Driving offence- Fined by court - Effect on Naturalisation

Hi All,

I have been living in the UK for nearly six years and have ILR (that was granted last year). I will be applying for Naturalisation soon,

I want to ask you guys about one incident that happened two years ago, I was driving on my Indian license but also had my provisional UK driving license with me. A police officer stopped me and asked me to produce all documents in police station, I produced everything(everything was fine, MOT, Insurance (on International License) and road tax etc.). Later I got a letter from court about the same thing. I went there and they fined me for the same offence and added three points on my provisional license. Aftr that I did not hear anything from them. The offence code was LC20 (not driving according to license)

I applied for my ILR last year and did declare this offence in the form but was not asked anything and granted ILR.

I am about to file my Naturalisation application soon, I was wondering can this effect my Naturalisation application by any chance?

Can you guys please help me here?

Thanks..

Not sure you will like this answer, but because you have an unspent conviction you would be likely to be declined Naturalisation, at the moment.

When will your conviction become spent? As you were fined, that is 5 years after the date of conviction. So best to wait a further 3 years before making your application.

You mention Indian driving licence. How long had you been in the UK when you were stopped by the Police?

Ahh I hate this

Thanks for your quick reply John, I really appreciate.

When I was stopped I had been in the UK for three years. I also had International driving license at that moment.

Record will be spent in 2011 (thats three years from now).

I read in the guidance notes that HomeOffice may choose to ignore "Minor traffic" offences for Naturalisation, is my offence is likely to be considered as Minor? (Thinking that I have been granted ILR)

Driving with no licence is punishable crime ( Indian licence , mot , insurance all illegal once applicant completes one year in uk )

if u have done an accidnet on intl licence after one year yr insurance cover is not valid

that is equal to no insurance and driving

now a days traffic offence are taken very seriously by HO

Sushil-ACCA wrote:Driving with no licence is punishable crime ( Indian licence , mot , insurance all illegal once applicant completes one year in uk )

if u have done an accidnet on intl licence after one year yr insurance cover is not valid

that is equal to no insurance and driving

now a days traffic offence are taken very seriously by HO

Just to clarify, I also had valid international driving licence at that time and did not know that International driving licence is also not valid if you complete your one year in the UK.

So actually I had three licences at that time, UK provisional, Indian and International driving licence.. and I was fined because I was not driving with a person holding a full UK licence and no "L" plate was displayed. (according to offence code LC20)

Just to clarify, I also had valid international driving licence at that time and did not know that International driving licence is also not valid if you complete your one year in the UK.

Obviously too late for you but hopefully others sharing that misconception who read this topic will be warned that it is absolutely clear ..... an overseas or international licence has no validity in the UK except during the first 12 months in the UK.

Also, to emphasise that, it is very clear from Case Law that the 12-month clock does not get reset every time you leave and then re-enter the UK.

So indian_in_uk, your only valid driving licence was the UK provisional one, and you were driving unaccompanied, a criminal offence.

your so right john

not to stick the knife in further...

didn't you tell your insurance company that you was driving on an international license? i'm sure if you did, then they would have told you, you needed to pass your uk test within the year, as every insurance company that i got a quote for the wife did.

ignorance is no defense..

Thanks for your replies guys.

I understand and I do agree that it was my fault (Ignorance is no defence as joe777 said). what I am trying to say is that I did not know this when this happened and after the incident I never tried this again. I am a law abiding person and whatever happened was just because of pure ignorance.

I just want to ask as I read in the guidance notes that HomeOffice may choose to ignore "Minor traffic" offences for Naturalisation, is my offence likely to be considered as Minor by any chance? (Thinking that I have been granted ILR)

indian_in_uk wrote:Thanks for your replies guys.

I understand and I do agree that it was my fault (Ignorance is no defence as joe777 said). what I am trying to say is that I did not know this when this happened and after the incident I never tried this again. I am a law abiding person and whatever happened was just because of pure ignorance.

I just want to ask as I read in the guidance notes that HomeOffice may choose to ignore "Minor traffic" offences for Naturalisation, is my offence likely to be considered as Minor by any chance? (Thinking that I have been granted ILR)

I wouldn't say it was minor...

Wanderer, I would agree with that, and the person concerned should feel that they are lucky they were not also prosecuted for not having valid insurance.

indian_in_uk wrote:Thanks for your replies guys.

I understand and I do agree that it was my fault (Ignorance is no defence as joe777 said). what I am trying to say is that I did not know this when this happened and after the incident I never tried this again. I am a law abiding person and whatever happened was just because of pure ignorance.

