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Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Only for UK Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) points system. This route is now closed to new applicants.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:16 pm

Anontier20 wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:50 pm
Ok, so I am trying to calculate the net increase of jobs:
Company B -
in 2018- the company had 3 staff
in 2019- the company had 4 staff
in 2020- the company has the following:
Staff 1 Average : 26-30h
Staff 2 Average : 20-25h
Staff 3 Average : 18-20h
Staff 4 : Temp : 6-7h a week once or twice a month ( provides sick and holiday cover as and when as is officially a part-timer)

So if am seen to be "taking over/joining a business" what would be the net increase based on this information to date?
As I have said repeatedly, this is not specified so no one can answer that.
But calendar year has no significance.
What you need to look at is the 12 months before you join.
And staff numbers don't help either. It is number of jobs. In 2020, they could all be doing one job or it could be four jobs.
Your interpretation would be as good as mine.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:53 am

[*] Ok, thanks McNarth. Stressed out a bit so trying to see all my options.

So for arguments sake let's say the following:

All working on a shift system

Job 1- Sales Assistant
Staff 1 Average : 26-30h
Staff 4 : Temp : 6-7h a week once or twice a month ( provides sick and holiday cover as and when as is officially a part-timer)
Between the 2, total number hours per week- min 32/ max 37 hours - over the 30 hour requirement but not relevant

Job 2 -Social Media and Digital Marketing Assistant
Staff 2 Average : 20-25h
Staff 3 Average : 18-20h
Between the 2, total number hours per week- min 38/ max 45 hours- over the 30 hour requirement but not relevant

What is the net number of jobs that need to be exist in total to satisfy the guideline section: taken over or invested in an existing business or businesses and your
services or investment have resulted in a net increase in the employment
provided by the business or businesses for settled workers by creating the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers
The jobs must have existed for at least 12 months during your most recent
grant of leave/highlight]

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:14 am

Not sure why you are asking that.
If the jobs you specified exists in the 12 months before you joined, the straight forward answer is 4 jobs need to exist for 12 months after you join.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:19 am

Ok thanks.

Have you guys had any updates with regards to the Covid -19 plans? There's all these grants etc available, will they be available to us even though we are not otherwise allowed access to government benefits?

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:12 am

Anontier20 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:19 am
Ok thanks.

Have you guys had any updates with regards to the Covid -19 plans? There's all these grants etc available, will they be available to us even though we are not otherwise allowed access to government benefits?
Those support are extended to businesses rather than individuals, so should not have any impact on that
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:38 pm

You can have investment evidence from one company, jobs from another. You can have evidence for Job 1 from one company, Job 2 from another. There is no requirement that you should only use one company at a time.
You may even be able to combine 1 part time job from one company with another part time job in another company - I don't see anything in the rules that prevent that.
The one part you can't play around with is that you can't mix 7 months of a job in one company with 5 months of a job in another company - very difficult to justify it is the same job.


Hi McNarth,
You'd replied to the above, I am trying to see how to work my situation to the guidelines. So you can have 2 jobs from one company and another 2 from another company, would this show the net increase if working with a take over/ join business situation?

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:13 pm

Anontier20 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:38 pm
You can have investment evidence from one company, jobs from another. You can have evidence for Job 1 from one company, Job 2 from another. There is no requirement that you should only use one company at a time.
You may even be able to combine 1 part time job from one company with another part time job in another company - I don't see anything in the rules that prevent that.
The one part you can't play around with is that you can't mix 7 months of a job in one company with 5 months of a job in another company - very difficult to justify it is the same job.


