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Refusal Indication

Only for UK Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) points system

Moderators: Casa, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, Zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, push

arm007
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Refusal Indication

Post by arm007 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:27 pm

Hi
Need Urgent comment from guru people like zimba .. case to submit in few days,

My employee working hours are minimum weekly 30 hours , and my pay role is monthly so each monthly pay slip is mentioned below .

My lawyer said they need 1560 hours in 12 months , and will take 130 hours from each month and discard all the extra hours , and your each month should be 130 hours or more .

1: MAY..................136 Hours..................APPROVE HOURS 130
2: JUNE..................130 Hours..................APPROVE HOURS 130
3: JULY..................140 Hours..................APPROVE HOURS 130
4: AUG..................132 Hours..................APPROVE HOURS 130
5: SEP ..................140 Hours..................APPROVE HOURS 130
6: OCT ..................140 Hours..................APPROVE HOURS 130
7: NOV..................124 Hours ! ..................APPROVE HOURS 124 //////
8: DEC ..................148 Hours..................APPROVE HOURS 130
9: JAN ..................131 Hours..................APPROVE HOURS 130
10: FEB ..................124 Hours ! ..................APPROVE HOURS 124 /////
11: MAR..................139 Hours..................APPROVE HOURS 130
12: APRIL..................139 Hours..................APPROVE HOURS 130

if they discard extra hours more then 130. then in feb and nov their are less working days in month and thats why in these months hours are less then 130 .

and in this case I cant meet 1560 hours in 12 months requirement , even though my employee has worked minimum 30 hours a week as required.


I am super confused what to do at the end need help.

alishaikh777
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by alishaikh777 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:40 pm

Dear arm
I got same problem my friend. I asked my lawyer he said as long as your employee is working 30 hours per week or 120 hours monthly is ok as per guidance.

But i doubt as my pay role is monthly and i will be submitting monthly pay slip which showing 126 hours in month of feb, less then 130 hours , how will caseworker come to know its 30 hours a week or less or more ,

in my case feb month is 126 hours , even if i see weekly it is 30 hours or more.

you are right super confusing , i feel only zimba may guide us the right way .

as your lawyer is saying you are wrong , my lawyer is saying you are right. we both are in same ship.

senior people pls help

arm007
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by arm007 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:47 pm

yes aalishaikh777, i m very confused and dont know what to do. i believe wait for senior people to comment and see what help we will get.

i m desperately waiting for help guruzz.

cappachino
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by cappachino » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:56 pm

120 hours per month is the requirement.
recheck the application form and guidance.

sunnykrish1
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by sunnykrish1 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:00 pm

Hello ,
monthly 120 hours is full time , as HO accepted my friend application,
so do not worry about it.

cappachino
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by cappachino » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:05 pm

cappachino wrote:120 hours per month is the requirement.
recheck the application form and guidance.
page 46 of the application form (paragraph above the employee table)

Seeing this if I were you I would have doubts on the capability of my solicitor.

Mrchaany
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by Mrchaany » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:07 pm

There is 52 week in one year.
30 hrs per week is full time job.
But 120 hrs per month is not full time job.
30 hrs x 52 weeks is 1560 hrs
Which means 130 hrs per month is full time job.
Strong commitment, extreme faith and honesty will recognize your existence.

jafersadeq
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by jafersadeq » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:17 pm

Business2business wrote:There is 52 week in one year.
30 hrs per week is full time job.
But 120 hrs per month is not full time job.
30 hrs x 52 weeks is 1560 hrs
Which means 130 hrs per month is full time job.
You are right..

alishaikh777
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by alishaikh777 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:27 pm

Business2business wrote:There is 52 week in one year.
30 hrs per week is full time job.
But 120 hrs per month is not full time job.
30 hrs x 52 weeks is 1560 hrs
Which means 130 hrs per month is full time job.
you are right 30 hrs x 52 weeks is 1560 .. but you can not divide 1560 to 12 months . as in each months there is no accurate 4 weeks .

lets say like this , if 30 hours a week means 6 hours a day. five working days a week 5 x 6 = 30

in a February month 21 working days x 6 hours = 126 hours .

so if i appointed a worker 30 hours a week means 6 hours a day . does not help me in the month of feb.

how it is possible.

arm007
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by arm007 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:34 pm

cappachino wrote:
cappachino wrote:120 hours per month is the requirement.
recheck the application form and guidance.
page 46 of the application form (paragraph above the employee table)

Seeing this if I were you I would have doubts on the capability of my solicitor.
cappachino, i have seen the guidance it says 120/ hour a month but on other hand i have seen refusal on forum that says 130 hours will be accepted and rest will be ignored.

so still very confused.

cappachino
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by cappachino » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:40 pm

arm007 wrote:
cappachino wrote:
cappachino wrote:120 hours per month is the requirement.
recheck the application form and guidance.
page 46 of the application form (paragraph above the employee table)

Seeing this if I were you I would have doubts on the capability of my solicitor.
cappachino, i have seen the guidance it says 120/ hour a month but on other hand i have seen refusal on forum that says 130 hours will be accepted and rest will be ignored.

