow airport border control (the HO said that it would be up to the immigration officer at the border on the day whether to let me in) - who wouldn't give me any clarity. And honestly, didn't seem to have any idea what I was on about!

We are planning to book flights once we both have our passports in hand (I've applied for a return of documents and realise they can be delayed and/or denied, so will not book flights until I have passports back!). Once passports are in hand, will travel to Canada for our holiday, and then attempt re-entry with my husband by my side, my expired FP, my COA, and ALL our documents - marriage certificate, proof of living together, proof of my husband being an EEA national who is exercising his treaty rights (his proof of work, our comprehensive medical insurance, bank statements).

A few questions:

1. As a Canadian citizen (and therefore, no restrictions to short term/visitor visas to the UK), is there any chance of being barred from travel by the airline in Canada (as I have an expired FP visa in my passport)? Or is this just for people from countries where you need visas to enter the UK (even for tourism)?

2. Does anyone have experience with interrogation upon re-entry to the UK in this situation (travelling with expired FP & COA)?

3. Does anyone know the worst case scenario for myself in this situation, trying to re-enter at the UK border? Refused entry and put in detention? Sent back to Canada? Questioned/interrogated separately from my partner?

4. Does anyone know the specific and relevant EU law to bring with me - to help explain to immigration officers about my rights as an EEA Family member? It's a confusing situation because, strictly speaking, you're not "supposed" to need the Residence Card to travel/live/work as a family member of an EEA national - but I don't know where this is explicitly said in the legislation?

MANY thanks for anyone who can help!!!

My timeline:
Applied RC: 13/06/2016
Money taken: 17/06/2016
Biometics letter: 12/07/2016
Biometrics enrolled: 27/07/2016
COA received: 30/07/2016
Request for return of documents: 11/08/2016

To avoid confusion & jumbled responses, I have moved your question to its own thread (this one).

epicashley wrote:Hello all,
...

A few questions:

1. As a Canadian citizen (and therefore, no restrictions to short term/visitor visas to the UK), is there any chance of being barred from travel by the airline in Canada (as I have an expired FP visa in my passport)? Or is this just for people from countries where you need visas to enter the UK (even for tourism)?

2. Does anyone have experience with interrogation upon re-entry to the UK in this situation (travelling with expired FP & COA)?

3. Does anyone know the worst case scenario for myself in this situation, trying to re-enter at the UK border? Refused entry and put in detention? Sent back to Canada? Questioned/interrogated separately from my partner?

4. Does anyone know the specific and relevant EU law to bring with me - to help explain to immigration officers about my rights as an EEA Family member? It's a confusing situation because, strictly speaking, you're not "supposed" to need the Residence Card to travel/live/work as a family member of an EEA national - but I don't know where this is explicitly said in the legislation?

MANY thanks for anyone who can help!!!

...

1) Who know what a random check-in clerk may say or do.
But you are a visa-free national.

A COA is not a travel document.
Other members have reported applying for and getting a fresh FP in this very situation.

2) Stay frosty.

3) A few probing questions. Some delay.
Some joke about the Olympics.

Worst worst case: not even a 'visa' guarantees entry into UK. In border control you are in the hands of the IO.

See #2

4) See Directive 2004/38/EC.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:en:PDF

This is transposed into UK's EEA Regulations, 2006.
Regulation 11(4) may float your boat

11(4) Before an immigration officer refuses admission to the United Kingdom to a person under this regulation because the person does not produce on arrival a document mentioned in paragraph (1) or (2), the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he is—

(a) ...

(b)a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that national or join him in the United Kingdom;

Ref http://www.eearegulations.co.uk/Latest/ByPage/part2_11

To get into the mind of the IO who will 'interrogate' you (or more likely pass the time of day whilst offering you 'reasonable opportunity'), get up to speed with the UK Border Force internal manual:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ndents.pdf
- ref section 5.5

noajthan wrote:

epicashley wrote:Hello all,
...

A few questions:

1. As a Canadian citizen (and therefore, no restrictions to short term/visitor visas to the UK), is there any chance of being barred from travel by the airline in Canada (as I have an expired FP visa in my passport)? Or is this just for people from countries where you need visas to enter the UK (even for tourism)?