Hi McNarth,
You'd replied to the above, I am trying to see how to work my situation to the guidelines. So you can have 2 jobs from one company and another 2 from another company, would this show the net increase if working with a take over/ join business situation?
I don't understand this - not sure what you are asking. If one of the companies is a new one and it has two jobs, what is the relevance of net increase?
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:45 pm

What I'm asking is that if I want to use my coffee shop for my settlement application in 2021, can I? I had created the shop in 2017 with 2 british nationals who are directors, but I'm currently not listed as a director ( that's easy to change),but am actually 100% financier therefore owner of it. However, this was never shown as per the papertrails submitted in either of the applications. So if I choose to use this company, if I wanted to use this it should be ok right? As it isn't a taking over or joining of a business situation.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:43 pm

Anontier20 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:45 pm
What I'm asking is that if I want to use my coffee shop for my settlement application in 2021, can I? I had created the shop in 2017 with 2 british nationals who are directors, but I'm currently not listed as a director ( that's easy to change),but am actually 100% financier therefore owner of it. However, this was never shown as per the papertrails submitted in either of the applications. So if I choose to use this company, if I wanted to use this it should be ok right? As it isn't a taking over or joining of a business situation.
I still don't understand what you mean by saying "use my coffee shop for my settlement application in 2021"

For your ILR application, you need to get 75 points and there is a table that sets out exactly how you can get those points.

So, which criteria do you need the "coffee shop" for ?
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:33 pm

For point 3 on page 33 You have:
(a) established a new business or businesses that has or have created the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers,
or
(b) taken over or invested in an existing business or businesses and your
services or investment have resulted in a net increase in the employment
provided by the business or businesses for settled workers by creating the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers
The jobs must have existed for at least 12 months during your most recent
grant of leave or, where that leave was granted less than 12 months ago, for at
least the 12 months immediately before the date of your current application.

I don't fit into either category for this, the business has always been there since 2017.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:00 pm

Anontier20 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:33 pm
For point 3 on page 33 You have:
(a) established a new business or businesses that has or have created the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers,
or
(b) taken over or invested in an existing business or businesses and your
services or investment have resulted in a net increase in the employment
provided by the business or businesses for settled workers by creating the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers
The jobs must have existed for at least 12 months during your most recent
grant of leave or, where that leave was granted less than 12 months ago, for at
least the 12 months immediately before the date of your current application.

I don't fit into either category for this, the business has always been there since 2017.
Since there is no clear definition of what "taken over or invested" means, you have depend on the evidence required to demonstrate this criteria.

You will find that in Page 25 of the guidance under the para that starts with
You must also provide the following specified documents to show you have established a new UK business, or joined and are engaged in business in the UK when you make your application:

So, the date from which you can provide the evidence is when you would be considered to have "taken over or invested in". And that date then determines whether it is a new or existing business.

You are not looking for english language definitions but definitions interpreted in the rules.

Again, for more qualified advice consult a lawyer.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:45 pm

Ok thanks, so along with the requirements from Table F, we will also again need to submit the documentation from pages 24-30 Bar the fact that we don't need to show investment evidence as I was awarded my current visa based on this papertrail.

And finally, if I show the net increase then it's alright it's in the 12 months prior to the next application as opposed to the 24 months before settlement?

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:27 pm

marcnath wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:44 pm
Whether the other Directors stay or resign has absolutely no implications under the immigration rules.
The Guidance defines what is considered "new" as :
"A business will only be considered a “new” business if you established it no earlier than 12 months (or 24 months if you were previously granted leave as a Tier 1 (Graduate Entrepreneur) migrant) before the date of the application which led to your first grant of leave as a Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) migrant."

You would be considered to have joined the business and hence have to show a "net increase" in jobs.

You are considered to have joined the business the day you become a Director.

There is no way around it other than to start a new business and create 2 jobs there.

Is the document list for submission the following:
UnAudited Accounts ==> Optional as you don't have to show investment evidence again
Corporation tax details
Employer codes==> Optional - Not sure what this is
Director details==> Optional
Job roles tables
Staff details ( Passport etc).
Payslips
FPS
XML files formats==> Optional
P45==> Optional
Bank statements? So we have to show 24 months of bank statements?
Original investment documents?==> Optional

You need to provide Job descriptions also
Bank statements? So we have to show 24 months of bank statements?

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:00 pm

On the back of this overthinking, I am wondering now as you explained the documentation can be from different companies as long as they satisfy the rules, from your experience on this platform having seen 100's of cases and questions, I wonder if you know of any individuals who did just this, For their first application and extension they submitted company A, but for the settlement they submitted company B? And was the Home office suspicious of company and evidence change or do they understand that quite simply businesses chop and change and sometimes its a case of business survival?

