EEA Permanent Residence Application

Hi everyone!

I received a refusal letter from the Home Office. I have been living in the UK for over ten years now, and sometimes I was student, and self-sufficient. The problem of course like in many other cases I did not have the sickness insurance as I did not know about it.

Now my question would be the long term residence which is 10 years is applicable in this case or I was here unlawfully during the university and while I was self-sufficient?

Thanks!

blahblah wrote:Hi everyone!

I received a refusal letter from the Home Office. I have been living in the UK for over ten years now, and sometimes I was student, and self-sufficient. The problem of course like in many other cases I did not have the sickness insurance as I did not know about it.

Now my question would be the long term residence which is 10 years is applicable in this case or I was here unlawfully during the university and while I was self-sufficient?

Thanks!

Unfortunately your time not exercising treaty rights (by not having CSI as a student or whilst selfsufficient) would work against such an application.

Did you have any alternative to CSI during those carefee student years?

For example:

• Foreign EHIC;
  RC issued to you as a student during/before 2011;
  Potential EEA qualified person to act as sponsor;
  Cover from parent's foreign health insurance that extends to you:
  Reciprocal health cover from your country to UK;

Thank you very much!

This is ridiculous! No I do not have any of these. And I would have certainly got the sickness insurance but I did not know I needed one. But the long term residence clearly states that lawful residence, which I am a lawful residence as I am an eea national right? how can I not be here legally if I am here legally? This does not make any sense. Here we have the free-movement and the right to settle, which I did and now I have not been here legally at all during my time as a student? WHAT? How is that even possible?

So there is now the Brexit, are we facing deportation of any kind?

Just to be sure and I am a student again so I need to have csi to be here legally? but I am legally here under the act of free movement, right? because the letter stated that I do not need to leave the country. so I am here legally I guess, but I am not here legally? now this is going to be very interesting in couple of million of cases.

After the first 3 months you only have a right to reside if you are a qualified person exercising your treaty rights. As a student or self-sufficient without CSI you were not exercising your treaty rights and therefore technically had no right to reside.
As the UK isn't enforcing this unless you apply for a RC or EEA PR, it is a bit of a grey area and I suppose you are not really considered unlawful during the periods without CSI but at the same time did not have a right to reside either, so I am not sure where this leaves you.

All legislation is here, interesting read:
EU Directive:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:en:PDF
and transposed into UK law: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006 ... tents/made

Do you have any continuous 5-year period of work?

If you are a student now, just buy CSI and then you will be a qualified person. I highly doubt they'll deport anyone who is exercising their treaty rights so don't worry too much. Tbh, I highly doubt they'll deport any EU citizens already here (unless perhaps those who solely rely on benefits which can't be many), too much hassle. But then again, that's just my opinion and no one knows what's actually going to happen so better safe than sorry.

blahblah wrote:Thank you very much!

This is ridiculous! No I do not have any of this. And I would have certainly got the sickness insurance but I did not know I needed one. But the long term residence clearly states that lawful residence, which I am a lawful residence as I am an eea national right? how can I not be here legally if I am here legally? This does not make any sense. Here we have the free-movement and the right to settle, which I did and now I have not been here legally at all during my time as a student? WHAT? How is that even possible?

So there is now the Brexit, are we facing deportation of any kind?

Just to be sure and I am a student again so I need to have csi to be here legally? but I am legally here under the act of free movement, right? because the letter stated that I do not need to leave the country. so I am here legally I guess, but I am not here legally? now this is going to be very interesting in couple of million of cases.

Other members have failed on 10-year route due to not exercising treaty rights or not having a Union citizen sponsor who was a qp.
And if you were a qp you would have acquired PR in 5 years so no need to go down 10 year route unless you previously had some UK domestic visas.

The requirements for acquiring PR status are well known, as defined in Directive 2004/38/EC and corresponding transposition into UK law (EEA Regulations).
You have to be a qualified person. Mere presence in the country, doing something, is not enough.

You can dig into these vital matters in guidance here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

You don't need to panic. You don't face deportation and noone is going to come smashing down your doors.
HO has admin removal at its disposal but you just need to exercise treaty rights and that cannot apply.
You can regularise your position in UK by simply exercising treaty rights from now onwards.

What are you doing now?

In fact to be sure you haven't accidentally acquired PR already, what is your outline timeline of all activities in UK?

With all this wild talk of Brexit it would be prudent to have some EU documentation whilst you work towards acquiring PR status.
Suggest you at least apply for a RC - form EEA (QP).

