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Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Only for UK Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) points system

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Anontier20
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Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:21 pm

Hello all,

I am completing the 1st year of the second stage of my extension Tier 1 (Ent) visa, I should be applying for the 5 year settlement next summer if all goes well and no major changes in the HO rules.

My questions are:

1) The business which I had been running isn't doing very well and want to expand my business options so am looking to purchase an turnkey business and merge the two together. This is an additional investment to the original £50k put in to the Business A when I applied for Tier 1 in 2016. What are the views on this as I know that the money paid to an owner is not an option for Tier 1 route? However as this is in the extension stage and additional money paid then are there any problems or issues?

2)This does mean that whilst setting up the second business, I've been quite quiet working on the businesses so HO may not see a high volume of sales/ revenue for the first 10 months in the 1st year of the extension but it will significantly jump up before month 12. Is this going to cause a lot of questions?

3) Is there a limit to the number of businesses a Tier 1 Entr. visa holder can own/run under one ltd company?

Thank you for your help.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:03 pm

Anontier20 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:21 pm
Hello all,

I am completing the 1st year of the second stage of my extension Tier 1 (Ent) visa, I should be applying for the 5 year settlement next summer if all goes well and no major changes in the HO rules.

My questions are:

1) The business which I had been running isn't doing very well and want to expand my business options so am looking to purchase an turnkey business and merge the two together. This is an additional investment to the original £50k put in to the Business A when I applied for Tier 1 in 2016. What are the views on this as I know that the money paid to an owner is not an option for Tier 1 route? However as this is in the extension stage and additional money paid then are there any problems or issues?

2)This does mean that whilst setting up the second business, I've been quite quiet working on the businesses so HO may not see a high volume of sales/ revenue for the first 10 months in the 1st year of the extension but it will significantly jump up before month 12. Is this going to cause a lot of questions?

3) Is there a limit to the number of businesses a Tier 1 Entr. visa holder can own/run under one ltd company?

Thank you for your help.
1) No, there is no impact
2) Difficult to say what HO will ask
3) No
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:28 pm

Thanks Mcnarth for being helpful.

So with regards to point 3, if a business is allowed multiple businesses under one ltd, company, are they allowed multiple ltd companies?
My issue is with regards to payslips, I have had staff but they've working under one of my other companies ( as the nature of trade is very different), not the one that I have applied for on the visa. Therefore the accounting is different and payslips etc are different. Also from the accounting ledgers, it won't add up as the numbers will be different due to the salaries coming out of another account. This will just complicate matters right? What do you propose/ suggest?

With regards to paper work we need to provide for proof of staff for the 5th year of visa application is it the following:
Minimum 30 hours per week proof ( number of hours x £ wage rate)
P45/P46/ P32?
HMRC NI payment slips
Pensions proof of payment/ sign up
Payslips from first salary which will show how many hours
Full annual accounts?

Anything else anyone else knows of at this stage or in a similar situation to me? Or anyone who was at the 2 year extension stage but only had employees shown in the 12 months before application, what was your experience like?

Thank you!

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:04 pm

You can have as many ltd companies you want.
Not sure what is complicated.
You only need payslips and FPS.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:52 am

That the payslips need to reflect the company name of the ltd company of which I am director of so far on all the visa applications ( 1st and extension one) and that the accounts need to show the same information?

That's the confusion.

Can I use company A details even though company B is the one that has been shown to the HO so far?

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:11 pm

Anontier20 wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:52 am
That the payslips need to reflect the company name of the ltd company of which I am director of so far on all the visa applications ( 1st and extension one) and that the accounts need to show the same information?

That's the confusion.

Can I use company A details even though company B is the one that has been shown to the HO so far?
There is no requirement for all companies to be the same. You can have different evidence from different companies, as long as you are a Director of the business
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:32 pm

Thanks.

So as long as I am director 3 months before the next application is due, this is fine too?

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:16 am

Anontier20 wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:32 pm
Thanks.

