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Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

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ekbe01
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Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:22 am

Hello,

I was wondering if there is any difference between combining two part-time jobs to add up to 30h a week and creating one full-time job (30+ h per week) which is shared by two people?

Part-time jobs:
I understand the hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined to add up to 30 hours a week or more and form the equivalent of one full-time job (both part-time jobs should exist for 12 months). Is there any benefit in creating two part-time roles with very similar job descriptions over creating one job share?

Full-time jobs: I understand that within the same job, another worker can replace a worker who is employed for part of a year and then leaves the job, so that the employment as a whole adds up to 12 months. Can a full-time job be transformed into a job share with two people sharing one job (hours add up to 30 hours a week) after the first worker (full time) leaves the job? Example: we start with one person doing 30h p/w, this person leaves in 5 months and then two people start on this position as a job share each doing 15h p/w.

Also, how does the Home Office count 12 months? 52 weeks or 365/366 days?

Thank you!

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by marcnath » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:41 am

ekbe01 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:22 am
Hello,

I was wondering if there is any difference between combining two part-time jobs to add up to 30h a week and creating one full-time job (30+ h per week) which is shared by two people?

Part-time jobs:
I understand the hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined to add up to 30 hours a week or more and form the equivalent of one full-time job (both part-time jobs should exist for 12 months). Is there any benefit in creating two part-time roles with very similar job descriptions over creating one job share?

Full-time jobs: I understand that within the same job, another worker can replace a worker who is employed for part of a year and then leaves the job, so that the employment as a whole adds up to 12 months. Can a full-time job be transformed into a job share with two people sharing one job (hours add up to 30 hours a week) after the first worker (full time) leaves the job? Example: we start with one person doing 30h p/w, this person leaves in 5 months and then two people start on this position as a job share each doing 15h p/w.

Also, how does the Home Office count 12 months? 52 weeks or 365/366 days?

Thank you!
Under immigration rules, there is no difference. But, it is way more easier to understand combining two part-time jobs ( as compared to one full time job shared by many people ) as that scenario is explicitly set out in the immigration rules. If you go for the latter, make sure you explain it in separate letters/cover letters.

It is 52 weeks
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

ekbe01
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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:08 pm

Thank you, marcnath.
Do I understand it will work if I transform one existing full-time job into a job share? Start with one person full-time and at some point continue with two people doing this same job as a job share? Will it be considered as the same job which exists for 12 months?
I will appreciate your help.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by marcnath » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:13 pm

ekbe01 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:08 pm
Thank you, marcnath.
Do I understand it will work if I transform one existing full-time job into a job share? Start with one person full-time and at some point continue with two people doing this same job as a job share? Will it be considered as the same job which exists for 12 months?
I will appreciate your help.
I am not the decider whether it will work or not - that is HO's job.

All I can say is that, as per my reading/interpretation of the immigration rules, it should be perfectly fine. There are others in this forum who have successfully done it that way but those were under transitional rules.

You may have to add additional documents to show how you have met more than 30 hrs in 52 weeks - but I think you have a strong basis to argue that should be allowed.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:19 pm

Thanks, marcnath. None of us are the HO deciders here but it's nice to have a professional opinion.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by marcnath » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:32 pm

ekbe01 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:19 pm
Thanks, marcnath. None of us are the HO deciders here but it's nice to have a professional opinion.
You are welcome.

But note that these are not professional opinions either :) only personal opinions
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by mohsensari » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:24 pm

Hi,
In online application form, there is no option to combine 2 different part jobs as policy guidance I’m wondering why application form isn’t match with policy guidance.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you.
Here is my next question.

I'm considering hiring a UK citizen who is only spending about 90 days a year in the UK and is mostly based in Germany. The work can be done entirely online, we do not have an office as such. This person has a British passport, has an address in the UK (proved by Council tax bill), NIN and a British account.

The Guidance only asks for a passport copy (or other ways to confirm citizenship) to prove that this person has a settled status in the UK. Also, "What is a settled worker?" section defines a ‘settled worker’ is a person who is a national of the UK without any comments about where this person lives.