LilyLalilu wrote:After the first 3 months you only have a right to reside if you are a qualified person exercising your treaty rights. As a student or self-sufficient without CSI you were not exercising your treaty rights and therefore technically had no right to reside.
As the UK isn't enforcing this unless you apply for a RC or EEA PR, it is a bit of a grey area and I suppose you are not really considered unlawful during the periods without CSI but at the same time did not have a right to reside either, so I am not sure where this leaves you.
Do you have any continuous 5-year period of work?

Thank you!

No I do not have the 5 years. I was self-sufficient for the time being. for not too long of course. another question. how many days can we leave the uk within 5 years? and for some time jobseeker, but this was before 2014 so that amendment cannot be applied to those years. but my problem is that now I am here illegally and I should be deported anytime just because I do not have the csi? Because if I have the right to live here then I am lawfully living here. how on earth can I be here legally and illegally at the same time. so what am I now a tourist? but that is problem I am not a tourist but I have been living here paying taxes, university, paying bills, rent, and so on. it's just bumped me today, that 10 years of my life I spent in the uk illegally? because this was definitely the last thing I wanted to do. I know that most of the people from any eu countries do not have any clue about the csi, so are we facing deportation let's say in 2 years time? after 10 years of living here. this just cannot be right. to be somewhere legally and in the same time not being there legally.

I had a conversation with an academic at a conference on Brexit about this situation (student or self-sufficient EEA citizen not having CSI). She advised me that such a person would be "lawfully present but not legally resident". Such persons would have the legal right to be in the UK ,under Article 21 of the TFEU, hence lawfully present. But such presence does not count as legal residence, which is defined more narrowly by Article 7 of Directive 2004/38/EC. It is worth noting that the requirement for CSI has been there in EU law (not just UK law)since at least 2004 and mat have been there before that as well.

So, you will not be removed (incidentally, it was clarified that while non-EEA criminals are deported, EEA Citizens can only be removed) from the UK, but your PR clock will only start when you acquire CSI.

blahblah wrote:Thank you!

No I do not have the 5 years. I was self-sufficient for the time being. for not too long of course. another question. how many days can we leave the uk within 5 years? and for some time jobseeker, but this was before 2014 so that amendment cannot be applied to those years. but my problem is that now I am here illegally and I should be deported anytime just because I do not have the csi? Because if I have the right to live here then I am lawfully living here. how on earth can I be here legally and illegally at the same time. so what am I now a tourist? but that is problem I am not a tourist but I have been living here paying taxes, university, paying bills, rent, and so on. it's just bumped me today, that 10 years of my life I spent in the uk illegally? because this was definitely the last thing I wanted to do. I know that most of the people from any eu countries do not have any clue about the csi, so are we facing deportation let's say in 2 years time? after 10 years of living here. this just cannot be right. to be somewhere legally and in the same time not being there legally.

You will not be deported, as I have explained above.
Deportation is not an option, admin removal could be - but shouldn't happen to you.

Don't be too hard on yourself, you're not the first, won't be the last in this position.
At least you have the option to address it, imagine if you were non-EEA (unmarried partner facing relationship breakdown for example).

Lily and I concur with similar advice/suggestions, so calm down; make sure you are exercising treaty rights from now on.

Read the linked docs above.
And suggest apply EEA(QP) when you have appropriate supporting evidence of your status.

And on absences: up to 6 months away from our 'hot-house' political/economic climate in a 12-month period. Yes free movement really is that free and easy.

As above, calm down, no one is going to deport you. Unfortunately, a lot of people did not know about the CSI requirement and I understand that it must be really frustrating. But as you can't do anything about it retrospectively, your best bet is to 'regularise' your stay now by being a student with CSI (i.e. a qualified person exercising their treaty rights) and apply for EEA QP if you fancy.

Another good defence against the deportation you fear is to get yourself up to speed with all the relevant EU and UK legislation regarding free movement now - knowledge is power.

noajthan wrote:

blahblah wrote:Thank you very much!

This is ridiculous! No I do not have any of this. And I would have certainly got the sickness insurance but I did not know I needed one. But the long term residence clearly states that lawful residence, which I am a lawful residence as I am an eea national right? how can I not be here legally if I am here legally? This does not make any sense. Here we have the free-movement and the right to settle, which I did and now I have not been here legally at all during my time as a student? WHAT? How is that even possible?

So there is now the Brexit, are we facing deportation of any kind?

Just to be sure and I am a student again so I need to have csi to be here legally? but I am legally here under the act of free movement, right? because the letter stated that I do not need to leave the country. so I am here legally I guess, but I am not here legally? now this is going to be very interesting in couple of million of cases.

