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Using solicitors to speed-up naturalisation decision

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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MidnightHawk
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Using solicitors to speed-up naturalisation decision

Post by MidnightHawk » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:02 am

I called at end of March '11 and were told my file was sent to the minister in middle of March and was told decision should take 4-6 weeks. That deadline has now passed (almost 11 weeks since the date sent) and still no answer.

I spoke to them recently again and all that the (friendly) women could tell me is that it hasn't been sent back and that I'd need to wait another 4-6 weeks.

I saw in SCRUDU's spreadsheet that some individuals (applying on basis of 5 years w/work permit) got a decision by using solicitors. Is this worth the effort? I am hoping someone could give me more information regarding this and at what point should I approach one. Someone mentioned that his barrister enforced the six month rule - although I am unsure what that means.

Any advice would be appreciated.

aswadref
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Post by aswadref » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:08 am

i dont know if u read the comment they spent about €5000 for that,if ur nearly on the final stages dont see any point doing that or may be senior members might have something else to say

ChIrl
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Re: Using solicitors to speed-up naturalisation decision

Post by ChIrl » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:38 am

I wouldn't advise going thru Solicitors at this stage and also for new applicants. Going thru Solicitors have actually delayed the process for my friends because he forgot to respond to the queries from INIS in time.

You can send reminders directly.
MidnightHawk wrote:I called at end of March '11 and were told my file was sent to the minister in middle of March and was told decision should take 4-6 weeks. That deadline has now passed (almost 11 weeks since the date sent) and still no answer.

I spoke to them recently again and all that the (friendly) women could tell me is that it hasn't been sent back and that I'd need to wait another 4-6 weeks.

I saw in SCRUDU's spreadsheet that some individuals (applying on basis of 5 years w/work permit) got a decision by using solicitors. Is this worth the effort? I am hoping someone could give me more information regarding this and at what point should I approach one. Someone mentioned that his barrister enforced the six month rule - although I am unsure what that means.

Any advice would be appreciated.

ImmigrationLawyer
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Post by ImmigrationLawyer » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:39 pm

How long are you waiting overall? A solicitor could threaten court proceedings but this may not have any effect on the Department!

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:17 pm

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:How long are you waiting overall? A solicitor could threaten court proceedings but this may not have any effect on the Department!
i would be far more concerned with what high court says.assuming op never delayed in responding to the department,it would nearly need 4 years+ delay before court will act

ImmigrationLawyer
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Post by ImmigrationLawyer » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:56 am

Do you have authority for this? I don't think there is any judgement on length of time unreasonable for naturalisation.. :cry:

Muttsnuts
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Post by Muttsnuts » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:08 am

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:Do you have authority for this? I don't think there is any judgement on length of time unreasonable for naturalisation.. :cry:
I don't have any judgement handy but the High Court has confirmed that the Nationality and Citizenship Acts give the Minister for Justice a very wide discretion in relation to Citizenship and that the only way for the Court to intervene would be where there is some element of mala fides on the part of the Minister.

Essentially, the current position is that threats of JR are pointless in relation to Citizenship applications.

However, that's not to say that an excessive delay would not be actionable. It's just that it would be likely to fail given the High Court's views.

beady eye
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Post by beady eye » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:24 am

hello members. i have applied in June 2008 through my solicitor because if you remember there was a declaration that has to be signed by comissioner r solicitors that he "personally" know you. so i had to choose solicitor to forward my case because he would not sign just the paper he was taking full case obviously more money for him.

i applied as spouse of born irish citizen. i have 2 daughters i never claim social never arrest no points. any time i ring them which i am doing for the last year i am fobbed off by saying they are waiting on "Garda Checks". i was looking in the timeline tracker and senior member 9jeirein detailed report of citizenship system it is clear garda check dont take that long. my Labour TD asked in dail he got same response like every1 else, he also email DOJ and got same response that it is in processing so when decided it will be issued to applicant.

anytime i go to my solicitor he tells me that there are more people waiting like doctors for more than 4 years you are no different. i know it is bullshit because my friend who is also indian national but on IT permit got his approval he applied in september 2008. and if i tell me lawyer he say its an exceptional case. it is not coz i can see on the tracker of senior member Scrudu that it is not. he say there is no case for court case to court is that true? i was offered good job in UK from my previous irish boss who moved there it was a dream job and i cant go because my lawyer warned that if i go my case will go bad condition is applicant stay in ireland. i appreciate your advise as i posted few times without any response. it looks like people want to hear what they want to.

