Experiences of NL visit without Schengen visa but with EEA2

bdb303 · Post by **bdb303** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:13 am

Was a disappointment travelling to the Netherlands without the Schengen visa for my wife (she has an EEA2 permit).

It seemed the border guards were not aware that the Netherlands had implemented Directive 2004/38/EC in May 2008. We were taken away and then after a 10 minute discussion, were finally able to enter the country. Fortunately I had a printout from the Dutch embassy stating that the Schengen visa was no longer needed, but still a bit disappointing that the border guards needed to have their memory refreshed by me.

I think the border guards may have been affected by the following:
1) I am Dutch citizen and they know that immigration regulations are stricter for me than for EU citizens. One guard didn't seem to know that I now qualify as EU citizen because I am exercising my treaty rights in the UK.
2)My wife had always previously entered NL with a Schengen visa and they could see that in her passport = even as recently as the beginning of May when the Dutch embassy in London was still willing to give a Schengen visa.
3) Our marriage certificate was from the Philippines, they weren't sure if that was legal (!).

I then argued with the guards about putting a stamp, but they said they had to that 'in lieu' of the Schengen visa. In any case I think this is quite handy as next time we try to enter NL at least they can see we've entered before without a visa.

mrlookforward · Post by **mrlookforward** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:48 pm

bdb303 wrote:Was a disappointment travelling to the Netherlands without the Schengen visa for my wife (she has an EEA2 permit).

It seemed the border guards were not aware that the Netherlands had implemented Directive 2004/38/EC in May 2008. We were taken away and then after a 10 minute discussion, were finally able to enter the country. Fortunately I had a printout from the Dutch embassy stating that the Schengen visa was no longer needed, but still a bit disappointing that the border guards needed to have their memory refreshed by me.

I think the border guards may have been affected by the following:
1) I am Dutch citizen and they know that immigration regulations are stricter for me than for EU citizens. One guard didn't seem to know that I now qualify as EU citizen because I am exercising my treaty rights in the UK.
2)My wife had always previously entered NL with a Schengen visa and they could see that in her passport = even as recently as the beginning of May when the Dutch embassy in London was still willing to give a Schengen visa.
3) Our marriage certificate was from the Philippines, they weren't sure if that was legal (!).

I then argued with the guards about putting a stamp, but they said they had to that 'in lieu' of the Schengen visa. In any case I think this is quite handy as next time we try to enter NL at least they can see we've entered before without a visa.

Can you please read carefully what you have posted and then tell us if that makes any sense?

isceon · Post by **isceon** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:10 pm

crystal clear.

Thanks for sharing your experience bdb303

mrlookforward · Post by **mrlookforward** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:46 pm

[quote="isceon"]crystal clear.

Thanks for sharing your experience bdb303[/quote

oh yea, very very crystal clear

bdb303 · Post by **bdb303** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:42 am

Mr Look Forward, no idea what you are on about, do tell.

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:10 am

We went through Amsterdam just before XMAS. My wife (Resident of the UK) has a 3 year Schengen Visa in her passport. When handing over the passports the Immigration officer asked if we were married. When we answered that we were he asked if we resided in the UK. He had a quick look at the Residence Permit in the passport and returned our passports and wished us a good stay.

When my wife asked him if he didn't wanna stamp the Schengen Visa he told her that she didn't need one anymore for entry into the Netherlands.

Plum70 · Post by **Plum70** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:09 am

When my wife asked him if he didn't wanna stamp the Schengen Visa he told her that she didn't need one anymore for entry into the Netherlands.]

It would be interesting and helpful to know if this would have been the case if your wife was travelling solo.

bdb303 · Post by **bdb303** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:40 am

Plum70 - funnily enough I asked them that. At first they said it wasn't possible. I then told them it is allowed if she is coming to NL to join me here, they agreed but then said it was maybe "a wise idea" if I was there at the airport to pick her up...