Other members have failed on 10-year route due to not exercising treaty rights or not having a Union citizen sponsor who was a qp.
And if you were a qp you would have acquired PR in 5 years so no need to go down 10 year route unless you previously had some UK domestic visas.

The requirements for acquiring PR status are well known, as defined in Directive 2004/38/EC and corresponding transposition into UK law (EEA Regulations).
You have to be a qualified person. Mere presence in the country, doing something, is not enough.

You can dig into these vital matters in guidance here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

You don't need to panic. You don't face deportation and noone is going to come smashing down your doors.
HO has admin removal at its disposal but you just need to exercise treaty rights and that cannot apply.
You can regularise your position in UK by simply exercising treaty rights from now onwards.

What are you doing now?

In fact to be sure you haven't accidentally acquired PR already, what is your outline timeline of all activities in UK?

With all this wild talk of Brexit it would be prudent to have some EU documentation whilst you work towards acquiring PR status.
Suggest you at least apply for a RC - form EEA (QP).

I am not panicking I am simple sad. we have a home where we can go back anytime we want. It was my last intention to be here illegally. we paid our bills, rents, no criminal conviction, etc. now there we are not even recognised as residence. we were kinda led to believe that we are here rightfully, legally, etc. under the free movement act. this is not the way how to act against simple people. you see I am sad and furthermost I do not want my kid growing up in a country which treats people like objects. this is not forwarding. thank you for the tip to have the insurance now I will sort that out. you see I am sad because this country had a long history to be part in slave trades. I guess those times just never ended. now you see I will probably leave the country before brexit will happen. because we are not slaves to put us on a boat and kick us out from a place where we thought we were settled legally. I do not whish to teach this to my kids. I was under the impression that during the ten years of residence we became residence. we learned the language as much as we can, no criminal offence, etc.

my class mate told me that this is 1942 again. I believe it is slave trading again.

I do believe that most of the eu citizens are not aware this csi requirements.

Thanks for the answers everybody!

LilyLalilu wrote:As above, calm down, no one is going to deport you. Unfortunately, a lot of people did not know about the CSI requirement and I understand that it must be really frustrating. But as you can't do anything about it retrospectively, your best bet is to 'regularise' your stay now by being a student with CSI (i.e. a qualified person exercising their treaty rights) and apply for EEA QP if you fancy.

Another good defence against the deportation you fear is to get yourself up to speed with all the relevant EU and UK legislation regarding free movement now - knowledge is power.

yes i know that knowledge is power that is why i am postgraduate student. that is fine as i stated above i am not a slave i do not need to handled one. i can go home back where we came from it is just really sad, that after ten years of living here contributing as much as we could to the society we are just objects. my problem was that it is certainly required some time to pack my family and move back. especially in the middle of my studies which i paid for it!

thanks again!

blahblah wrote:I am not panicking I am simple sad. we have a home where we can go back anytime we want. It was my last intention to be here illegally. we paid our bills, rents, no criminal conviction, etc. now there we are not even recognised as residence. we were kinda led to believe that we are here rightfully, legally, etc. under the free movement act. this is not the way how to act against simple people. you see I am sad and furthermost I do not want my kid growing up in a country which treats people like objects. this is not forwarding. thank you for the tip to have the insurance now I will sort that out. you see I am sad because this country had a long history to be part in slave trades. I guess those times just never ended. now you see I will probably leave the country before brexit will happen. because we are not slaves to put us on a boat and kick us out from a place where we thought we were settled legally. I do not whish to teach this to my kids. I was under the impression that during the ten years of residence we became residence. we learned the language as much as we can, no criminal offence, etc.

my class mate told me that this is 1942 again. I believe it is slave trading again.

I do believe that most of the eu citizens are not aware this csi requirements.

Thanks for the answers everybody!

This is not a vendetta nor some sort of imperialism in action - it is EU law in practice.
The need for CSI has been there since birth of Directive 2004/38/EC. UK only starting enforcing it in 2011 - that's how even-handed UK has been

Suggest drop the slave mentality - that can damage you.
As in most aspects of life, it is applicant's responsibility to fulfill their responsibilities whilst enjoying their rights.

Free movement is not some sort of lifetime visa.
Suggest take action to understand and address everything in a calm and measured way.

blahblah wrote:my class mate told me that this is 1942 again.

What is the significance of 1942 to this discussion?

secret.simon wrote:

blahblah wrote:my class mate told me that this is 1942 again.

What is the significance of 1942 to this discussion?