2. Does anyone have experience with interrogation upon re-entry to the UK in this situation (travelling with expired FP & COA)?

3. Does anyone know the worst case scenario for myself in this situation, trying to re-enter at the UK border? Refused entry and put in detention? Sent back to Canada? Questioned/interrogated separately from my partner?

4. Does anyone know the specific and relevant EU law to bring with me - to help explain to immigration officers about my rights as an EEA Family member? It's a confusing situation because, strictly speaking, you're not "supposed" to need the Residence Card to travel/live/work as a family member of an EEA national - but I don't know where this is explicitly said in the legislation?

MANY thanks for anyone who can help!!!

...

1) Who know what a random check-in clerk may say or do.
But you are a visa-free national.

A COA is not a travel document.
Other members have reported applying for and getting a fresh FP in this very situation.

2) Stay frosty.

3) A few probing questions. Some delay.
Some joke about the Olympics.

Worst worst case: not even a 'visa' guarantees entry into UK. In border control you are in the hands of the IO.

See #2

4) See Directive 2004/38/EC.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:en:PDF

This is transposed into UK's EEA Regulations, 2006.
Regulation 11(4) may float your boat

11(4) Before an immigration officer refuses admission to the United Kingdom to a person under this regulation because the person does not produce on arrival a document mentioned in paragraph (1) or (2), the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he is—

(a) ...

(b)a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that national or join him in the United Kingdom;

Ref http://www.eearegulations.co.uk/Latest/ByPage/part2_11

To get into the mind of the IO who will 'interrogate' you (or more likely pass the time of day whilst offering you 'reasonable opportunity'), get up to speed with the UK Border Force internal manual:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ndents.pdf
- ref section 5.5

Thanks for your quick response! A few things...

- I have seen some others applying for new FP as a way around this, which is appealing on one hand because then I would be able to travel again for 6 months! But I'm wary for a couple reasons:
1) I used a lawyer for the first FP and the application/evidence gathering took a long time - as I was really desperate not to get rejected. Unsure if doing it again would be possible in the short time I would be visiting home (+ the HO currently has all my evidence I would be submitting to a FP application!)
2) Wouldn't applying for another FP make my currently in-process RC application null and void? Wouldn't I need to start the whole thing again with my new FP?
3) If I made another FP application from Canada and was rejected and had to appeal, I would most likely lose my job in the UK, as I'm just on a wee holiday and can't take an extended leave off if that were to occur... so I can't really risk it!

- Don't understand the 'stay frosty'! Ie. frosty attitude when dealing with Immigration Officers?

- The quotes from the "EEA Regulations, 2006" are really good, thank you - I've read through these before but have been confused about it, makes much more sense to me now, thank you!

- Also thank you for the border force manual, gives me some solid bedtime reading! :

This was fabulous, thank you again1

vinny wrote:Carry evidence that:
1) you are the spouse of an EEA national.
2) if your EEA national spouse has been in the UK for longer than 3 months, then documents to show that your spouse is a qualified person or has the right of PR.
3) COA.

Request entry under 11(4).

Thanks for this, also a super speedy response. The links are really great too, thank you so much. It's what I hoped for, really - that I can bring my husband, my documents, my COA, and the relevant legislation with me to argue my case if need be.

THANK YOU!

2) My understanding is the 2 applications do not interfere or cancel each other out.
It didn't for members who used this approach.

3) You still have your COA and RC application in progress. Should come good soon.

Stay frosty is just a more gung ho variation of stay cool.
Or in English one might say: keep calm and carry on.

noajthan wrote:2) My understanding is the 2 applications do not interfere or cancel each other out.
It didn't for members who used this approach.

3) You still have your COA and RC application in progress. Should come good soon.

Stay frosty is just a more gung ho variation of stay cool.
Or in English one might say: keep calm and carry on.

Aha, catch your drift now about the 'stay frosty' - will do!

don't think COA will help you to travel, it's more for your employer.
Don't think a FP will hurt your application either, it was said on the official website that you need to apply for a FP to travel. I am waiting for my 3rd FP to come through as my 2nd FP would expire soon and my RC is still nowhere in sight.

nceeterminator wrote:don't think COA will help you to travel, it's more for your employer.
Don't think a FP will hurt your application either, it was said on the official website that you need to apply for a FP to travel. I am waiting for my 3rd FP to come through as my 2nd FP would expire soon and my RC is still nowhere in sight.