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Post by fatty patty » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:39 pm

Your solicitors cannot apply for a court case simply because there is a delay in your application, since citizenship is at minister's discretion and not a law the only way JR is accepted in courts is if there is a refusal. Only then the barristers can look at the grounds for refusal and go for JR. Unfortunately this is how citizenship is, a lottery system and cherry picking, there are people waiting more than 4 years on their cases although you can live in UK while your citizenship case is pending here imho.

ImmigrationLawyer
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Post by ImmigrationLawyer » Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:40 am

That's not strictly true, the poster can apply for a judicial review seeking an order that the Minister make a decision on the case... which may or may not be successful. the law is not clear cut. The problem is if you lose you will be ordered to pay the costs of the Minister, and this is what puts a lot of people off applying. :?

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Post by walrusgumble » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:37 pm

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:Do you have authority for this? I don't think there is any judgement on length of time unreasonable for naturalisation.. :cry:
in summer of 2009 harding clarke gave a decision on delay for citizenship,i think a supreme court case is pending. in october 2009 judge cooke gave a decision for long term residency.hang on , will get the judgment on courts.ie.neither judge ever gave a time limit but 2-3 years delay is rather long.this was despite a favourable judgment of judge edwards on a different application. idont think i minister could get away with 4 years though

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:45 pm

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:That's not strictly true, the poster can apply for a judicial review seeking an order that the Minister make a decision on the case... which may or may not be successful. the law is not clear cut. The problem is if you lose you will be ordered to pay the costs of the Minister, and this is what puts a lot of people off applying. :?
a declaration is all they will get,which is not worth the paper its written on. judges are reluctant to give mandamus orders as the current judges don't believe that it should dictate how state resources are spent.

beady eye
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Post by beady eye » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:44 pm

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:That's not strictly true, the poster can apply for a judicial review seeking an order that the Minister make a decision on the case... which may or may not be successful. the law is not clear cut. The problem is if you lose you will be ordered to pay the costs of the Minister, and this is what puts a lot of people off applying. :?


thank u for all ur reply. i appreciate it very much. so is it possible to say to my solicitor to go to court. do you think that 3 years wait as a spouse of irish with strong links and ties to the country is extraordinary in my case or shall i wait more. and lastly also will the court look into it favourably do u think.

beady eye
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Post by beady eye » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:45 pm

fatty patty wrote:Your solicitors cannot apply for a court case simply because there is a delay in your application, since citizenship is at minister's discretion and not a law the only way JR is accepted in courts is if there is a refusal. Only then the barristers can look at the grounds for refusal and go for JR. Unfortunately this is how citizenship is, a lottery system and cherry picking, there are people waiting more than 4 years on their cases although you can live in UK while your citizenship case is pending here imho.
this is exactly what my solicitor say. but he said uk is a no go area while i am waiting on citizenship.

beady eye
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Post by beady eye » Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:47 pm

walrusgumble wrote:
ImmigrationLawyer wrote:That's not strictly true, the poster can apply for a judicial review seeking an order that the Minister make a decision on the case... which may or may not be successful. the law is not clear cut. The problem is if you lose you will be ordered to pay the costs of the Minister, and this is what puts a lot of people off applying. :?
a declaration is all they will get,which is not worth the paper its written on. judges are reluctant to give mandamus orders as the current judges don't believe that it should dictate how state resources are spent.
can u please explain what is judgment is also mandamus order. so you think it is not good idea to go ahead with the court case. my solicitor wants to wait and say i have no case for court until it is refused.