Nothing obvious to be found here In a year dominated by WW2, events elsewhere in Europe maybe?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1942_in_t ... ed_Kingdom

noajthan wrote:

blahblah wrote:I am not panicking I am simple sad. we have a home where we can go back anytime we want. It was my last intention to be here illegally. we paid our bills, rents, no criminal conviction, etc. now there we are not even recognised as residence. we were kinda led to believe that we are here rightfully, legally, etc. under the free movement act. this is not the way how to act against simple people. you see I am sad and furthermost I do not want my kid growing up in a country which treats people like objects. this is not forwarding. thank you for the tip to have the insurance now I will sort that out. you see I am sad because this country had a long history to be part in slave trades. I guess those times just never ended. now you see I will probably leave the country before brexit will happen. because we are not slaves to put us on a boat and kick us out from a place where we thought we were settled legally. I do not whish to teach this to my kids. I was under the impression that during the ten years of residence we became residence. we learned the language as much as we can, no criminal offence, etc.

my class mate told me that this is 1942 again. I believe it is slave trading again.

I do believe that most of the eu citizens are not aware this csi requirements.

Thanks for the answers everybody!

This is not a vendetta nor some sort of imperialism in action - it is EU law in practice.
The need for CSI has been there since birth of Directive 2004/38/EC. UK only starting enforcing it in 2011 - that's how even-handed UK has been

Suggest drop the slave mentality - that can damage you.
As in most aspects of life, it is applicant's responsibility to fulfill their responsibilities whilst enjoying their rights.

Free movement is not some sort of lifetime visa.
Suggest take action to understand and address everything in a calm and measured way.

I will not drop the slave act. you see we invited here lets say brought to get a job. now as soon as you do not have the job you can stay but you are not a residence. therefore you are not counted as person fully. oh by the way this insurance only requirement in the uk. under the immigration act 2006 section 4 and 6 I guess. so yes it was a uk based custom. saying it we are good for work but not good for studying and being self-sufficient. my problem is that we were mislead a little bit. as we could get the nhs and we are mostly grateful to that make no mistakes about that we believed that we do not need that. plus i started the uni after 6 years being here and i moved out from my home country so i went to the uni without even having the chance to get eu card from other countries then the uk. which i have got one. now why on earth could i thought that i am not a residence here? my point is that is not too fair to say it is your new home welcome, and after 10 years just saying, oh yeah you were not a residence and you do not belong here. sure sounds like slavery a bit. but at least second or third class and furthermost non-resident.

by the way not everyone works at the immigration office to know everything but telling people after ten years that they are not even here. well sure sounds bad to me. but there is no need to tell me twice.

free movement is what it is. i have the right to stay and settle but i do not have the right to call myself residence. how can someone live somewhere and not being a residence? the problem here is that we did not want to not pay for the insurance. we just did not know. and therefore we are like not even exist here. now that is the problem. if we were informed we would have been paid for it.

you just don't worry about me getting damaged. i just kinda wasted ten years of my life in a country that does not even recognise me as resident. jeez. now that is just said. i made a home here, family, etc. it just will take some time to move back. from now if they did not want us remove after brexit still be 6 years to become a citizen? that is 16-17 years. everywhere you get recognized within less time. jeez.

you see, i moved here in 2006. therefore i did not know this. only before i applied for the card. so asking for something just to deny a claim? come on. that is just unfair. that is the point. they changed it in the meantime, but somehow we were not informed that were are not a legal residence anymore. so as soon we became self-sufficient or students we should have been informed to buy an insurance.

lets just be calm here. what do you think how many people did not know about this? a million, two? perhaps 3? so we have no guaranties to stay even after ten years, but we are very good for bargain chips, right? well that's just human trafficking in a sense.

blahblah wrote:oh by the way this insurance only requirement in the uk

That is not a UK requirement. That is an EU requirement and is required for students and self-sufficient people in all EU countries, not just the UK.

Ignorantia iuris non excusat - Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

secret.simon wrote:

blahblah wrote:my class mate told me that this is 1942 again.

What is the significance of 1942 to this discussion?

well being a resident but not being a resident at all. and being removed because we did not have some insurance. but we were led to believe that we are lawfully living here. we were led to believe that were are residence in every sense and we are part of the society. but guess what? we are not. you see if we broke the law anyway we should be informed in the meantime that we became illegal. so we could buy an insurance. or whatever needed. not too mention they started ask for after 2011. I had been living here for 5 years till 2011. jeez. illegally? then how on earth I was not informed so I guess I need to pack and leave the country or carry on as some bargain chip, second, third class citizen.

I think that is what he meant. but you should ask him. he is a local guy. he judged his own country not me. I still stick with the slave, human trafficking line.

thanks anyway!