Dear Forum, what do you think about this situation and will this job count towards job creation? Will this person be considered as "settled" in the UK?
Thank you!

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by marcnath » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:21 pm

ekbe01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:53 pm
Thank you.
Here is my next question.

I'm considering hiring a UK citizen who is only spending about 90 days a year in the UK and is mostly based in Germany. The work can be done entirely online, we do not have an office as such. This person has a British passport, has an address in the UK (proved by Council tax bill), NIN and a British account.

The Guidance only asks for a passport copy (or other ways to confirm citizenship) to prove that this person has a settled status in the UK. Also, "What is a settled worker?" section defines a ‘settled worker’ is a person who is a national of the UK without any comments about where this person lives.

Dear Forum, what do you think about this situation and will this job count towards job creation? Will this person be considered as "settled" in the UK?
Thank you!
You are right - the immigration rules does not address this situation and it should be ok. However, it does seem to be against one of the objectives to create more employment in the UK. I am not familiar enough with employment law to know if there are any constraints to hiring someone overseas on local terms (I can't imagine there would be) but it may be something you want to take professional advice on as you are supposed to comply to all employment laws also.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by marcnath » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:29 pm

marcnath wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:21 pm
ekbe01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:53 pm
Thank you.
Here is my next question.

I'm considering hiring a UK citizen who is only spending about 90 days a year in the UK and is mostly based in Germany. The work can be done entirely online, we do not have an office as such. This person has a British passport, has an address in the UK (proved by Council tax bill), NIN and a British account.

The Guidance only asks for a passport copy (or other ways to confirm citizenship) to prove that this person has a settled status in the UK. Also, "What is a settled worker?" section defines a ‘settled worker’ is a person who is a national of the UK without any comments about where this person lives.

Dear Forum, what do you think about this situation and will this job count towards job creation? Will this person be considered as "settled" in the UK?
Thank you!
You are right - the immigration rules does not address this situation and it should be ok. However, it does seem to be against one of the objectives to create more employment in the UK. I am not familiar enough with employment law to know if there are any constraints to hiring someone overseas on local terms (I can't imagine there would be) but it may be something you want to take professional advice on as you are supposed to comply to all employment laws also.
The original post you posted the question on had an answer from @vinny that ordinary resident in the UK is needed for being a settled worker. While I can't find his reference any more, it is a logical assumption. So, though you may be argue that the immigration rules no longer put that as a condition, there is a definite possibility it may be rejected (at least initially)
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:53 pm

Thank you! Agree about the objectives of the immigration law but can't see how it's reflected in the Guidance. I'd really like to work with this proposed employee but I'm not sure it will be accepted by the Home Office and I can't create a 3rd job for him hence the question ))
marcnath wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:29 pm
The original post you posted the question on had an answer from @vinny that ordinary resident in the UK is needed for being a settled worker.
What's the "ordinary resident" is not quite clear though... That link is not active now but this was quoted from there:
Settled status
You are normally resident in the United Kingdom with no immigration restriction on the length of your stay. To be free of immigration restriction you must have the right of abode or indefinite leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom.
which is any UK citizen...

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:09 pm

A separate question.
One of my existing part-time employees is an EU citizen living in the UK. Do I understand nothing is changing for him from 29 March 2019? Do I understand EU citizens only need to apply for a settled status to extend it after June 2021 and until 31 Dec 2020 then they're considered "settled" without any extra paperwork?
Thank you!

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by marcnath » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:11 pm

Ok. I found this which indicates that you would have a risk if you employ this person.