So as long as I am director 3 months before the next application is due, this is fine too?
I am not sure where you get the 3 months is coming from. You just need to be a Director at the time of application
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:58 pm

From the guidelines page 32:
You have been:
(a) registered with HM Revenue & Customs as self-employed, or
(b) registered with Companies House as a director of a UK company or
member of a UK limited liability partnership.
The requirements above must have been met:
(i) within 6 months of entering the UK (if granted entry clearance and there is
evidence to establish your date of entry) or, in any case within six months from
the date your last leave was granted, and
(ii) within the three months before the date of application

Also on the back of this is the ongoing concern about staff now with the Covid-19-
If the city/ country goes on lockdown for the foreseeable future, as my business is in hospitality, with no sales coming as the customers have all disappeared, from and accounting and business point of view, it doesn't justify the staff wages if they aren't coming in to work, especially if the coffee shop is closed. How will this impact the 30 hour rule, the payslips etx? Or HO doesn't care and expects the businesses to keep paying as in essence we want to be here in the country so don't have the same rights and privileges as British businesses?

It is said that many of the larger companies are being closed down for 12 weeks or so, which is 3 months of no business. I don't know how many small hospitality and events sized businesses will come out on the other side.

Any input or thoughts and suggestions are welcome, albeit even if no one has an actual clue as this situation new to everyone concerned.

TIA!

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:35 pm

Anontier20 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:58 pm
From the guidelines page 32:
You have been:
(a) registered with HM Revenue & Customs as self-employed, or
(b) registered with Companies House as a director of a UK company or
member of a UK limited liability partnership.
The requirements above must have been met:
(i) within 6 months of entering the UK (if granted entry clearance and there is
evidence to establish your date of entry) or, in any case within six months from
the date your last leave was granted, and
(ii) within the three months before the date of application
It says "within" !! The day of application is still within 3 months.
Anontier20 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:58 pm

Also on the back of this is the ongoing concern about staff now with the Covid-19-
If the city/ country goes on lockdown for the foreseeable future, as my business is in hospitality, with no sales coming as the customers have all disappeared, from and accounting and business point of view, it doesn't justify the staff wages if they aren't coming in to work, especially if the coffee shop is closed. How will this impact the 30 hour rule, the payslips etx? Or HO doesn't care and expects the businesses to keep paying as in essence we want to be here in the country so don't have the same rights and privileges as British businesses?

It is said that many of the larger companies are being closed down for 12 weeks or so, which is 3 months of no business. I don't know how many small hospitality and events sized businesses will come out on the other side.

Any input or thoughts and suggestions are welcome, albeit even if no one has an actual clue as this situation new to everyone concerned.

TIA!
That is a tough one and a bit too early to comment on. We still do not know how long this will last. For example, if it lasts only three months, you still have plenty of time to meet the requirements. If it lasts a year, then it is a different matter and I hope HO will consider some waiver.

The government is giving £3000 pounds to your sector - hopefully you are using some of that to support your staff who will not have other sources of livelihood.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:20 pm

Thanks Mcnarth.

I think I have misunderstood this (ii) within the three months before the date of application
It says "within" !! The day of application is still within 3 months.

Perhaps may make more sense if I illustrate my situation:
I got my Tier 1 Entp. visa extension in May 2019, so will be applying for settlement End of April / May 2021( subject to when I get staff back on payroll this year) but as explained before I had used company A for the initial application followed by the extension.
However, I want to merge that business into a coffee shop ( business B-) I own in partnership with other individuals, (BUT my name isn't on as a director currently as I was minor shareholder - and this was never on the record for the visa scheme I am on) but the two directors now want to leave and want me to take over 100%. If I have my name appear as the sole director as of March 2020 will this be an issue? Does it cover me for the 20 points on page 32- Row 2 (ii) within the three months before the date of application.


We have staff for this business but again this was not the business I submitted when I had applied for the extension for, the £50k initially invested was not used for this business, that is my Company A.Ironically Business B has performed better than Company A, so I am wondering as it has consistent staff on payroll etc if it makes sense to use this one if I can. Does this make some sort of sense, as there is an overlap in place because the guidelines say :
You do not need to provide evidence of (i) if you were awarded points for this in your last successful Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) application. You must still provide evidence of (ii). Still ok if two completely different ltd companies?