Probably best to focus your attention on doing something about your situation and take the advice people have given you instead of ranting about how annoying and unfair the situation is. All of us EU citizens are essentially in the same situation and we all have to abide by the same regulations. Complaining and venting your frustration on the internet surely doesn't help anyone.

secret.simon wrote:

blahblah wrote:oh by the way this insurance only requirement in the uk

That is not a UK requirement. That is an EU requirement and is required for students and self-sufficient people in all EU countries, not just the UK.

Ignorantia iuris non excusat - Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

oh ok. sorry my mistake. this is right. but I only became a student in 212 and moved here in 2006. I thought I am permanent residence. as they said I need to live in the uk for 5 years. now I lived here for 10 years. I thought I am permanent residence. and they told us that we do not need to apply as we are eu citizens. which was fine till the brexit vote. now it appears that I am not even a legal residence. I wasted 10 years in a sense. this is just sad. and a lot of people did not know this. I was legally here but noooooo I wasn't. I should have been asked to leave or purchase the insurance. this is just not right. if the government recognised me as a resident how am I not a resident.

Ignorance? I bet you know all the laws. sure.

LilyLalilu wrote:Probably best to focus your attention on doing something about your situation and take the advice people have given you instead of ranting about how annoying and unfair the situation is. All of us EU citizens are essentially in the same situation and we all have to abide by the same regulations. Complaining and venting your frustration on the internet surely doesn't help anyone.

well thank you, I am not frustrated at all. it just takes some time to stop living here and move back where I am a legal residence, in fact a citizen. I was just simply pointing out that this whole thing is not right and you can be sure more people will face this issue in a very close future. I was just trying to find a way where I do not feel like a not even a citizen where I was led that I am one. it is probably nothing to you to think about to close down ten years of your life and start it over again. it is just not simple as that.

and I still cannot believe that I was living here illegally and no one told me this. I did not want to be illegal. and I bet none of the eu citizens want to be illegal. by the way having the insurance. why would I? for two years before the brexit? that will not help me at all. you need five years to stay. what am I doing with 2?

I still can be removed with a blink of an eye. now that is the problem here. I need to move back home, which is not a problem but time consuming and I had plans for the next 4 years here.

this is just sad. over an insurance... ten years and I am not even part of the country. not even a little bit. a dog gets better treatment then this. only if knew I needed this insurance in the first place.

thanks for your help anyway!

and I am sorry that I made your day tougher with my silly little problem.

What was your situation in the UK in the 6 years between your arrival in 2006 and the beginning of your student years in 2012?

For the 3rd time, noone is deporting you.

Free movement is not about a dream job for life in UK - its essentially an opportunity for economic units (Union citizens) to move around a level playing field (EU/EEA, oh and Switzerland etc) and perform some economic activity as qualified persons - that's it.
Not for ever and ever. And not necessarily leading to citizenship in any particular place.
So stay or go is your choice, as its always been.

You have not lost or wasted anything, you have gained an education and also had benefit of health cover you have not had to pay for. And will not be asked to pay back.

There may be consequences if you had ambitions of citizenship but it sounds like you haven't - so again what have you lost.

But do your co-students a favour and spread the word about CSI. That's the health insurance mandated by EU so as to avoid being a burden whilst a guest in host country.

If you were not a resident, can you claim your taxes back and pay them into your home country?

To me even if it is a rule to have sickness insurance, could there be a way to argue back with the evidence that you have never been a burden to their social system? Or am I just dreaming of a perfect world?

Other point: Arent you covered by your parents' insurance until an age when you are not financially independent? Which EU country are you from?
I believe all EU student are covered with their home coutnry coverage all through the EU.
How can you afford not to have any insurance btw?

ijjlian wrote:If you were not a resident, can you claim your taxes back and pay them into your home country?

To me even if it is a rule to have sickness insurance, could there be a way to argue back with the evidence that you have never been a burden to their social system? Or am I just dreaming of a perfect world?

Other point: Arent you covered by your parents' insurance until an age when you are not financially independent? Which EU country are you from?
I believe all EU student are covered with their home coutnry coverage all through the EU.
How can you afford not to have any insurance btw?

No, and it doesn't matter if you eat an apple a day to keep the doctor away or work out in the gym etc.
Insurance doesn't work like that.

Plenty of info on this in the public domain; here's an example from 2011 that explains everything:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... issued.pdf

I suggest you stop panicking, read the application requirements carefully, re-apply for permanent residence or appeal the refusal decision if you need to. If you don't understand the whole application process and everything looks too complicated, pay a solicitor or a company to help you make a successful application. As you say, it seems almost impossible to have lived here for 10 years and not be able to get permanent residence. I am sure there must be something you have missed in your application or there must be a loophole in the law that you can use. You need someone who knows the legislation very well.