The Immigration Act 1971 and British Nationality Act 1981 state that a person is ‘settled’ in the UK if they are ordinarily resident in the UK without being subject to immigration time restrictions. A child born in the UK will be a British citizen if either parent is settled in the UK at the time of the birth. For an explanation of the term ‘parent’, see the general information guidance.
The term ordinary residence is not defined in the immigration or nationality acts and has not been defined in any Act of Parliament. The leading case in this area is R v Barnet LBC ex parte Shah [1983] 1 All ER 226. The House of Lords found that the concept of ordinary residence implied:
• ordinary residence is established if there is a regular habitual mode of life in a particular place for the time being, whether of short or long duration, the continuity of which has persisted apart from temporary or occasional absences, residence must be both:
o voluntary
o adopted for a settled purpose
• a person can be ordinarily resident in more than one country at the same time, distinguishing it from domiciled
• ordinary residence is proven more by objective evidence than evidence of an individual’s state of mind at a point in time
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by marcnath » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:15 pm

ekbe01 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:09 pm
A separate question.
One of my existing part-time employees is an EU citizen living in the UK. Do I understand nothing is changing for him from 29 March 2019? Do I understand EU citizens only need to apply for a settled status to extend it after June 2021 and until 31 Dec 2020 then they're considered "settled" without any extra paperwork?
Thank you!
I don't think that is clear yet - that may be the proposal but until things are final in law, you can't determine anything.

However, I am confident that HO will not apply any rules retrospectively
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:35 pm

marcnath wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:11 pm
ordinary residence is established if there is a regular habitual mode of life in a particular place for the time being, whether of short or long duration, the continuity of which has persisted apart from temporary or occasional absences
Thank you very much marcnath, really appreciate.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:06 am

Happy Christmas, dear Forum!

A question about how the Home Office calculates the number of hours per week an employee works in each particular month.
Example: full-time job, 30 hours per week in the contract, £10 per hour.
Monthly salary calculated by my accountant: £10 * 1.560h (30h per week * 52 weeks) / 12 months = £1,300 each month.
How does the Home office calculate the number of weeks per month, please? Do they calculate the actual number of days per month or they average just like my accountant does?
Thank you!

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by marcnath » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:31 am

ekbe01 wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:06 am
Happy Christmas, dear Forum!

A question about how the Home Office calculates the number of hours per week an employee works in each particular month.
Example: full-time job, 30 hours per week in the contract, £10 per hour.
Monthly salary calculated by my accountant: £10 * 1.560h (30h per week * 52 weeks) / 12 months = £1,300 each month.
How does the Home office calculate the number of weeks per month, please? Do they calculate the actual number of days per month or they average just like my accountant does?
Thank you!
Why would HO want to calculate weeks per month ?

They take the Gross salary from the FPS/Payslip and divide it by the hourly rate you state in the application form to get the no. of hours worked per pay period.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:11 pm

marcnath wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:31 am
They take the Gross salary from the FPS/Payslip and divide it by the hourly rate you state in the application form to get the no. of hours worked per pay period.
Thank you.
How do they turn the number of hours worked per pay period into "hours per week", please? Full-time is 30 h per week so how does this convert into the number of hours worked per pay period, please?
Thank you )

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by marcnath » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:36 pm

ekbe01 wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:11 pm
marcnath wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:31 am
They take the Gross salary from the FPS/Payslip and divide it by the hourly rate you state in the application form to get the no. of hours worked per pay period.
Thank you.
How do they turn the number of hours worked per pay period into "hours per week", please? Full-time is 30 h per week so how does this convert into the number of hours worked per pay period, please?
Thank you )
If your pay period is monthly, then 130 hrs/month is considered to be full time. 130 = 30*52/12
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:49 pm

Thank you!

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:34 pm

Dear forum,
A question about Sick Leave and Statutory Sick Pay.

A part-time employee (15h a week) was sick for a week. He'll be getting SSP for all the qualifying days except for the first 3 ‘waiting days’. The total amount this employee will receive this month will be lower than normal. Three days of his sick leave will be unpaid and 4 days will be paid based on £92.05 a week.

How does the Home Office look at it and will I be able to claim a half-time job with 15h a week for this month? The job exists, the position is filled, this person is still an employee but if the Home Office simply takes the Gross salary from the Payslip and divides it by the 'normal' hourly rate the number of hours this month will be below 15/week and I won't have enough hours this month to claim one full-time job (combined with another 15h part-time job).