I just want to ask as I read in the guidance notes that HomeOffice may choose to ignore "Minor traffic" offences for Naturalisation, is my offence likely to be considered as Minor by any chance? (Thinking that I have been granted ILR)

Driving without license is not a minor offence. The caseworker guidance makes it clear that its one of the offences that CANNOT be disregarded while considering an application for naturalisation. Vinny has posted a link to the relevant guidance elsewhere..

Still hope best

pray god , and do good work for community

join police 2 day in a month free service program and hope a lineint view on u

but u must strat on this line to improve yr case

thirdwave wrote:Driving without license is not a minor offence. The caseworker guidance makes it clear that its one of the offences that CANNOT be disregarded while considering an application for naturalisation. Vinny has posted a link to the relevant guidance elsewhere..

See also Naturalisation, when to apply?

the OP is lucky he is not a doctor or things would have been much worse.

doctors who have got prosecuted for such things, apart from the usual points fines conviction etc have been reffered by police / court to gmc. gmc has initiated disciplinary procedures against such people and one person i am aware of lost his gmc registration for conduct unbecoming of a doctor (for conviction as driving without valid license and insurance was not valid for same reasons inspite of paying insurance premium), hence later his job in nhs as he didnt have registration. then i guess had to leave uk as was unemployed, unemployable and with bonus of criminal conviction. also aware of another case simlar issues which was pending court case.

but that doesnt deter quite a few pigheaded migrants driving around on these international licences for 10y knowingly doing so in feigned ignorance especially some not employed spouses who dont have fear of after effects from professional regulation authorities etc!!! i heard about one such spouse even being let off by the cop with a warning not to do it in future when she had been doing that for almost 10y in uk after batting her eyelids and crocodile tears etc. such people doing this for so long need to be locked up. people staying for long times in uk and pleading ignorance is just an excuse. someone new in uk i can understand the ignorance bit.

vinay shanthi wrote:the OP is lucky he is not a doctor or things would have been much worse.

doctors who have got prosecuted for such things, apart from the usual points fines conviction etc have been reffered by police / court to gmc. gmc has initiated disciplinary procedures against such people and one person i am aware of lost his gmc registration for conduct unbecoming of a doctor (for conviction as driving without valid license and insurance was not valid for same reasons inspite of paying insurance premium), hence later his job in nhs as he didnt have registration. then i guess had to leave uk as was unemployed, unemployable and with bonus of criminal conviction. also aware of another case simlar issues which was pending court case.

but that doesnt deter quite a few pigheaded migrants driving around on these international licences for 10y knowingly doing so in feigned ignorance especially some not employed spouses who dont have fear of after effects from professional regulation authorities etc!!! i heard about one such spouse even being let off by the cop with a warning not to do it in future when she had been doing that for almost 10y in uk after batting her eyelids and crocodile tears etc. such people doing this for so long need to be locked up. people staying for long times in uk and pleading ignorance is just an excuse. someone new in uk i can understand the ignorance bit.

well well well, you dnt have to be so excited mate,I mentioned above that after I was caught I did not drive in the UK again.. I have acknowledged my mistake. How come you are so sure that I knew about it? Do you know for how long I was driving in the UK? do you know me ?? I do not think I need a Chacacter certificate from you.. Not everybody is like "one such spouse" that you mentioned in your message.
Just calm down and relax.. and about "pigheaded migrants" - you better mind your language.

Thanks a lot for your comments John, Sushil-ACCA and Vinny, I really appreciate it.

indian_in_uk wrote:

vinay shanthi wrote:the OP is lucky he is not a doctor or things would have been much worse.

doctors who have got prosecuted for such things, apart from the usual points fines conviction etc have been reffered by police / court to gmc. gmc has initiated disciplinary procedures against such people and one person i am aware of lost his gmc registration for conduct unbecoming of a doctor (for conviction as driving without valid license and insurance was not valid for same reasons inspite of paying insurance premium), hence later his job in nhs as he didnt have registration. then i guess had to leave uk as was unemployed, unemployable and with bonus of criminal conviction. also aware of another case simlar issues which was pending court case.

but that doesnt deter quite a few pigheaded migrants driving around on these international licences for 10y knowingly doing so in feigned ignorance especially some not employed spouses who dont have fear of after effects from professional regulation authorities etc!!! i heard about one such spouse even being let off by the cop with a warning not to do it in future when she had been doing that for almost 10y in uk after batting her eyelids and crocodile tears etc. such people doing this for so long need to be locked up. people staying for long times in uk and pleading ignorance is just an excuse. someone new in uk i can understand the ignorance bit.