Again I don't know if they're being strict because I am a Dutch citizen (we get treated differently from other EU citizens) or if they really do not prefer this method of entry.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:52 pm

See also http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... mi&start=0

Plum70 · Post by **Plum70** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:24 pm

bdb303 wrote:Plum70 - funnily enough I asked them that. At first they said it wasn't possible. I then told them it is allowed if she is coming to NL to join me here, they agreed but then said it was maybe "a wise idea" if I was there at the airport to pick her up...

Again I don't know if they're being strict because I am a Dutch citizen (we get treated differently from other EU citizens) or if they really do not prefer this method of entry.

So it may well be that non-EEA family members are unable to travel to The Netherlands without an appropriate Schengen visa (irrespective of possessing a UK residence card). But with the Dutch embassy in the UK refusing to issue a Schengen visa to such persons what is the direct solution (other than applying via another schengen state)?
I doubt that Dutch nationals (exercising their treaty rights in another member state) travelling to the Netherlands with their family members would be treated differently from other EEA/EU nationals. Why would they be?

bdb303 · Post by **bdb303** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:34 pm

Plum not really sure this answers you're question, but non-EEA spouses are actually allowed to apply for a Schengen visa with the Dutch embassy if travelling alone (of course then they are charged and it is treated as a normal application).

You're right, Dutch nationals (exercising EU treaty rights) should not be treated any differently, but I do suspect that some border guards are pre-conditioned to be strict to any foreign partners of Dutch nationals and may 'forget' to consider that a Dutch national might actually be exercising EU treaty rights.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:07 pm

bdb303 wrote:Plum not really sure this answers you're question, but non-EEA spouses are actually allowed to apply for a Schengen visa with the Dutch embassy if travelling alone (of course then they are charged and it is treated as a normal application).

Hmm, the CCI read

Common Consular Instructions, VII 4. wrote: However, no fees are to be charged for administrative costs
for visa applications lodged by nationals of third countries
who are members of the family of a Union citizen or of a
national of a State party to the EEA Agreement, and who
are exercising their right to free movement.

I can't see anything there that would require the couple to travel together.

bdb303 wrote:You're right, Dutch nationals (exercising EU treaty rights) should not be treated any differently

The Germans did that in the past and the Polish still do it.
http://www.londynkg.polemb.net/index.php?document=135

Plum70 · Post by **Plum70** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:12 pm

Hmm, the CCI read
Common Consular Instructions, VII 4. wrote: However, no fees are to be charged for administrative costs
for visa applications lodged by nationals of third countries
who are members of the family of a Union citizen or of a
national of a State party to the EEA Agreement, and who
are exercising their right to free movement.
I can't see anything there that would require the couple to travel together.

This was my thinking as well but it appears that the justification for a free Schengen visa for the non-EEA applicant is that they travel with/to join their EU spouse. This makes me wonder whether I would be able to travel alone on the French schengen visa issued gratis because hubby and I were travelling together? Would I perhaps need to apply and pay for another Schengen visa (if I was taken a solo trip) as the current one has the remark "Famille de ressortissant Suisse"? Which is exactly what I am!

isceon · Post by **isceon** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:58 pm

I have applied many times and travelled hundreds of times without my ex EEA spouse to france with no problem .At the border they can ask you where your spouse is and what she does that s all.
They never charged me for the shenghen visas I had (french embassy).
The shenghen visa is free for EEA family member without conditions of accompanying them.
I think if you travel with your EEA spouse and you have aRC you don t need a visa at all.

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:04 pm

Plum70 wrote:
When my wife asked him if he didn't wanna stamp the Schengen Visa he told her that she didn't need one anymore for entry into the Netherlands.]
It would be interesting and helpful to know if this would have been the case if your wife was travelling solo.

