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FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Only for UK Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) points system

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cappachino
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FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by cappachino » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:16 am

For those using Sage for their payroll.
My question is:
FPS via sage does not show the payments made to the worker and only shows tax, Ni and start date of each employee.
As per new guidance HO wants to see the payments made to the worker via FPS (as per my understanding) what is the solution to this especially for those who have used SAGE. (In my case I have already sent the documents and waiting for the out come).

Ams2013
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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by Ams2013 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:37 pm

Your FPS should be fine as the most important information was Start date and Tax payments and as you applied before 24 Nov i. e change of rule.

cappachino
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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by cappachino » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:48 pm

Ams2013 wrote:Your FPS should be fine as the most important information was Start date and Tax payments and as you applied before 24 Nov i. e change of rule.
Yes you do have a point but this is not a rule change but a clarification.
Hence the new clarification applies for all.
do you know of anyone who has applied using SAGE and got a positive outcome?
I do know of awan905 who used SAGE, his visa was rejected but in his rejection nowhere was it mentioned that he failed to show the employees payments via FPS.

awan905
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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by awan905 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:14 pm

cappachino wrote:
Ams2013 wrote:Your FPS should be fine as the most important information was Start date and Tax payments and as you applied before 24 Nov i. e change of rule.
Yes you do have a point but this is not a rule change but a clarification.
Hence the new clarification applies for all.
do you know of anyone who has applied using SAGE and got a positive outcome?
I do know of awan905 who used SAGE, his visa was rejected but in his rejection nowhere was it mentioned that he failed to show the employees payments via FPS.
In my first application I only submitted the SAGE submission logs not the complete FPS. That's why it got rejected, however now in fresh application I submitted the complete FPS from the date my accountant started submitting the FPS till the date of fresh application. If you check I did upload a similar format in SAGE which was also accepted by HO (submitted by another member). I am uploading that sample again and in SAGE you get this format.
I am yet to get an outcome of fresh application.
Attachments
sample FPS.jpg
sample FPS.jpg (35.31 KiB) Viewed 1408 times

cappachino
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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by cappachino » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:44 pm

awan905 wrote:
cappachino wrote:
Ams2013 wrote:Your FPS should be fine as the most important information was Start date and Tax payments and as you applied before 24 Nov i. e change of rule.
Yes you do have a point but this is not a rule change but a clarification.
Hence the new clarification applies for all.
do you know of anyone who has applied using SAGE and got a positive outcome?
I do know of awan905 who used SAGE, his visa was rejected but in his rejection nowhere was it mentioned that he failed to show the employees payments via FPS.
In my first application I only submitted the SAGE submission logs not the complete FPS. That's why it got rejected, however now in fresh application I submitted the complete FPS from the date my accountant started submitting the FPS till the date of fresh application. If you check I did upload a similar format in SAGE which was also accepted by HO (submitted by another member). I am uploading that sample again and in SAGE you get this format.
I am yet to get an outcome of fresh application.
Awan905 when was this

muhammadaliabad
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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by muhammadaliabad » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:45 pm

I will be submitting my extension application in next two months on sage FPS where there is no column for payments made to settled worker. I have asked my accountant and he also said that there is no other report format on Sage which awan has already attached above.

My question to senior members and zimba is what should i do in that case? Should i redo my all FPS on moneysoft software? Or should i submit Sage FPS by assuming that we had few approvals in the past??

Your response will be appreciated.

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by muhammadaliabad » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:29 pm

Senior members....could you please answer my above query.

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by jafersadeq » Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:14 pm

muhammadaliabad wrote:I will be submitting my extension application in next two months on sage FPS where there is no column for payments made to settled worker. I have asked my accountant and he also said that there is no other report format on Sage which awan has already attached above.

My question to senior members and zimba is what should i do in that case? Should i redo my all FPS on moneysoft software? Or should i submit Sage FPS by assuming that we had few approvals in the past??

Your response will be appreciated.
Yes you can, do not use FPS without total payment, you have time and you can use at least one of 10 payrolls produce the required one.

awan905
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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by awan905 » Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:46 pm

HO office has put quite strange request here. Most of the large firms use Sage but in Sage you cannt show total payment in FPS format. Atleast home office clearly puts a format and mention the software name so that every one uses that from start and this kind of problem should be happening.

I think to be on safe side, you can download the moneysoft and get FPS from it. You can ask the accountant to generate the FPS via sage for your use. Because when you will generate the FPS in money soft then you will see some difference in tax/NI amount which can go up or down, however you can adjust these figures and can make them exactly the same which your accountant has submitted via sage.
If there would be any issue in money soft let me know and I will help you to adjust the figures.

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by jafersadeq » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:37 pm

awan905 wrote:HO office has put quite strange request here. Most of the large firms use Sage but in Sage you cannt show total payment in FPS format. Atleast home office clearly puts a format and mention the software name so that every one uses that from start and this kind of problem should be happening.