Thank you as always!

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:50 pm

Ah, forgot to mention on the £3,000 for businesses, I thought that was only for the UK and British nationals only. Is there a link or info for us to look into? Many thanks!

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:22 pm

Anontier20 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:20 pm
Thanks Mcnarth.

I think I have misunderstood this (ii) within the three months before the date of application
It says "within" !! The day of application is still within 3 months.

Perhaps may make more sense if I illustrate my situation:
I got my Tier 1 Entp. visa extension in May 2019, so will be applying for settlement End of April / May 2021( subject to when I get staff back on payroll this year) but as explained before I had used company A for the initial application followed by the extension.
However, I want to merge that business into a coffee shop ( business B-) I own in partnership with other individuals, (BUT my name isn't on as a director currently as I was minor shareholder - and this was never on the record for the visa scheme I am on) but the two directors now want to leave and want me to take over 100%. If I have my name appear as the sole director as of March 2020 will this be an issue? Does it cover me for the 20 points on page 32- Row 2 (ii) within the three months before the date of application.
To repeat, the requirement is only that you should be a Director at the time of renewal. And the evidence you provide for that should not be more than three months old.

So unless you quit as a Director before end of Jan/Feb 2021, I can't see an issue. When you started is immaterial.
Anontier20 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:20 pm


We have staff for this business but again this was not the business I submitted when I had applied for the extension for, the £50k initially invested was not used for this business, that is my Company A.Ironically Business B has performed better than Company A, so I am wondering as it has consistent staff on payroll etc if it makes sense to use this one if I can. Does this make some sort of sense, as there is an overlap in place because the guidelines say :
You do not need to provide evidence of (i) if you were awarded points for this in your last successful Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) application. You must still provide evidence of (ii). Still ok if two completely different ltd companies?

Thank you as always!
Yes, it is ok to be different companies.
Anontier20 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:50 pm
Ah, forgot to mention on the £3,000 for businesses, I thought that was only for the UK and British nationals only. Is there a link or info for us to look into? Many thanks!
No, this is for businesses. No details are available yet. It is expected to be managed by local councils - please monitor the news for details.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:56 pm

Thanks Mcnarth, I know you feel as if you are repeating the answers to my questions. A few more comments on your answers so I know what to do. I am very confused and now with all this coronavirus business seeing what is the best option to move forward whilst working within the parameters of the rules and points.

Company B was set up by friends, where I invested money into ( separate to the Company A, as amount was less than £50k), I do not show as the director on it at the moment as I didn't know that could be an option, I always interpreted the rules as one could only be a director on the company they had submitted the initial application on.

Anyway, Company B has the owners on it as the directors( they are British), can they stay on, so it's 3 directors, is that ok? Or they resign and I take over 100% as director? Therefore, it will show as March 2020, as opposed to my other company where I've been director since 2014.
Would this be an issue? Or will they view it as me taking over a business and in turn causing confusion for the following section, as how does one define new? New from the time a visa was issue? Or new in the interim over the years on the visa? Or is then point b? Would I then have to have 4/5 members of staff on payroll to satisfy the 'net' aspect of the visa rules? Although it's not net as it is my business, just one where I wasn't registered as a director.
You have:
(a) established a new business or businesses that has or have created the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers,
or
(b) taken over or invested in an existing business or businesses and your
services or investment have resulted in a net increase in the employment
provided by the business or businesses for settled workers by creating the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers
The jobs must have existed for at least 12 months during your most recent
grant of leave or, where that leave was granted less than 12 months ago, for at
least the 12 months immediately before the date of your current application.


What would be the best way around this?

Is the document list for submission the following:
UnAudited Accounts
Corporation tax details
Employer codes
Director details
Job roles tables
Staff details ( Passport etc).
Payslips
FPS
XML files formats
P45
Bank statements?
Original investment documents?
Any other crucial evidence documents?

Thank you!