Strictly speaking, the non-EU spouse has a right of free movement in the EU only when doing it with the EU spouse. "With" means either that they are travelling together (as in two seats together), or the non-EU spouse is travelling to join the EU spouse. Hence the comment that you should meet the non-EU spouse at the airport probably makes a lot of sense.

Christophe · Post by **Christophe** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:15 pm

mrlookforward wrote:Can you please read carefully what you have posted and then tell us if that makes any sense?

It makes sense to me...

Plum70 · Post by **Plum70** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:59 pm

I have applied many times and travelled hundreds of times without my ex EEA spouse to france with no problem .At the border they can ask you where your spouse is and what she does that s all.
They never charged me for the shenghen visas I had (french embassy).

Did the visa officer know that you were travelling without your EU spouse?

The shenghen visa is free for EEA family member without conditions of accompanying them.

100% sure about this?

I think if you travel with your EEA spouse and you have a RC you don t need a visa at all.

Won't work for the French. My husband and I were in Paris last month and my schengen visa must have been checked 8 times to and fro! Even worse on our way back to the UK the airline staff kept asking for my UK visa irrespective of the UK Residence Card vignette affixed in my passport. We had to explain at every opportunity that I hold a UK residence permit not a visa. They apologised and confessed that they'd never seen or heard of such!

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:26 pm

Plum70 wrote:
The shenghen visa is free for EEA family member without conditions of accompanying them.
100% sure about this?

I am 100% sure they are wrong. Some embassy might possibly want to offer this to family members of EU citizens, but I doubt it and I would not be surprised if it is prohibited by the Schengen common rules.

isceon · Post by **isceon** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:22 pm

Plum70 wrote:
I have applied many times and travelled hundreds of times without my ex EEA spouse to france with no problem .At the border they can ask you where your spouse is and what she does that s all.
They never charged me for the shenghen visas I had (french embassy).
Did the visa officer know that you were travelling without your EU spouse?Yes everytime they ask about my ex whereabout and I just tell the truth :working that's all.It is only when you don't have a visa that they require you to be accompanied by your spouse.
The shenghen visa is free for EEA family member without conditions of accompanying them.
100% sure about this? yes 100%
I think if you travel with your EEA spouse and you have a RC you don t need a visa at all.
Won't work for the French. My husband and I were in Paris last month and my schengen visa must have been checked 8 times to and fro! Even worse on our way back to the UK the airline staff kept asking for my UK visa irrespective of the UK Residence Card vignette affixed in my passport. We had to explain at every opportunity that I hold a UK residence permit not a visa. They apologised and confessed that they'd never seen or heard of such!

The french are not complying with directive 2004 about the point of no visa required for RC holders you are right but other EU countries do.

isceon · Post by **isceon** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:29 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
Plum70 wrote:
The shenghen visa is free for EEA family member without conditions of accompanying them.
100% sure about this?
I am 100% sure they are wrong. Some embassy might possibly want to offer this to family members of EU citizens, but I doubt it and I would not be surprised if it is prohibited by the Schengen common rules.

Sorry to contradict you but unless you calling me a liar but I applied many times for shenghen visa as a EEA family member from french embassy in london wich have been issed free of charge with no problem without any conditions at all.Again I travelled alone .

Directive/2004/38/EC · Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:11 pm

isceon wrote:Sorry to contradict you but unless you calling me a liar but I applied many times for shenghen visa as a EEA family member from french embassy in london wich have been issed free of charge with no problem without any conditions at all.Again I travelled alone .

I am glad to hear it has worked out well for you!

In general, you do not have any guarantees if you travel alone (without your EU spouse). They could reasonably refuse you entry at the border. Your RIGHT of free movement (and free visas) is ONLY when you will travel with your spouse.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:29 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
isceon wrote:In general, you do not have any guarantees if you travel alone (without your EU spouse). They could reasonably refuse you entry at the border.