I think to be on safe side, you can download the moneysoft and get FPS from it. You can ask the accountant to generate the FPS via sage for your use. Because when you will generate the FPS in money soft then you will see some difference in tax/NI amount which can go up or down, however you can adjust these figures and can make them exactly the same which your accountant has submitted via sage.
If there would be any issue in money soft let me know and I will help you to adjust the figures.
Download Moneysoft and backup all details in Sage, there is a link in Moneysoft enable you to get all data from the old software. No changes in data if you backup.

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by Zimba » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:38 pm

Produce the same FPS report in Moneysoft. HO requirements for FPS needs to be met for a successful extension
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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by Yasm33n » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:14 pm

zimba88 wrote:Produce the same FPS report in Moneysoft. HO requirements for FPS needs to be met for a successful extension
Hi zimba88
Hope you are doing great. I have a question as you mentioned that as per new guaidence Fps should have payments made to settled worker as well after 24 of November 2016 . Do you think I need to inform my accountant as when I will apply for my indefinite after 2 years if it's not in the formate home office want then it can be a trouble for me .

muhammadaliabad
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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by muhammadaliabad » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:19 pm

Thanks Awan905, zimba88, jafersadeq on your comments.

I can re-generate FPS on moneysoft software and ask my accountant to continue reporting via sage. But if I will do manual FPS on moneysoft software for home office purpose, then there will no submission receipts. As we all know that every FPS submission to HMRC generates a unique reference number.

Don't you guys think it will come under home office scrutiny radar?? Because I have submitted whole three year payroll in sage software. I am feeling nervous to now re-generate FPS on moneysoft because I can be caught in changing evidence. (Note: I am not changing numbers....I will be just changing format of FPS)

Awan905, Zimba88 & juafersadeq....I would need your final opinion on my above concern.

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by Zimba » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:46 pm

1) The new guidance has NOT changed the way FPS needs to be prepared or the information it has to show, NOTHING has changed. However new guide has made it clear now that FPS is a requirement for ALL. For the proof, here is the old immigration rules from the ARCHIVE:
Payment Records, Real Time-Full Payment Submissions (either a series of individual monthly submissions including the first submission or summaries),.... which either together or individually show the total payments made to the settled workers, as well as the tax deducted and date which they started work with the applicant’s business;

So please DO NOT CLAIM that the requirements on the FPS have changed !!


2) You do NOT need to submit FPS submission logs or whatever. Just FPS reports made by the Software in the required FORMAT. If your software cannot produce it, you can create it as required with the exact numbers sent to HMRC with the correct FORMAT. This does NOT mean you created something fraudulently as your FPS submissions and all the information on your reports are ALL genuine.
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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by jafersadeq » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:11 pm

muhammadaliabad wrote:Thanks Awan905, zimba88, jafersadeq on your comments.

I can re-generate FPS on moneysoft software and ask my accountant to continue reporting via sage. But if I will do manual FPS on moneysoft software for home office purpose, then there will no submission receipts. As we all know that every FPS submission to HMRC generates a unique reference number.

Don't you guys think it will come under home office scrutiny radar?? Because I have submitted whole three year payroll in sage software. I am feeling nervous to now re-generate FPS on moneysoft because I can be caught in changing evidence. (Note: I am not changing numbers....I will be just changing format of FPS)

Awan905, Zimba88 & juafersadeq....I would need your final opinion on my above concern.
Open your PAYE-HMRC record and see the data you sent to HMRC, it is same on your old FPS, and it will be same data on the new FPS.
Zimba stated that more in his comment, trust and go ahead.

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by cappachino » Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:32 am

zimba88 wrote:1) The new guidance has NOT changed the way FPS needs to be prepared or the information it has to show, NOTHING has changed. However new guide has made it clear now that FPS is a requirement for ALL. For the proof, here is the old immigration rules from the ARCHIVE:
Payment Records, Real Time-Full Payment Submissions (either a series of individual monthly submissions including the first submission or summaries),.... which either together or individually show the total payments made to the settled workers, as well as the tax deducted and date which they started work with the applicant’s business;

So please DO NOT CLAIM that the requirements on the FPS have changed !!


2) You do NOT need to submit FPS submission logs or whatever. Just FPS reports made by the Software in the required FORMAT. If your software cannot produce it, you can create it as required with the exact numbers sent to HMRC with the correct FORMAT. This does NOT mean you created something fraudulently as your FPS submissions and all the information on your reports are ALL genuine.
What about those who sent the sage fps before the new guidance. Although the employee payments are not shown in the sage fps submitted these payments are reflected in the salary slips and employee payment record submitted.
What is your opinion on this?
Should we prepare ourself for a rejection based on employee payments not shown in the fps?