Thanks for getting back to me! Yes I think you're right, COA isn't a travel doc at all, it's just proof you're applying for a Residence Card and your right to work.

For your FP, don't you need to be outside the UK to apply? I will only be visiting Canada for two weeks, so it's a little tight to apply for a FP, get a visa appointment, send in my documents, get a decision, and get my passport back in time I think! I'm just curious how you've applied for three FPs?

Thanks!

FP should be requested from abroad

epicashley wrote:Hello all,

Has anyone found a good answer to your questions? I'm in a similar situation and can't seem to find a definitive answer anywhere....

I am a non-EEA national (Canadian), my husband is my sponsor/EEA national (France). We were granted an EEA Family Permit in 12/2015, and applied for our Residence Card in 06/2016 (before it expired).

I am wanting to travel for a holiday back to Canada for two weeks, with my husband (the EEA national/sponsor). My FP is expired, but I do have my COA. I was advised by my lawyer NOT to apply for another Family Permit while in Canada - her reasoning is that it's another chance for our application to be scrutinised/rejected by immigration. I am reluctant to request another FP also, as I want to spend my holiday visiting my family (not doing immigration!).

I have contacted the Home Office multiple times about this, and they gave me the number for the Glasgow airport border control (the HO said that it would be up to the immigration officer at the border on the day whether to let me in) - who wouldn't give me any clarity. And honestly, didn't seem to have any idea what I was on about!

We are planning to book flights once we both have our passports in hand (I've applied for a return of documents and realise they can be delayed and/or denied, so will not book flights until I have passports back!). Once passports are in hand, will travel to Canada for our holiday, and then attempt re-entry with my husband by my side, my expired FP, my COA, and ALL our documents - marriage certificate, proof of living together, proof of my husband being an EEA national who is exercising his treaty rights (his proof of work, our comprehensive medical insurance, bank statements).

A few questions:

1. As a Canadian citizen (and therefore, no restrictions to short term/visitor visas to the UK), is there any chance of being barred from travel by the airline in Canada (as I have an expired FP visa in my passport)? Or is this just for people from countries where you need visas to enter the UK (even for tourism)?

2. Does anyone have experience with interrogation upon re-entry to the UK in this situation (travelling with expired FP & COA)?

3. Does anyone know the worst case scenario for myself in this situation, trying to re-enter at the UK border? Refused entry and put in detention? Sent back to Canada? Questioned/interrogated separately from my partner?

4. Does anyone know the specific and relevant EU law to bring with me - to help explain to immigration officers about my rights as an EEA Family member? It's a confusing situation because, strictly speaking, you're not "supposed" to need the Residence Card to travel/live/work as a family member of an EEA national - but I don't know where this is explicitly said in the legislation?

MANY thanks for anyone who can help!!!

My timeline:
Applied RC: 13/06/2016
Money taken: 17/06/2016
Biometics letter: 12/07/2016
Biometrics enrolled: 27/07/2016
COA received: 30/07/2016
Request for return of documents: 11/08/2016

Hi, just wondering what ended up happening & if you were OK to re-enter after travelling back home for Christmas? I have the same situation now as an American looking to travel home next month with an expired EEA permit. Did you have any problems re-entering?

mae123 wrote:Hi, just wondering what ended up happening & if you were OK to re-enter after travelling back home for Christmas? I have the same situation now as an American looking to travel home next month with an expired EEA permit. Did you have any problems re-entering?

Member in question is busy and has not returned to the forum for almost 3 months.

[/quote]

Hi, just wondering what ended up happening & if you were OK to re-enter after travelling back home for Christmas? I have the same situation now as an American looking to travel home next month with an expired EEA permit. Did you have any problems re-entering?[/quote]

Hello to everyone,

I did travel to Canada at the end of September, with my husband (EEA National, he is from France), to visit my family for two weeks.

