Stamp 4 EUFam visa doubt

JonSnow1 · Post by **JonSnow1** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:48 pm

Hi there, I currently hold a Stamp 4 EUFam visa to reside in Ireland which is valid until 2022. I am married to a Italian citizen who has been living in Ireland since 2016, however since November 2018 we have both been out of Ireland for volunteering and travel abroad.

Now we thinking it's time to go back home, in Ireland, but we are not clear on my visa situation. Can anyone here advise me if my visa is still valid, or if I would have problems with immigration upon arrival at the airport?

Thank you very much for your help (=

Granista · Post by **Granista** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:15 pm

First of all, you are referring to a residence status, which is not a visa. Stamp 4 EU FAM is a residence permission. A visa is a permission to ENTER the country. Your residence permission is now invalidated as you do not live in Ireland, you left well over a year ago. So what you need to now apply for is an actual VISA. If you are travelling with your EU spouse you need an EUTR visa.
You will not be granted leave to land at the airport with an invalid, out of date, residence card. And yes, they will know.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:33 am

If joining or accompanying your wife, you have a right to entry at the port, irrespective of the position with the Residence Card.

Granista · Post by **Granista** » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:30 pm

Obie wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:33 am
If joining or accompanying your wife, you have a right to entry at the port, irrespective of the position with the Residence Card.

Not true. You need an EUTR visa. If you are accompanying your spouse and have all the relevant documentation on you, properly translated and attested, you might get in the airport anyway. Or you might not.
You are a visa required national and you need a Visa. Listening to the bad advice from the pp will likely get you returned to your previous destination, and he's not going to help you then.

cyberhawk · Post by **cyberhawk** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:18 pm

I would tend to agree with Obie but you can send an email to EUTR to confirm. They normally reply within a week!

JonSnow1 · Post by **JonSnow1** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:28 pm

@Obie, Thanks for your info.

@Granista, thanks for the thorough info. Do you think I need a visa from the embassy even if I am a non-visa required national?

Worst case scenario my current residence permission gets revoked at the border control, and I get a temporary stamp in order to apply for a new permission, right? If I am travelling with my wife there is no reason for me to be barred from entering the country, right?

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:09 pm

As a Qualifying Family member who is not a visa national you are exempted from the visa requirement under Regulation 4(3).

(3)(a) A qualifying family member who is not a member of a class of non-nationals specified in an order made under section 17 of the Immigration Act 2004 (No. 1 of 2004) as not requiring an Irish visa shall be in possession of a valid Irish visa as a condition of being granted permission to enter the State.

However, even if that were not the case, you will still be able to secure visa at the port in accordance with Regulation 4(5).

Granista · Post by **Granista** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:59 pm

You will NOT be able to secure a visa at the port of entry, Ireland has no facility to issue visas at the border.

Obie is unaware of what "visa" means.

JonSnow1 · Post by **JonSnow1** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:12 pm

Granista wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:59 pm
You will NOT be able to secure a visa at the port of entry, Ireland has no facility to issue visas at the border.

Obie is unaware of what "visa" means.

But as I said before, I am a national of a country that does not require a visa to enter Ireland for up to 90 days. What you are saying is that I still should apply for a visa before going back to Ireland?

Sorry, but I am still very confused. And no one picks up the phone at the consulate >.<

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:29 pm

Granista wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:59 pm
You will NOT be able to secure a visa at the port of entry, Ireland has no facility to issue visas at the border.

Obie is unaware of what "visa" means.

I believe you are the one who does not understand what visa means, you have no clue of Irish law and court case laws.

I have sent binding authorities for you to read but you continue to act in total ignorance and in a state of confusion.

If you continue to confuse fellow member by constantly providing inaccurate information, and trying to cause discord, then you will be barred as your contribution will be counterproductive to the smooth running of the forum.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:36 pm

Raducan & Anor -v- MJELR & Ors [2011] IEHC 224 (03 June 2011) wrote:
23. It is clear from the evidence of Sergeant Biggins – indeed, he swore an affidavit to this effect – that such visas cannot be obtained at Dublin Airport and that any third country spouse can only apply on line from abroad for such a visa. This is clearly is a manifest breach of Article 5(2), since it could hardly be said that the State has afforded “such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas.” One need hardly add that the absence of such a facility means that the State is also plainly failing in its obligation to issue such visas “as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.” There was thus a clear breach of the Directive in that Ms. Raducan was not offered the possibility of securing a visa on her arrival at Dublin Airport.