Sick pay is only mentioned in the Guidance in relation to genuine self-employment.
Are there other cases?
I will v much appreciate your help.

p.s. also, can I pay SSP at all if the employee is not submitting an SC2 form? He informed the company he was sick but no paperwork yet )
Thank you!

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by marcnath » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:52 am

This would be an exception to the simple calculation of pay/hourly rate. You will need to explain in a cover letter but, in my opinion, should qualify for the same hours as when not on sick leave.
There was at least one case shared here where HO refused initially but accepted (in AR) that maternity leave was qualifying for job calculation.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:48 pm

Thank you very much! You're always very very helpful.

Dear forum, just in case can I ask you to have a look at the payslips (re situation discussed below)? Do you think this is a correct way to reflect an employee's 7 day sick leave? Part-time employee, 15h/week. The total hours paid this month are 50 (not 65) plus there's an SSP report.
I'll much appreciate your help!

Normal payslip:
Pay Period Feb-2019
Pay Date 05-Mar-2019
Pay Type Monthly
Payment Method BACS
Works Number 2
Payments
Rate 1
Hours 65.00
Rate 8.00
Amount 520.00

Total Hourly Pay 520.00
Total Payments 520.00
Deductions Income Tax 0.00
National Insurance 0.00
Total Deductions 0.00
Net Pay 520.00

March payslip
Pay Period Mar-2019
Pay Date 05-Apr-2019
Pay Type Monthly
Payment Method BACS
Works Number 2
Payments
Rate 1
Hours 50.00
Rate 8.00
Amount 400.00

Total Hourly Pay 400.00
SSP added 36.82
Total Payments 436.82
Deductions Income Tax 0.00
National Insurance 0.00
Total Deductions 0.00
Net Pay 436.82

Sickness Report SSP1
Sick Date / Status / Work days in week / SSP Due / Pay Period / SSP paid in period / Linked SSP weeks
Thu 14-Mar-2019 / Waiting day 1 (PIW not linked)
Fri 15-Mar-2019 / Waiting day 2
Sat 16-Mar-2019 / Not a normal working day
Sun 17-Mar-2019 / Not a normal working day
Mon 18-Mar-2019 / Waiting day 3
Tue 19-Mar-2019 / SSP payable on 05-Apr-2019 / 5 / 18.41 / 12 / 18.41 / 0.20
Wed 20-Mar-2019 / SSP payable on 05-Apr-2019 / 5 / 18.41 / 12 / 18.41 / 0.20

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by ekbe01 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:52 pm

Dear forum,
I have a part-time employee (15h/week) who is a UK-based UK citizen.
She's just got a 6-month contract in the US (30 or 35h/week) and will be moving to the US for 6 months. After that, she's going to come back to the UK.
My business is an online database so the work can be done online from anywhere in the world, we do not have an office. She would like to continue working for me.

Question: Will these 6 months count towards job creation? Will this person be considered as "settled" in the UK?
Thank you!

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Re: Job creation: two part time jobs vs job share

Post by marcnath » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:33 am

ekbe01 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:52 pm
Dear forum,
I have a part-time employee (15h/week) who is a UK-based UK citizen.
She's just got a 6-month contract in the US (30 or 35h/week) and will be moving to the US for 6 months. After that, she's going to come back to the UK.
My business is an online database so the work can be done online from anywhere in the world, we do not have an office. She would like to continue working for me.

Question: Will these 6 months count towards job creation? Will this person be considered as "settled" in the UK?
Thank you!
If the salary is being paid in the UK, with a UK address on the payslip and all NI, etc. is paid, I suspect it can be counted.
However, there is a bit of grey area in the definition of "settled" and it is possible for HO to claim the person is not "settled" in the UK if she is living abroad, so it is possibly safer to assume it won't be counted.
My comments are in no way meant to be advisory. I have no professional knowledge of immigration. These are based on my own experience, convictions and personal interpretation of publicly available information.

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