well well well, you dnt have to be so excited mate,I mentioned above that after I was caught I did not drive in the UK again.. I have acknowledged my mistake. How come you are so sure that I knew about it? Do you know for how long I was driving in the UK? do you know me ?? I do not think I need a Chacacter certificate from you.. Not everybody is like "one such spouse" that you mentioned in your message.
Just calm down and relax.. and about "pigheaded migrants" - you better mind your language.

it is good that u acknowledged ur mistake and didnt drive again on IDL after 1y in uk.

the comments i made were not about u, but about people who drive without uk DL for many years. i was in no way commenting on ur character. i was commenting on those who willingly flout the law for many years on a feigned ignorance of the law.

so relax. and by pigheaded i clearly didnt mean u. i meant the ones who flout the law knowingly for many years and bring honest migrants a bad name. it is very common to find migrants misusing the international driving licences knowingly flouting the law. most of us who have been here in uk a few years will surely have come across many who flout the law like this. and many times they flout the law even after we point out that it is illegal to drive in uk after 1y in uk on IDL. but obviously the still feign ignorance and carry on doing what they do. many of us see this once too many times hence the use of the very appropriate term pig headed. the use of this term in now way refers to people like u who obviously were ignorant of the rules and accepted their mistake (in ur case u publically did so on this forum as well) and dont drive on IDL later.

infact just on friday i was trying to convince another pigheaded migrant not to buy car owhen didnt have uk DL. he has been in uk 2-3y and inspite of me pointing out that it is illegal to drive in uk without uk DL after 1y in uk, he still is planning on doing just that. disgusted with knowing this chap is too light a term to say. i hope he roundly gets caught by police on day 1 and thrown in cooler. then he was giving excuses to me he is not going to drive but just buying a car because he needs one and will keep in parking bay !!!! i hope police forces automatically corelate vehicle ownership and if foreigner then check duration since entry in uk and if not having uk license they should automatically prosecute these chaps only then will such offences decrease.

have a nice day

vinay shanthi wrote:
doctors who have got prosecuted for such things, apart from the usual points fines conviction etc have been reffered by police / court to gmc. gmc has initiated disciplinary procedures against such people and one person i am aware of lost his gmc registration for conduct unbecoming of a doctor (for conviction as driving without valid license and insurance was not valid for same reasons inspite of paying insurance premium), hence later his job in nhs as he didnt have registration. then i guess had to leave uk as was unemployed, unemployable and with bonus of criminal conviction. also aware of another case simlar issues which was pending court case.

A friend of mine was involved in an accident with a car driven by one such doctor who was driving on his Russian licence. The guy had flunked his UK driving test twice and was still driving around after spending more than 2 years in the UK on his Russian licence. The lady had serious injuries as this guy backended her on a road and pushed her off the road including fractured ankle, broken spine, punctured lungs etc. The insurance company notified the police, the guy was cautioned and as far as I know is still happily employed by NHS and happlily driving around!!! The insurance company had to pay more than 70,000 GBP in compensation for the injuries she suffered and she still can not walk properly.

davidm wrote:

vinay shanthi wrote:
doctors who have got prosecuted for such things, apart from the usual points fines conviction etc have been reffered by police / court to gmc. gmc has initiated disciplinary procedures against such people and one person i am aware of lost his gmc registration for conduct unbecoming of a doctor (for conviction as driving without valid license and insurance was not valid for same reasons inspite of paying insurance premium), hence later his job in nhs as he didnt have registration. then i guess had to leave uk as was unemployed, unemployable and with bonus of criminal conviction. also aware of another case simlar issues which was pending court case.

A friend of mine was involved in an accident with a car driven by one such doctor who was driving on his Russian licence. The guy had flunked his UK driving test twice and was still driving around after spending more than 2 years in the UK on his Russian licence. The lady had serious injuries as this guy backended her on a road and pushed her off the road including fractured ankle, broken spine, punctured lungs etc. The insurance company notified the police, the guy was cautioned and as far as I know is still happily employed by NHS and happlily driving around!!! The insurance company had to pay more than 70,000 GBP in compensation for the injuries she suffered and she still can not walk properly.