24. Nor can it be said in the present case that the State has complied with its duty with regard to Article 5(4) which was, before turning the applicant back, to give her “every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.” In this context it was striking that the State had plainly not given its immigration officers appropriate training regarding the family residence card, since neither Garda McCormack nor Sergeant Biggins had ever encountered such a card prior to the present litigation and nor were they aware of same.

This is EU law, this is the correct position of the law, this is Regulation 4(5) of the Irish 2015 Regulation. This Judge is one of Ireland's most respected. His decision was not challenged and a basis of EU law. Mrs Raducan was accordingly issued damages.

I am getting increasingly irritated by your wrong information to contributors. Unless you can provide authority to counter my cited authorities, i will have to discontinue your membership if you continue trolling.

Granista · Post by **Granista** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:09 pm

I'm not trolling, I'm just point out where your advice is wrong. Do you have a habit of banning anyone who disagrees with you?

You stated a visa could be procured at the airport. You and I both know that is not true. So why say it?

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:27 pm

I do not argue based on my personal views and opinion. I argue based on the law. What the court says is the law. I provide evidence to back up the views I express. I do not engage in personal attacks.

I have been on this forum for nearly 11 years, I do not ban people for disagreeing with me and many people have.

Instead of addressing the legal authority and point I raised, you are positing views which are not supported by evidence and this carries the risk of confusing and misleading the thousands of individuals who access the forum and it is not something the forum will tolerate.

If you are not prepared to accept the Settled law from Irish Court, and the law of Ireland, then you are not officer of the court, you are not a proper jurist. In those circumstances, there is little to argue or discuss about.

Granista · Post by **Granista** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:30 pm

The law is the law. But there are very few lawyers working for INIS, and what actually happens on the ground day to day has very little to do with the law.
A pinch of reality would be very useful to the people you are giving advice to, its no good to them you spouting on about what you think this law and that law means if that doesn't reflect the reality. And it doesn't.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:34 pm

Granista wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:30 pm
The law is the law. But there are very few lawyers working for INIS, and what actually happens on the ground day to day has very little to do with the law.
A pinch of reality would be very useful to the people you are giving advice to, its no good to them you spouting on about what you think this law and that law means if that doesn't reflect the reality. And it doesn't.

I will have no problem accepting that.

I understand IO in Dublin uses discretion in areas where it should not apply.

I will also accept you advising individuals to obtain a visa prior to entry for ease of travel and to ensure that they do not encounter difficulties.

I am reasonable enough to accept all of those prepositions.

Granista · Post by **Granista** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:57 pm

And you need to also accept that the OP in this case was visa required, and was properly denied entry as he didn't have one.
The ICO did not possess the necessary to do a full assessment of the OP's case, and had no discretion. The only option available was to refuse entry.

I would have done the same. OP is not Raducan.

Obie · Post by **Obie** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:45 pm

This OP is not visa national and has not been refused entry so there is nothing to accept.

He does not require visa, as he is not persons who under Section 17 of the 2004 Act requires visa to enter Ireland.

I do not wish to deal with Raducan issue any more, it was a short judgement, by one of Ireland leading judges, it establishes principles of general applicability.

littlerr · Post by **littlerr** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:15 pm

The OP does not need a visa because of his nationality. That has nothing to do with Stamp 4EUFAM.

The question is whether the OP’s existing Stamp 4EUFAM would be revoked. If it’s not revoked, the OP would be able to use the current Stamp 4EUFAM to gain entry.

However, since the OP has not informed INIS about the extended period of absence with proper explanation, there is a chance that the OP’s current Stamp 4EUFAM has already been revoked. If this happens, the OP may get roasted upon arrival in Ireland. The OP should state his/her intention to exercise their EU spouse’s Treaty rights again as a new entrant.

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