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by Dangerous Dragon » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:57 am

Guys,

As per the new guidance- Page 55-56 points 183-185 clearly states that the FPS submissions must show full payment submissions for the employees we are claiming points for .

i) Evidence to show you are reporting Pay As You Earn (PAYE) income tax

183. You must provide evidence that you are reporting Pay As You Earn (PAYE ) income tax
appropriately to HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC), and have done so for the full period of employment for which points are being claimed, as follows:

1) For reporting up to and including 5 October 2013 only:

a) Printouts of Employee Payment Records and, unless the start date of the employment is shown in the Employee Payment Record, an original HMRC form P45 or form P46 (also called a Full Payment Submission) for the settled worker showing the start date of the employment, or

b) Printouts of Real Time Full Payment Submissions which confirm the report of PAYE income tax to HMRC (if you began reporting via Real Time before 6 October 2013); and

2) For reporting from 6 October 2013 onwards printouts of Real Time-Full Payment

184. This evidence in 1) or 2) above must show the total payments made to the settled workers as
well as the tax deducted and date which they started work with the applicant’s business.

185. From 6 October 2013, all businesses were required to report PAYE via Real Time.

UKVI should at least done some research before asking candidates for these kind of adjustments, not all the accountants use Money Soft and not all payroll applications generate FPS as moneysoft.

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by awan905 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:05 pm

It is quite clear that the HMRC is not giving any info to HO and due to this they are now making things harder for us.
The issue is now when you have already submitted FPS via SAGE then how can you submit same info in different software next time. Let say if someone has submitted these documents in SAGE in first application and got rejected based on any other issue and now if he has to submit fresh application, what will he do?

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by Ams2013 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:11 pm

[quote="awan905"]It is quite clear that the HMRC is not giving any info to HO and due to this they are now making things harder for us.


The issue is now when you have already submitted FPS via SAGE then how can you submit same info in different software next time.
Change the format which is acceptable , you are not changing any figure ,so don't over think causing undue stress !

Let say if someone has submitted these documents in SAGE in first application and got rejected based on any other issue and now if he has to submit fresh application, what will he do?

Redo the FPS in the acceptable format in fresh application ,as you are not changing any figure already submitted to HMRC and just changing report design acceptable as per new clarification.

For those already submitted Sage FPS hope they wont affected but should also prepare strong AR arguments just in case ! and dont put your self in difficult situation by saying in AR that you cant produce any other format except submitted as this will create issues if you will have to reapply ! just focus on same argument as of Raj !

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by cappachino » Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:59 pm

I have not seen a rejection where it says that the pay is not shown on the FPS.
Yes rejections have happened due to starting date not appearing on the FPS and in the rejection reason nowhere was it mentioned that the pay is not shown.
Also if the rejection (at lease in my case who has applied before the new guidance) would opt for AR and then JR rather than reapplying as it would be easier to argue my case in JR due to the fact that SAGE FPS is a recognized software and is used by most multinational including British Petroleum etc
HO seems to be disconnected with the business world while making these rules (rules like companies house register and employees pay in FPS)
Don't think HO would have a leg to stand on if taken to court.
Would like to know what seniors especially Zimba has to say, in the case where one has already applied before the new guidance using SAGE.

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by Zimba » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:33 pm

I agree the requirement for the FORMAT of the FPS is quite ridiculous. The new rule also demand Register Of Members to be obtained from companies house (if you invested via shares). Funny enough, a company's register of members is a document created by the company owners themselves as explicitly described in Companies Act 2006 and companies house does NOT even issue the shareholders details to you :lol:
I suggest to stick with Moneysoft format and avoid headaches with HO :!: Not having appeal rights has made this extremely difficult to be honest
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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by cappachino » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:39 pm

zimba88 wrote:I agree the requirement for the FORMAT of the FPS is quite ridiculous. The new rule also demand Register Of Members to be obtained from companies house (if you invested via shares). Funny enough, a company's register of members is a document created by the company owners themselves as explicitly described in Companies Act 2006 and companies house does NOT even issue the shareholders details to you :lol:
I suggest to stick with Moneysoft format and avoid headaches with HO :!: Not having appeal rights has made this extremely difficult to be honest
Yes I agree it is ridiculous and as I said earlier HO is out of touch with the business world.
So what is your take on SAGE FPS already submitted

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by jafersadeq » Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:45 pm

On same computer, you can install many softwares for payroll, you can connect all software by export-import data, it is same data submitted to HMRC, no changes, the difference is in printing FPS and other documents.
It is five things: total payment, tax deducted, NI deducted, starting date, leaving date.
In the main data there are more details than you see on the printout, the printout is the summary.
Try to print the xml file for all software installed on that computer, it will be same, no changes.
HMRC receives that xml file and they record just Tax, NI on your HMRC record, on 6th of each month you can see the total of (tax+NI) on your record, after that you can pay them.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by Dangerous Dragon » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:20 am

Jafersadeq,

I guess we cannot import other payroll backups to money soft application as each application uses diff formats of data backups, it may corrupt the data while exporting. I think it would be better if one can do manual FPS in money soft.

My friend already spoken to his accountant if we can import the data to money soft from sage and he said no, he sent a request to sage to see if the report can be edited in FPS section (We can bespoke the reports in sage ), once he get a reply I will post it here for other people to go through.

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Re: FPS via SAGE as per New guidance

Post by Zimba » Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:05 pm

I believe the raw XML data submitted to HMRC (which I guess is available from Sage) can be used to prepare a suitable format FPS reports.
I am thinking of writing a plug-in to do that on Sage if possible :lol:
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