mktsoi wrote:walrusgumble wrote:mktsoi wrote:mrlookforward wrote:Rely on UK?
Well, in uk there is no appeal for naturalisation refusals, hence there is no case law as such at all. I have tried to see if there have been any Judicial Reviews of the naturalisation, but just cant manage to find any information. Even if there was a JR case, it wont be binding on UK govt for every applicant, as naturalisation is at discretion. I would love to hear from someone if they can point me in the right direction to trace any JR outcomes of UK naturalisation refusals.
thanks.
Thats right. It is discretion power that Minister has in UK and Ireland. Also, in Australia. I would say pretty much in all the government as well. Perfect example. Just look at Mohamed Al-Fayed. He has been looking for a British Passport for long time. He has not got one. He has all the money in the world and both Conservative and Labour Home Office Secretary turned him down.
It is so un fair in this world eh!
Mohammed Al Fayed , refusal. Do you understand why he was refused?.
And no not because of his recent stance on the that family in London. Arms dealers anyone ro the couple of arrests regardind allegations to fraud (in fairness he got off) or bringing the police into disrupt for a failed court cases against the police, or cash for questions to MP's ? Money does not buy class.Incidently, he brought a Judicial Review case in England. I will get a transcript when I can. So in this case, it was not unfair to give him citizenship despite his wealth and money he raised etc in Britian. Could count himself lucky he was tolerated in the UK for so long.
Look, I was referring to the unfair discretion power that Minister has. Money does buy class at some stage. Look at the famous Hindujas brothers and Peter Mandelson's case. Dont tell me that Hindujas brother are any better than Al-fayed. Take a closer look in Ireland itself. Remember that Mr McDowell Passport for sale scheme was in Ireland years ago. I am agreed with you in some way. Yes money cannot buy everything but it helps in someway.
I am simply replying to your example, Mohammed Al Fayed. By using him as an example, I have presumed that you are using him as an example of how unfair this discretion is. Now you can correct me if that presumption is wrong or confirm whether or not it was your intention to use Al Fayed as an example. If I am correct, then you will see, by the examples given, he could not be said to have acted impecably over the years, regardless of what he brought to Britain, and dare I say, English Football.
Mr McDowell Passport Scheme? The scheme that you are referring to did not occur whilst McDowell was in Power. You are referring to the period of 1988-1994. That scheme, was novle and had the potential of being an excellent idea on paper - ie reward those who have heavily contributed into Irish society when Ireland was showing signs of economic growth. However, being the nature of the nod and wink environment of Irish politics and the characters of some of those who got the passports, it was doomed. If people were clean, there was nothing really too wrong with it, provided that the receiptant would abide by IRish law and act respectively as an Irish citizen.
Your are right about the Mandelson matter and the apparent hypcrosy, but did those lads bring / attempted to bring English Establishments like the Crown and Police into disrepute?Who were Mandy's friends anyway? What has it got to do with Ireland?
How is it unfair, under an Irish situation. You are told to be of good character. Good character means not getting into any trouble, regardless of conviction or being acquitted (on road traffic matters that is or minor offences on basis of technicality). You are also required to have resided in the State for 60 months (or least if a refugee and or married to Irish citizen), you are also required to self sufficent for at least 3 years before making application (i would imagine refugees would be treated more fairly). Once you meet these requirements, its unlikely one will be refused. Have you ever heard anyone being refused before after meeting these requirements?
Good character, now that one is open for interpretation, particularily if the crime was committed 4-5 years ago. But it is crystal clear from the Minister that good character means absolutely no criminal offences or appearances before a criminal court answering to charges. In case you have not realised, Road Traffic Crimes and Offences are taken rather seriously here (obviously not for those who constantly drink drive and speed etc) It is the cause of too many needless deaths. Failure to pay your tax and insurance, deprives the State of income, its akin to stealing and its dishonest when there is an intentional failure to be insured whilst driving. You get behind a wheel, you owe a duty of care to yourself, passengers and anyone else who uses the road. THere are no excuses for not having your seat belt on, not insuring that your car has passed the NCT test, no excuse for speeding etc.
None of those matters use the Minister discretion. They are not arbitary as its well known policy, as provided by legislation. If you are deemed not to be of good character, then you fail. End of. Unless you have good reasons to get citizenship then you fail. THere is no use of discretion there.
However, depending on the circumstances of the cases, like the one above, the legislation provides that the Minister may waive certain criterias. To anyone, that is a clear indiciation of the Minister having power to use his discretion in the persons favour. Examples such as refugee status and strong Irish family links may greatly help. So hardly use of unfair discretion is it?
THe Minister, in any country, is expected to maintain the intergrity of its citizenship laws. If people of any particular country found out that immigrants were getting citizenship despite having previous criminal record in those states, how do you think the people would react?
It goes back to the principle, citizenship is not a right but a priviledge and in order to obtain that priviledge, its not enough to have a couple of quid and simply reside in the state long enough (or how I put it, collect 12 crisp packets to get your prize), there are further conditions to comply with.