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Post by ImmigrationLawyer » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:42 pm

walrusgumble wrote: in october 2009 judge cooke gave a decision for long term residency.hang on , will get the judgment on courts.ie.
I'm not aware of any relevent decision from judge Cooke. Judge Clarke stopped ppl bringing these cases with the Nawaz case ... but she's not doing asylum / immigration cases any more :wink:

beady eye: an order of mandamus is an order of the Court, given in the judgement, to make the Minister act, ie make a decision on the application. The question is: how badly do you want a quic decision and are you prepared to risk an order that you have to pay the Minister's court costs (these could be tens of thousands)? It is a gamble that not many are prepared to take. Your solicitor might be willing to give it a go if you were prepared to take on the risk.

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Post by walrusgumble » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:07 pm

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:
walrusgumble wrote: in october 2009 judge cooke gave a decision for long term residency.hang on , will get the judgment on courts.ie.
I'm not aware of any relevent decision from judge Cooke. Judge Clarke stopped ppl bringing these cases with the Nawaz case ... but she's not doing asylum / immigration cases any more :wink:

beady eye: an order of mandamus is an order of the Court, given in the judgement, to make the Minister act, ie make a decision on the application. The question is: how badly do you want a quic decision and are you prepared to risk an order that you have to pay the Minister's court costs (these could be tens of thousands)? It is a gamble that not many are prepared to take. Your solicitor might be willing to give it a go if you were prepared to take on the risk.
Ya accoridng to courts.ie she is stuck in the family law courts, so i . (My god have mercy on the appliants's soul) I have been trawling though courts.ie and balii or ages to find the actual transcript. To my surprise, no luck. I think I can get a hard copy somewhere i will scan it and put it up. the basic ruling, if my memory serves me correct was :

+ The court made the convenient Separation of powers arguement of not having jurisdiction to dictate how government should deal with resources. This would havw been championed by Supreme court Judge Hariman, if it went to appel. The courts accepted the poor mouth line of how broke it was and how it was unable to staff additional personnel.

+It also took the , Minister has absolute discretion and importance of citizenship and importance of full checks, delays of such not being the minister's fault.

+ The major one, the applicant must show that the delay is seriously adverse to their life eg -a delay in say a work permit could causw serious implication as they risk becoming illegal and loose their job. most citizens are often on stamp 4. However, big thing. the applicant, before bringing the matter to court, must in writing, put these problems to the Minister.

+ A major bone of contention was, why should other complaints be prejudice by the delay, and tolerate someone behind them in the que, be allowed to skip them simply because that applicant can afford to go to court.

+ As someone correctly pointed out. the Minister satisfied the judge that there was no bad intention on Their part ie they ansered all the letters (hmmm) and put notices on their websites (coUld not even get their predictions accurate.

+ to be blunt, Edwards previous cases, was like a fire cracker, ie soo many mandamus cases were filed in court. It was a clear policy decision

in light of judgments its a major gamble, well not really as cost wise it might not be so bad if refused exparte. I would be every careful, as some lawyers will take a "punt" without putting their client into serious finacial problems.the solicitors have little to loose

whilst hogan j might be more understandable, it is no excuse for him to ignore lawfull precedent - unless here is serious delay, regardless who wss the judge.

6 month rule refers to the similar obligtion the state owes to applicants to have ru treaty rights considered eithin 6 monthd. see the edward's case. (something that was convieniently distinguished)
Last edited by walrusgumble on Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:20 pm

beady eye wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:
ImmigrationLawyer wrote:That's not strictly true, the poster can apply for a judicial review seeking an order that the Minister make a decision on the case... which may or may not be successful. the law is not clear cut. The problem is if you lose you will be ordered to pay the costs of the Minister, and this is what puts a lot of people off applying. :?
a declaration is all they will get,which is not worth the paper its written on. judges are reluctant to give mandamus orders as the current judges don't believe that it should dictate how state resources are spent.
can u please explain what is judgment is also mandamus order. so you think it is not good idea to go ahead with the court case. my solicitor wants to wait and say i have no case for court until it is refused.
as per cooke, you will need to set out in writting, in advance to the Minister, that the delay that is prejudicial to you. eg if you were on work permit. You then prevent the state making excuse for them to say that they were not on notice and allow them to react.