Why? Isceon had a valid Schengen visa. Unless the visa explicitly states that he got his visa as a family member or the border guards have other information how isceon got the visa how can they possibly deny entry? Schengen visa, Schenge rules=CCI. As I said before, I don't see anything in there that required travelling together or joining the spouse. The Schengen application form doesn't ask for that either.

Plum70 · Post by **Plum70** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:49 am

Isceon had a valid Schengen visa. Unless the visa explicitly states that he got his visa as a family member or the border guards have other information how isceon got the visa how can they possibly deny entry?

Well my French Schengen visa does have the remark "Famille de ressortisant Suisse" = Family member of a Swiss national. So I guess in my case I should not risk travelling without my spouse. I am quite confused about this...

Can someone please verify from law the position of non-EEA family members who wish to travel within the Schengen area without their EU spouses?

isceon · Post by **isceon** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:23 pm

Plum70 wrote:
Isceon had a valid Schengen visa. Unless the visa explicitly states that he got his visa as a family member or the border guards have other information how isceon got the visa how can they possibly deny entry?
Well my French Schengen visa does have the remark "Famille de ressortisant Suisse" = Family member of a Swiss national. So I guess in my case I should not risk travelling without my spouse. I am quite confused about this...

Can someone please verify from law the position of non-EEA family members who wish to travel within the Schengen area without their EU spouses?

Hi there in my visas I had famille EU/EEE
valable pour etats shenghen pour 90 jours validite 1 an entrees multiples type de visa c (court sejour)
I do not understand your worries it is a shenghen visa with no condition on it otherwise they would mention accompagne de son epouse(on the sticker)

I think it would be ridiculous .
If you have been issued a visa it means they are satisfied you are an EEA family member exercising treaty right surely you can come and go with or without your spouse as you wish.If you travel without visa (and you could )then your spouse presence would be mandatory in order to prove that you are covered by free movement.
Let me tell you something go and do not worry.All my friends and myself travelled a lot with those visas and it's always the same question where is your spouse?are u still married?nice trip...

and sometimes it is very annoying to hear them.
I think people are trying to complicate things more than they are.

This is from shenghen border controls instructions .I could not see anywhere saying if you had a shenghen visa you should be accompanied with your spouse.
Bon voyage l' ami swiss is in shenghen now

3. Special rules for checks on certain categories of persons
3.1 Persons enjoying the Community right of free movement
3.1.1 Persons enjoying the Community right of free movement are authorised to cross the border
of a Member State on the basis of the following documents, as a general rule:
â€“ EU, EEA, CH citizens: identity card or passport;
â€“ members of the family of EU, EEA, CH citizens who are nationals of a third country:
passport. They may also be required to have an entry visa, if they are nationals of a third
country subject to the visa obligation, unless they are in possession of a valid residence
permit or card, issued by a Member State (or by EEA countries or CH).
N.B. On the basis of the Agreement between the European Community and its Member
States, of one part, and the Swiss Confederation, of the other, on the free movement of
persons, the above also covers the employees, irrespective of their nationality, of persons
providing services, who are integrated in the labour market of Switzerland or one of the
Member States and posted for the provision of a service in the territory of Switzerland or
one of the Member States (Article 17 of Annex I to the Agreement).
3.1.2 However, if a person enjoying the Community right of free movement does not have the
necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State
concerned must, before turning him/her back, give such person every reasonable
opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to him/her within a
reasonable period of time or corroborate or prove by other means that he/she is covered by
the right of free movement.
3.1.3 As a consequence, checks on persons enjoying the Community right of free movement
should be limited, as a general rule, to the verification of their identity and nationality
/family ties (so-called â€œminimum checkâ€

isceon · Post by **isceon** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:27 pm

you should buy a Eurostar ticket for a week end and try it relax and enjoy Paris for Â£90

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Experiences of NL visit without Schengen visa but with EEA2

Experiences of NL visit without Schengen visa but with EEA2

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Re: Experiences of NL visit without Schengen visa but with E

Re: Experiences of NL visit without Schengen visa but with E