well u can always report this serious offence to the general medical council under good conduct rules and point out this chap had failed Uk DL exam twice and was driving on IDL after 1y in uk and point out due to this he was driving without valid license and also consequently without valid insurance and hence in breach of good conduct rules of gmc. follow through with this route if interested in redressal of grieviences. then gmc will have to initiate an enquiry and will decide appropriate remedy. previously i do know that some such people have been suspended from the medical register and consequently lost their jobs as well. if my family member was injured like this i wouldnt hesitate one second to see that such people are taken to task by reporting them to all concerned authorities. also just because the police cautioned him, it does not mean that ur friend personally cant file civil and criminal prosecution in personal capacity against the driver. i would have done that as well if affected my family

vinay shanthi wrote: well u can always report this serious offence to the general medical council under good conduct rules and point out this chap had failed Uk DL exam twice and was driving on IDL after 1y in uk and point out due to this he was driving without valid license and also consequently without valid insurance and hence in breach of good conduct rules of gmc. follow through with this route if interested in redressal of grieviences. then gmc will have to initiate an enquiry and will decide appropriate remedy. previously i do know that some such people have been suspended from the medical register and consequently lost their jobs as well. if my family member was injured like this i wouldnt hesitate one second to see that such people are taken to task by reporting them to all concerned authorities. also just because the police cautioned him, it does not mean that ur friend personally cant file civil and criminal prosecution in personal capacity against the driver. i would have done that as well if affected my family

I think she reported this to GMC and GMC told her that since there was no prosecution, they have decided not to do anything against him. She filed a suit against him which was settled by the insurance company and I don't know if they decided to go after this guy. He is still very much practicing in London as per GMC list. I agree with you that one needs to make sure that such scums get a punishment they will never forget but I think she dropped it after GMC told her that there is nothing they are going to do.

i think the response from gmc would have been very different if in the letter complaining to gmc if she had mentioned threat of legal action against gmc if they didnt initiate disciplinary proceedings in the matter.

but it might be too late now if a long time has passed since this has happened. yes i agree such scums should suffer the consequences of their actions. but unfortunately many times the victim is in no postion to enforce rules as their health would have suffered etc so they wont be able to follow up. do hope ur friend gets better soon.

loos like she only initiated civil action. the rsponse might have been different if criminal case had been started privately.

vinay shanthi wrote: but it might be too late now if a long time has passed since this has happened. yes i agree such scums should suffer the consequences of their actions. but unfortunately many times the victim is in no postion to enforce rules as their health would have suffered etc so they wont be able to follow up. do hope ur friend gets better soon.

She sits just across the door from me and I checked with her as the accident happened in 2002- a long time ago. However things have happened at slow pace- she complained to GMC in 2003 and they have taken action against this guy in 2007- they have issued a formal warning to him for criminal behaviour which is valid until 2012. I have told her to write to BIA about this guy and the fact that he was cautioned as this guy might have/ will soon be applying for naturalisation as he came to the UK in early 2001. If you can PM me the address she should send this to I can pass it on to her and make sure that she sends it. She is just 30 and already has arthritis as her ankle was smashed to pieces in the accident and can not have children due to injuries to her uterus and tubes. I feel that people like this who have no respect for human life deserves to be taught a lesson.

davidm wrote:

vinay shanthi wrote: but it might be too late now if a long time has passed since this has happened. yes i agree such scums should suffer the consequences of their actions. but unfortunately many times the victim is in no postion to enforce rules as their health would have suffered etc so they wont be able to follow up. do hope ur friend gets better soon.

She sits just across the door from me and I checked with her as the accident happened in 2002- a long time ago. However things have happened at slow pace- she complained to GMC in 2003 and they have taken action against this guy in 2007- they have issued a formal warning to him for criminal behaviour which is valid until 2012. I have told her to write to BIA about this guy and the fact that he was cautioned as this guy might have/ will soon be applying for naturalisation as he came to the UK in early 2001. If you can PM me the address she should send this to I can pass it on to her and make sure that she sends it. She is just 30 and already has arthritis as her ankle was smashed to pieces in the accident and can not have children due to injuries to her uterus and tubes. I feel that people like this who have no respect for human life deserves to be taught a lesson.

sorry to hear about the injuries suffered by ur friend and life long consequences. it is precisely because of lenience shown to offenders that people dont feel a deterence by committing such offences.