so still very confused.
How can they refuse someone on 120 hours?
They cannot go against what is written on their form and guidance.
In such a case forget AR go directly for JR and claim for damages. :lol:

alishaikh777
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by alishaikh777 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:46 pm

http://www.imageno.com/puvuhv8os7y9pic.html
check above link my friend which actually started confusion

arm007
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by arm007 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:49 pm

How can they refuse someone on 120 hours?
They cannot go against what is written on their form and guidance.
In such a case forget AR go directly for JR and claim for damages. :lol:[/quote]

Cappachino, check the link of refusal on 130 hours:
http://www.imageno.com/puvuhv8os7y9pic.html

cappachino
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by cappachino » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:27 pm

arm007 wrote:How can they refuse someone on 120 hours?
They cannot go against what is written on their form and guidance.
In such a case forget AR go directly for JR and claim for damages. :lol:
Cappachino, check the link of refusal on 130 hours:
http://www.imageno.com/puvuhv8os7y9pic.html[/quote]

When was this refusal?
Change from 130 to 120 was about a year back. (old application form did not have 120 hours )

ukbiz
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by ukbiz » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:41 am


Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) Application form (version 11/2016) Page 46 ''We consider full-time to be 30 hours per week / 120 hours per month''.


Therefore the latest T1 policy guidance accepts 120/Month.

30 Hours per week means an employee was working 6 hours per day so in those months were working days are less total month hours should be less than 130 for example in Feb 2016 it should be total 126 hours ( 21 working days X 6 hours per day).

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aby00156
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by aby00156 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:28 am

The Immigration Rules takes the priority over the guidance. The ECO's access your application based on immigration rules.

As per immigration rules paragraph 49
A full time job is one involving at least 30 hours of work a week. Two or more-part time jobs that add up to 30 hours a week will count as one full time job, and may score points in Tables 5 and 6, if both jobs exist for at least 12 months. However, one full time job of more than 30 hours work a week will not count as more than one full time job. If jobs are being combined, the employees being relied upon must be clearly identified by the applicant in their application. Jobs that have existed for less than 12 months cannot be combined together to make up a 12-month period.
They calculate the job creation on weekly basis and not on monthly basis.
Therefore it is a requirement to have at-least 30hours per week. (30 * 52 weeks = 1560 hours per year)

I agree that this differs from what is written in the guidance released on 11/16. As the guidance states
We consider full-time to be 30 hours per week / 120 hours per month
.

Probably can query it out with AR but I don't think it will be of much help.
So verily, with every difficulty, there is relief.

ukbiz
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by ukbiz » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:35 am

[quote="ukbiz"]

Please read;

Annex F – Example job creation table Page 89 of Tier 1(Entrepreneur) Policy Guidance version 11/2016

Table 3b2 - Table of evidence for employment created Page 46 of Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) Application form (version 11/2016)

Both read as ''We consider full-time to be 30 hours per week /120 hours per month]''


Immigration Rules Appendix A , Paragraph 49. A full time job is one involving at least 30 hours of work a week. Two or more part time jobs that add up to 30 hours a week will count as one full time job, and may score points in Tables 5 and 6, if both jobs exist for at least 12 months. However, one full time job of more than 30 hours work a week will not count as more than one full time job. If jobs are being combined, the employees being relied upon must be clearly identified by the applicant in their application. Jobs that have existed for less than 12 months cannot be combined together to make up a 12 month period.

Therefore both the latest T1 policy guidance & application form accepts 120/Month and Appendix A only indicates 30 per week without any indication of Total Monthly hours.

30 Hours per week means an employee was working 6 hours per day so in those months were working days are less total month hours should be less than 130 for example in Feb 2016 there are only 4 weeks & 1 day so total should be 126 hours ( 21 working days X 6 hours per day) and how someone can work 130 hours in Feb 2016 if it has only 4 Weeks & 1 working Day !

Business acumen conclusion:
If the case worker assume that Monthly 130 hours in each calendar month will remain fixed irrespective of numbers of weeks and working days in that month then it means they are just taking average monthly hours of total 1560 yearly hours which is mathematically correct (1560/12 = 130 ) but it is logically wrong from actual working hours per month as the total working hours will be same 1560 over 12 months if someone working 30 per week but the total monthly hours will vary as over or below 130 hours per month based on actual weeks and working days in particuler calendar month.

Hence 120 hours per month are acceptable as per latest Tier 1(Entrepreneur) Policy Guidance version 11/2016 & Apendix A of immgration rules.

scholar 1
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by scholar 1 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:49 pm

please can someone check the refusal letter properly, its says ''we accept a maximum of 130hrs per month''. The minimum is 120hrs. The guidance cannot be wrong.

noajthan
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by noajthan » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:51 pm

scholar 1 wrote:please can someone check the refusal letter properly, its says ''we accept a maximum of 130hrs per month''. The minimum is 120hrs. The guidance cannot be wrong.
The guidance can be wrong. Guidance is just guidance.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

scholar 1
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by scholar 1 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:02 pm

how can guidance be wrong when many people including myself have done 120hrs/month and we have successfully extended our visa. 130 hrs is the maximum you will be awarded for any worker. If you have a staff that has worked 140hrs a month, only a maximum of 130hrs will be considered not that that is the minimum. Period

ukbiz
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by ukbiz » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:15 pm

Appendix A, does say 30/week but it does not say it has to be 130 fixed hour per month if your employee works weekly 30/W and over 12 months total hours should be 1560 which is equal to average 130 hours per month.