fatty patty
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Post by fatty patty » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:44 am

Problem with the citizenship cases is that there has never been a precedent set in courts which is binding on the minister to give decisions in a reasonable amount of time. If they do come before courts they either get thrown out or suddenly the applicants start receiving correspondence from the citizenship department regarding their cases. So it is 50/50 if you like to consult with your solicitor regarding taking the case further but by the sounds of it he is not really pushed. BTW your solicitor is right about residing in Ireland as it is the island of Ireland and not Britain ... i use the term UK as a whole in my earlier post.
Rules
If you are the spouse of an Irish citizen who is applying for Irish citizenship you must meet the following conditions:

You must be married to the Irish citizen for at least 3 years
You must have had a period of 1 year's continuous "reckonable residence" in the island of Ireland immediately before the date of your application
You must have been living on the island of Ireland for at least 2 of the 4 years before that year of continuous residence
Your marriage must be recognised as valid under Irish law
You and your spouse must be living together as husband and wife
You must be of full age, good character and intend to continue to live on the island of Ireland
You must have made a declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... riage.html

ImmigrationLawyer
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Post by ImmigrationLawyer » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:56 am

walrusgumble wrote:
as per cooke, you will need to set out in writting, in advance to the Minister, that the delay that is prejudicial to you. eg if you were on work permit.
Can you please find this case for me, or the name or details ! ? Could you ask one of the state solicitors/ barristers.

No one is on a WP now for more than 5 years, the GNIB is giving them stamp 4 after 5 years, or so I understand.

Pesonally I think it's crazy that an applicant has to show prejudice ... becoming a citizen has an inherent value in itself.

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Post by MidnightHawk » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:19 pm

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:How long are you waiting overall?
its 32 months now since submission.
Last edited by MidnightHawk on Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MidnightHawk
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Post by MidnightHawk » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:56 pm

aswadref wrote:...i dont know if u read the comment they spent about €5000 for that...
I did! :) I was just wondering about the 6 month enforcement they also mentioned.
Last edited by MidnightHawk on Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

MidnightHawk
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Post by MidnightHawk » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:57 pm

walrusgumble wrote:... assuming op never delayed in responding to the department...
I have always responded promptly to any and all requests from the department and ensured that all documentation was sent via registered post.

ImmigrationLawyer
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Post by ImmigrationLawyer » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:09 pm

Personally if I was u I would wait. 32 months is still in the realms of "normal" for the Department, (unfortunately). It's not worth the risk of going to Court. I believe other people are waiting 4 years, they may be more suitable candidates for a mandamus application.

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Post by walrusgumble » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:43 pm

ImmigrationLawyer wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:
as per cooke, you will need to set out in writting, in advance to the Minister, that the delay that is prejudicial to you. eg if you were on work permit.
Can you please find this case for me, or the name or details ! ? Could you ask one of the state solicitors/ barristers.

No one is on a WP now for more than 5 years, the GNIB is giving them stamp 4 after 5 years, or so I understand.

Pesonally I think it's crazy that an applicant has to show prejudice ... becoming a citizen has an inherent value in itself.
Like I said, I think I can get a hold of the hard copy of the judgment. If or when I do, I will pm you a copy. I think, that judgment (n v MJELR - not nawaz) could be found in the actual law reports

It goes back to the point, why should someone be allowed to "jump the que" simply because they can afford to go to court. The Minister must be allowed to know why one's case should be skipped and treated with priorty


the work permit, once you have 5, you get an unlimited work permit. but its useless if you have to go to another job as you need to go through the whole rigmaore again. if i recall, cooke noted that the applicant's immigration was safe enough.

the state's attitude is to give citizenship that suits them and not to give it in order to be a convenience (ie safety to the immigrant) an immigrant is expected to continue to be legal, the state do not care how, its not their problem.

here is a link to these cases

http://staredecisishibernia.com/2011/05 ... mus-costs/

http://courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a ... enDocument

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