as for contact details see if this link helps. http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/contac ... ctcentres/

also write to them by email or by registered post. insist on them committing in writing whether they have made an annotation on this chaps immigration file that will be used for visa renewal & ilr & naturalisation applications

there is still a chance that he doesnt even have ilr. he might have been on pft visa and then moved to wp or hsmp visa and might still be needing visa renewals or ilr application or naturalisation applications. include full details of injuries suffered and consequences for victim. also try to involve ur area MP and get them to write a letter protesting against renewal of visas or ILR or naturalisation applications for this chap concerned. u can contat them using some of the following links

i am not sending private message and am mentioning all details here itself. hope u find it useful to write to appropriate people in this matter and see redressal of your grieviences.

u can use this website or upmystreet.com etc . that website ( www.writetothem.com ) is not useful if we want to make a template which people can modify and cut paste into that websites contact page. the www.writetothem.com website uses filters and automatically blocks cut pasted messages. hence it cannot be used if people want to contact their MPs by using the template method where in u form a template and use the same to write to many people by slightly modifying the letter for each person. also that website blocks people from sending the messages to people who are not your area MP ! so we cant even write to prominent MPs even if we want to. this website will not provide you with the email addresses or fax etc of your representative. Instead it asks you to fill their form and it sends it to your MP without divulging the MPs contact details to you. When we use their form, it is difficult to send your personal formatted mails as it might not suit the form on the website.

The template method of writing to MPs will be useful for many people who themselves wont take the trouble of forming a document from scratch to write to their representative. How ever many of the same people might still be interested in contacting their representative if people (like you for your friend) make available a template which they will copy paste or slightly modify and send.

BUT I RESEARCHED AND FOUND THIS BETTER ALTERNATIVE (in my opinion). If we want to contact as many MPs and Lords and MEPs and Councillors as possible then we have to follow the following method. I dont think there is an easier method (to the best of my knowledge).

use this link http://www.upmystreet.com/commons/l/ to find your area MP and after entering your post code, you will get all contact details of your MP and you can send an email directly from your email account, no need to fill forms etc and in your email you can send your personal formatted templates or attachments. hence this option will be better suited for mass mailing campaigns by using templates etc to encourage members to send letters / emails by people to their representatives. this will be useful for all future such campaigns by immigrants for immigrant campaigns as well in other matters.

u can use the same method for contacting prominent MPs in other areas as well.

U DONT NEED TO WASTE MONEY ON POST ETC. u can just email all of them for free ! also when u write to them, to prove the authenticity of the complaint, please include police complaint number, hospital were admitted at time of injuries, how long in hospital and how long out of work and if able to work now etc etc etc

for house of lords members see alphabetical list http://www.parliament.uk/directories/ho ... embers.cfm
next to each name on the list is a link to their biography, many give their contact details there including email addresses, many dont give it. obviously those who dont give it dont want to be contacted. lords are not paid, hence many wont have secretaries or an office etc

for MEPs (member of european parliament) see this link for all UK MEPS and contact details
http://www.europarl.org.uk/uk_meps/MembersMain.htm

contact details for MSPs (member of scottish parliament) http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/m ... /index.htm

National Assembly for Wales members http://www.assemblywales.org/memhome/member-search.htm in this link you will get a map, click on the map to see Member then click them for contact details or by postcode

Northern Ireland Assembly membership http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/members/membership07.htm

select committee members http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hc ... mem.cfm#67

local council members http://www.upmystreet.com/enter-locatio ... il-reps/l/

the above links whould keep u busy for a while hope u find the links useful. hope ur friend gets better soon.

i had researched the above methods for planning mass campaigns by immigrant organisations in these hsmp issues by a few organisations i am involved with like bapio and other forums etc

have a nice day

Thanks a lot. I will pass this onto her and might need to push her to follow things up a bit as she is too kind on people (her general attitude is that I don't want to ruin this guy's life).

some might find the above methods a bit over the top. . but i believe in fighting with the gloves off rather than shadow boxing and wasting time. fight properly or dont waste your own time. call it a day if things not working out. u need to move on in life as well. no point dwelling in the past. see what suits u best.

i knew very good people (a young doctor and mother who had just had a small child a fw months before who was killed while she waited at a traffic light by a bum who rammed into her from behind) who were killed by such careless drivers as well. hence feel that lenience should not be shown to such callous people

my brother was lucky not to get killed by another such careless driver who hit him on a motorway and my brother vehicle filled over the median and landed on opposite side of motorway. luckily the oncoming traffic didnt hit him. the offender was a pretty lady who came from a exit and hit him from the side. but used her charms on police officer at scene who said to my brother that court cases take long and difficult to prove etc. car was almost a write off. but my brother was too dazed to say anything and policeman filled in incident report as he wished and the opposite party got away without even a prosecution ! thankfully my brother wasnt hurt badly.