This question is open to everyone who is in a similar situation to me.

Thanks!

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:43 am

Anontier20 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:00 pm
On the back of this overthinking, I am wondering now as you explained the documentation can be from different companies as long as they satisfy the rules, from your experience on this platform having seen 100's of cases and questions, I wonder if you know of any individuals who did just this, For their first application and extension they submitted company A, but for the settlement they submitted company B? And was the Home office suspicious of company and evidence change or do they understand that quite simply businesses chop and change and sometimes its a case of business survival?

This question is open to everyone who is in a similar situation to me.

Thanks!
I have personally done that with no issues at all !!!

When you think there may be a problem, there is more likely to be one as it means you are not confident yourself about your genuineness.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:52 am

Anontier20 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:45 pm
Ok thanks, so along with the requirements from Table F, we will also again need to submit the documentation from pages 24-30 Bar the fact that we don't need to show investment evidence as I was awarded my current visa based on this papertrail.

And finally, if I show the net increase then it's alright it's in the 12 months prior to the next application as opposed to the 24 months before settlement?
Unfortunately, I have to keep repeating myself - there is NO guidance as to how net increase is defined/calculated.

They ask for evidence of 12 months prior to the DATE YOU JOINED the business, so it is a fair assumption that is the information they will use as they don't have access to employee numbers other than that. It does not stop them from asking more information but I can't see them making more work for themselves.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:52 pm

Hey,

It's not the lack of confidence or the genuineness of my applications, it's more the conflicting information I am getting from everywhere including my immigration lawyer who keeps insisting I use company A eventhough company B is the more profitable one etc, only because company A was where the original £50k went into and the papertrail up until now was submitted for company A. He doesn't want me to switch it up to company B for the settlement application, as company B according to home office records has never been seen before.

Do you think HO would look at an application and wonder why someone hired 2 job roles in the middle of a national lockdown when people are in fact closing shops/ letting staff go? Looking at this from every angle possible now, as furlough options don't exist for company A, as noone has been on payroll the past 6 months, I was waiting for my shop fit out to finish and then put staff back in and that was meant to be 15th April 2020.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:19 pm

Anontier20 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:52 pm
Hey,

It's not the lack of confidence or the genuineness of my applications, it's more the conflicting information I am getting from everywhere including my immigration lawyer who keeps insisting I use company A eventhough company B is the more profitable one etc, only because company A was where the original £50k went into and the papertrail up until now was submitted for company A. He doesn't want me to switch it up to company B for the settlement application, as company B according to home office records has never been seen before.

Do you think HO would look at an application and wonder why someone hired 2 job roles in the middle of a national lockdown when people are in fact closing shops/ letting staff go? Looking at this from every angle possible now, as furlough options don't exist for company A, as noone has been on payroll the past 6 months, I was waiting for my shop fit out to finish and then put staff back in and that was meant to be 15th April 2020.
Don't waste your time trying to guess what HO may or may not think. There is no one in this forum who can do that.

The best approach is to just run your business as any good business person would, keep your eye on the requirements and try to satisfy that.

Keep an eye out for announcements to see if HO will relax any requirements but don't hold your breath for that.

The requirement is only that you have 12 months of job creation within the 24 months of an extension period, so most people would still be able to meet the requirement unless this business downturn period extends for close to 12 months. There would be exceptions where people have not hired in the first part of the extension period but I suspect this will be a minority.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:27 pm

Ok, so going with your suggestion:
Company A to prove director position, bank statements and original investment
Company B for 2 jobs and payslips, RTI, FPS.

I am in the 12 month window as visa expires May 2021 so will just have to carry on business as usual and manage until things resume back to normal.
Sound ok now?

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:04 pm

Anontier20 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:27 pm
Ok, so going with your suggestion:
Company A to prove director position, bank statements and original investment
Company B for 2 jobs and payslips, RTI, FPS.