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:44 pm

Whether the other Directors stay or resign has absolutely no implications under the immigration rules.
The Guidance defines what is considered "new" as :
"A business will only be considered a “new” business if you established it no earlier than 12 months (or 24 months if you were previously granted leave as a Tier 1 (Graduate Entrepreneur) migrant) before the date of the application which led to your first grant of leave as a Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) migrant."

You would be considered to have joined the business and hence have to show a "net increase" in jobs.

You are considered to have joined the business the day you become a Director.

There is no way around it other than to start a new business and create 2 jobs there.

Is the document list for submission the following:
UnAudited Accounts ==> Optional as you don't have to show investment evidence again
Corporation tax details
Employer codes==> Optional - Not sure what this is
Director details==> Optional
Job roles tables
Staff details ( Passport etc).
Payslips
FPS
XML files formats==> Optional
P45==> Optional
Bank statements?
Original investment documents?==> Optional

You need to provide Job descriptions also
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:18 pm

And what if the staff were the owner operators ( the current directors) and they leave? What would the net increase be on that, 2 or 4 staff?

The jobs are already there, so are you suggesting I close down Company B which I am not currently director of( though I've invested in it), create a new company ( Company C), and the payslips which were issued from Company B (these roles be part of the 2019-2020 job roles), in addition to the new company named payslips ( and relevant docs) for 2020-2021 would be from Company C? And the cross and overlap between these two is possible, satisfying new business and staff points?

Or are you saying actually in essence, Company A and Company B can't be used effectively for the paper trail as previously suggested in your message on 10th March 2020- There is no requirement for all companies to be the same. You can have different evidence from different companies, as long as you are a Director of the business

Because payslips, p32's etc all show a company name hence I wasn't sure how different evidence from different companies can work.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:15 am

Anontier20 wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:18 pm
And what if the staff were the owner operators ( the current directors) and they leave? What would the net increase be on that, 2 or 4 staff?
It is an increase of JOBS, not people. So, you need to create additional jobs and hire staff into them. It is assumed existing Jobs will continue to be staffed, though that is not explicitly stated.
Anontier20 wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:18 pm

The jobs are already there, so are you suggesting I close down Company B which I am not currently director of( though I've invested in it), create a new company ( Company C), and the payslips which were issued from Company B (these roles be part of the 2019-2020 job roles), in addition to the new company named payslips ( and relevant docs) for 2020-2021 would be from Company C? And the cross and overlap between these two is possible, satisfying new business and staff points?
I am not suggesting anything, just stating facts. I do not know enough of your business.
If you start a new company C and create the two required new jobs in that company, then the evidence from Company B is not relevant at all.
Anontier20 wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:18 pm

Or are you saying actually in essence, Company A and Company B can't be used effectively for the paper trail as previously suggested in your message on 10th March 2020- There is no requirement for all companies to be the same. You can have different evidence from different companies, as long as you are a Director of the business

Because payslips, p32's etc all show a company name hence I wasn't sure how different evidence from different companies can work.
No, I am not saying that.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:16 pm

Alright, apologies, used the wrong word- net jobs, where would the owner operator (directors) be then? 2 jobs as directors, so I have to then create 2 director roles, 1 sales role and 1 xyz?

If it has to be listed as
(b) taken over or invested in an existing business or businesses and your
services or investment have resulted in a net increase in the employment
provided by the business or businesses for settled workers by creating the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers
The jobs must have existed for at least 12 months during your most recent
grant of leave or, where that leave was granted less than 12 months ago, for at
least the 12 months immediately before the date of your current application.

Let's say business B has 3 part time roles, what is the net increase for this?
I appreciate you don't know enough, I was trying to explain it as much as I could. Currently the visa was issued with proof submitted from Business A -created in 2014( with all the documents required from guidelines). Business B created in 2017, but I was not listed as director though I've had an investment in it. What I'm asking is can I add my name as director today, and use business B for the next stage for settlement? I've had staff on the payroll for this as it's the more profitable business. Business A currently doesn't have staff and I'm working on creating more sales avenues to justify salaries. Is this clearer? I don't think Company C is required because as worst case I absorb Company B into A and close B down as well, and just have the brand under company A, but that's at my discretion. But that's a worst case and I didn't want to mix the two for accounting purposes, but if needs must and seems sensible, I'll do it.