I was very nervous about returning back to the UK, as I was travelling without my Residence Card (which I am still waiting for), and my Family Permit had expired in my passport.

I brought with me:
- My Certificate of Application
- all marriage documentation
- all evidence of my husband exercising his right of residence in the UK (proof of his employment, his self-sufficiency, and him being self-employed - as he is all three). This included bank statements, proof of living together, a stack of proof of his business, our comprehensive medical insurance, etc
- photos of us across the course of our relationship

Essentially I brought with us a copy of the documents we used for both our Family Permit application and our Residence Card application, just to be safe.

At the border (Glasgow airport) we were asked routine questions, and then the guard asked if I was coming in as a visitor since my Family Permit had expired. I explained I was coming in as the wife of an EEA citizen, and that we were awaiting the Residence Card. He wanted to let me in as a visitor, but I said that I would be returning to my job the next day (my COA states I am allowed to work). I reiterated that I could show him all the relevant paperwork as I had brought it with me, but he said it was fine, that I could come in - that he didn't want to bother with looking through all the paperwork (!).

And that was that - less then five minutes. I love Scotland. I was very polite and very clear about my rights and what I had brought with me as my evidence, and he seemed fine with it. To be honest, he seemed like he couldn't be arsed with looking through it all.

I believe it helped that my husband was travelling with me - I think it would have been different if he hadn't!

We are travelling again together to see his family in France in mid-December, when my RC is due to arrive. If it doesn't arrive before we travel, I will have to cross the border without the card again. Will let you know how that goes, when/if it happens.

Any more questions, please just ask .

It feels to my that you did not even need to stress about all these details as you are a non-visa national. You do not even need a visa to enter the UK, dont you?

Am I missing a detail?

ijjlian wrote:It feels to my that you did not even need to stress about all these details as you are a non-visa national. You do not even need a visa to enter the UK, dont you?

Am I missing a detail?

If you attempt to enter the UK on arrival at the border by relying on your status as a non-visa national, you are taken to be applying for leave to enter as a visitor. Doing so involves representing to a Border Force officer that you are a "genuine visitor" to the UK.

You are only a "genuine visitor" if, amongst other things:

• you do not intend to make the UK your main home or place of work;
• you intend to leave the UK at the end of your visit (generally less than six months); and
• you will not engage in prohibited activities (e.g. taking employment) while you are here.

Those circumstances are usually inconsistent with a pending application for a residence card. If you know you are not a genuine visitor and you represent to a Border Force officer that you are a genuine visitor, you are making a false representation. Making false representations to Border Force officers is the migration law equivalent of opening Pandora's box.

So it is best not to try that approach.

exegete wrote:

ijjlian wrote:It feels to my that you did not even need to stress about all these details as you are a non-visa national. You do not even need a visa to enter the UK, dont you?

Am I missing a detail?

If you attempt to enter the UK on arrival at the border by relying on your status as a non-visa national, you are taken to be applying for leave to enter as a visitor. Doing so involves representing to a Border Force officer that you are a "genuine visitor" to the UK.

You are only a "genuine visitor" if, amongst other things:

• you do not intend to make the UK your main home or place of work;
• you intend to leave the UK at the end of your visit (generally less than six months); and
• you will not engage in prohibited activities (e.g. taking employment) while you are here.

Those circumstances are usually inconsistent with a pending application for a residence card. If you know you are not a genuine visitor and you represent to a Border Force officer that you are a genuine visitor, you are making a false representation. Making false representations to Border Force officers is the migration law equivalent of opening Pandora's box.

So it is best not to try that approach.

Totally agree with this person ^^^ - I am NOT a visitor to the UK. I live here with my husband permanently, we have a house we rent, I have a permanent job that I do here, and we intend to stay here - hence why we've applied for a Residence Card for me. If I was 'just visiting', I would not be able to work, and if I did work, would be essentially breaking the law. So even though the border officer wanted to just let me in as a visitor, I was very clear to him that I was not, as I would return to work the next day.

Hope that helps!

Wow I understand. I have a lot of experience with immigration papework but as I am not a non-visa national myself I was not aware that this could create a huge problem. I will keep this in mind for friends.

Thank you for taking my quesiton serious and giving an explanation.