I am in the 12 month window as visa expires May 2021 so will just have to carry on business as usual and manage until things resume back to normal.
Sound ok now?
ok
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:52 pm

So mods, as requested by your colleague- I'm coping the question here:
Re: Re-engage an old employee & meeting job creation rules
Post by Anontier20 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:32 pm

Hi Mods,

On the back of the OP's question, what if you hire someone who was with you a while ago in 2018 but had to leave as she was in the family way and wasn't keeping well so decided to quit but now wants to come back, she was with me for 2 months and left, would this look odd now? Her child is at nursery now so she can work with less restrictions. Thoughts?

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:16 pm

marcnath wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:00 pm
Anontier20 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:33 pm
For point 3 on page 33 You have:
(a) established a new business or businesses that has or have created the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers,
or
(b) taken over or invested in an existing business or businesses and your
services or investment have resulted in a net increase in the employment
provided by the business or businesses for settled workers by creating the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers
The jobs must have existed for at least 12 months during your most recent
grant of leave or, where that leave was granted less than 12 months ago, for at
least the 12 months immediately before the date of your current application.

I don't fit into either category for this, the business has always been there since 2017.
Since there is no clear definition of what "taken over or invested" means, you have depend on the evidence required to demonstrate this criteria.

You will find that in Page 25 of the guidance under the para that starts with
You must also provide the following specified documents to show you have established a new UK business, or joined and are engaged in business in the UK when you make your application:

So, the date from which you can provide the evidence is when you would be considered to have "taken over or invested in". And that date then determines whether it is a new or existing business.

You are not looking for english language definitions but definitions interpreted in the rules.

Again, for more qualified advice consult a lawyer.
Hi Marcnath,
This is just a thought. out loud musings as it were- if an individual has spent the £50k on Tier 1 Entrp on one business, but then bought or set up an additional one with extra funds not relevant to the applications, then how does it actually matter for- Page 25 of the guidance under the para that starts with
You must also provide the following specified documents to show you have established a new UK business, or joined and are engaged in business in the UK when you make your application:
It's assumed isn't it that the £50k has been all spent and a business is surviving through it's revenue?
Is this the difference between Entp visa vs Investor visa?

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:32 pm

You are right that the quoted section relates to Business activity and not job creation.

So that gives you potential for challenging HO legally if you are willing to take the risk and bear the costs. It will then be up to the court to make the definitive interpretation whether that definition applies to job creation also (which would be the logical conclusion).

You seem to want to keep finding loopholes and I am not sure why. If you are going to depend on loopholes to have your application approved, you are starting from a disadvantage.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:05 pm

Hey,

Not looking for loopholes, just occurred to me as a bit of a counter productive guidelines, as in one part they don't need to see the investment documentation again, therein won't know if I've spent £50k, £75k or £200k as they don't ask for this, so one could join/ take over several businesses outside of the original investment, but then don't have to actually create a net increase in jobs so to speak because their initial company has shown it had the jobs in place. Anyway what will be will be. I am going to go with what you suggested, Company A to show the £50k investment and Company B for my jobs.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:51 am

Anontier20 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:05 pm
Hey,

Not looking for loopholes, just occurred to me as a bit of a counter productive guidelines, as in one part they don't need to see the investment documentation again, therein won't know if I've spent £50k, £75k or £200k as they don't ask for this, so one could join/ take over several businesses outside of the original investment, but then don't have to actually create a net increase in jobs so to speak because their initial company has shown it had the jobs in place. Anyway what will be will be. I am going to go with what you suggested, Company A to show the £50k investment and Company B for my jobs.
Not sure if there is something counter productive. Not fully defined in some places, yes.

You are only required to provide evidence that meets the minimum requirements set out.

So, once the extension has been granted (investment shown), any additional investment, business, etc. is up to you. HO does not need to know about it and there is no need to provide those documentation.

Similarly, if you have the same jobs continuing in the first company, whatever jobs you create elsewhere does not matter. Again, there is no need to report those to HO or provide any documentation for that.

Based on your queries, I have assumed you did not have 2 jobs in the original company and needed to use job(s) from the 2nd company. And where the 2nd company is one you have joined, you need to show NET increase in jobs.

But this post seems to indicate that " ..initial company has shown it had the jobs in place.." If that is the case, the whole discussion on your second company was irrelevant.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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