My question was more in regards to the use of Company B staff/ jobs so to cover in the interim if I lose a few months due to the coronovirus as I've had to temporarily send staff home, due to the lockdown the salaries aren't justified, without customers we can't pay, And yes govt loans etc have been said but let's face it, we don't know how long that will take and to whom they'll actually help out etc, as no one seems to know what's going on, even whilst I type this out to you, and suspect the HO probably won't care at the moment.

What did you mean by this then? There is no requirement for all companies to be the same. You can have different evidence from different companies, as long as you are a Director of the business

Very confused now.

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by Anontier20 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:46 pm

And one more question with regards to the net jobs matter if

b) taken over or invested in an existing business or businesses and your
services or investment have resulted in a net increase in the employment
provided by the business or businesses for settled workers by creating the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers

Is the net increase from the time you take over/join an existing business or 12 months prior to visa application?

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Re: Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

Post by marcnath » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:47 pm

Anontier20 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:16 pm
Alright, apologies, used the wrong word- net jobs, where would the owner operator (directors) be then? 2 jobs as directors, so I have to then create 2 director roles, 1 sales role and 1 xyz?
You do not need to create the exact same jobs - just the number of jobs. So if you don't have 2 director jobs, it can just be any other two jobs - admin, marketing, whatever..
Anontier20 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:16 pm

If it has to be listed as
(b) taken over or invested in an existing business or businesses and your
services or investment have resulted in a net increase in the employment
provided by the business or businesses for settled workers by creating the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers
The jobs must have existed for at least 12 months during your most recent
grant of leave or, where that leave was granted less than 12 months ago, for at
least the 12 months immediately before the date of your current application.

Let's say business B has 3 part time roles, what is the net increase for this?
If the 3 part time roles together made up one FT equivalent, then 3 FT jobs will be needed.

Remember that is something that has not been clearly defined in the rules/guidelines. Whenever that is the case, you have the option of interpreting it a little. Use common sense and make sure you can confidently argue that.
Anontier20 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:16 pm
I appreciate you don't know enough, I was trying to explain it as much as I could. Currently the visa was issued with proof submitted from Business A -created in 2014( with all the documents required from guidelines). Business B created in 2017, but I was not listed as director though I've had an investment in it. What I'm asking is can I add my name as director today, and use business B for the next stage for settlement?
I think I have answered this many times. The answer is YES !!!
Anontier20 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:16 pm

I've had staff on the payroll for this as it's the more profitable business. Business A currently doesn't have staff and I'm working on creating more sales avenues to justify salaries. Is this clearer? I don't think Company C is required because as worst case I absorb Company B into A and close B down as well, and just have the brand under company A, but that's at my discretion. But that's a worst case and I didn't want to mix the two for accounting purposes, but if needs must and seems sensible, I'll do it.
Yes, that could work. Focus on the evidence you need to submit. If you can provide evidence to show how you fulfil the requirements, you should be ok.
Anontier20 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:16 pm

My question was more in regards to the use of Company B staff/ jobs so to cover in the interim if I lose a few months due to the coronovirus as I've had to temporarily send staff home, due to the lockdown the salaries aren't justified, without customers we can't pay, And yes govt loans etc have been said but let's face it, we don't know how long that will take and to whom they'll actually help out etc, as no one seems to know what's going on, even whilst I type this out to you, and suspect the HO probably won't care at the moment.

What did you mean by this then? There is no requirement for all companies to be the same. You can have different evidence from different companies, as long as you are a Director of the business

Very confused now.
You can have investment evidence from one company, jobs from another. You can have evidence for Job 1 from one company, Job 2 from another. There is no requirement that you should only use one company at a time.
You may even be able to combine 1 part time job from one company with another part time job in another company - I don't see anything in the rules that prevent that.
The one part you can't play around with is that you can't mix 7 months of a job in one company with 5 months of a job in another company - very difficult to justify it is the same job.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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