Hi think you guys are making it complicated for no reason, in real business world if you are working 30 hours per week your maximum month hours for Feb 2016 will be 126 hours, not 130 ! as your monthly total hours on 30/W will be proportionate to numbers of working days each month and if CW don't understand and can't use their common sense to calculate that then they are highly incompetent to deal with highly skills case !

If guidance by HO can be wrong then the interpretation of Appendix A as 30/W = Fixed 130/M can also prove to be wrong and you can defend this in AR which should be acceptable.

And If you are still not Convenience then Show the extra months of employment (more than 12 months) to cover the deficiency of monthly hours of those months which totals are less than 130/M , for your peace of Mind.

alishaikh777
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by alishaikh777 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:17 pm

now it has become very simple ,
if they are saying 30 hours a week means , 6 hours a day .
52 weeks in a year X 30 hrs = 1560 hours
each year having 261 working days X 6 = 1566 Hours
each of the month is having different number of working hours . lets say 2016 as follows ;
JAN...........21 Days X 6 Hrs = 126 hrs
FEB...........21 Days X 6 Hrs = 126 hrs
MAR...........23 Days X 6 Hrs = 138 hrs
APR...........21 Days X 6 Hrs = 126 hrs
MAY...........22 Days X 6 Hrs = 132 hrs
JUN...........22 Days X 6 Hrs = 132 hrs
JUL...........21 Days X 6 Hrs = 126 hrs
AUG...........23 Days X 6 Hrs = 138 hrs
SEP...........22 Days X 6 Hrs = 132 hrs
OCT...........21 Days X 6 Hrs = 126 hrs
NOV...........22 Days X 6 Hrs = 132 hrs
DEC...........22 Days X 6 Hrs = 132 hrs

The result shows , the maximum is 138 hours in few months , and minimum is 126 hours.
So the guidance is correct 120 hours / month . means they saying any monthly pay slip 120 hours are above is acceptable , as in some years there is month when there are 20 working days X 6, which means 120 Hours .
So they saying we will consider 120 hours are above a month as a required .

So the logic majority people or lawyers are having that 1560 hours divided in 12 months is equal to = 130 hours , which is no way possible because in many months its 138 hours and in few months its 126 hours or 120 hours .
So the simple definition is if you are paying weekly the working hours minimum should be 30 hours . if you are paying monthly working hours minimum should be 120 hours .
and for more info , when we make employment contract we already mention every day working hours timings, so you can't beg your employee to work few hours more in month of Feb , as the working days are short . and you need to apply for visa.

I agree many of those in this topic who reffered guidance saying 120 hours month . if bad luck with CW,, then can easily win in JR .
cheers all

scholar 1
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by scholar 1 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:00 pm

Again, just explain in your cover letter to caseworker that worker x worked for so and so period 30hrs per week. That takes care of the calculation in your payslip.

Some weeks overlap in a month but I think the minimum is four weeks/month.

jafersadeq
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by jafersadeq » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:24 pm

scholar 1 wrote:please can someone check the refusal letter properly, its says ''we accept a maximum of 130hrs per month''. The minimum is 120hrs. The guidance cannot be wrong.
They said "We accept a maximum" NOT " we accept a minimum as well".
There is no minimum they pointed, the maximum is 130 and if a worker works 170 they just count 130.

jafersadeq
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Re: Refusal Indication

Post by jafersadeq » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:36 pm

alishaikh777 wrote:now it has become very simple ,
if they are saying 30 hours a week means , 6 hours a day .
52 weeks in a year X 30 hrs = 1560 hours
each year having 261 working days X 6 = 1566 Hours
each of the month is having different number of working hours . lets say 2016 as follows ;
JAN...........21 Days X 6 Hrs = 126 hrs
FEB...........21 Days X 6 Hrs = 126 hrs
MAR...........23 Days X 6 Hrs = 138 hrs
APR...........21 Days X 6 Hrs = 126 hrs
MAY...........22 Days X 6 Hrs = 132 hrs
JUN...........22 Days X 6 Hrs = 132 hrs
JUL...........21 Days X 6 Hrs = 126 hrs
AUG...........23 Days X 6 Hrs = 138 hrs
SEP...........22 Days X 6 Hrs = 132 hrs
OCT...........21 Days X 6 Hrs = 126 hrs
NOV...........22 Days X 6 Hrs = 132 hrs
DEC...........22 Days X 6 Hrs = 132 hrs

The result shows , the maximum is 138 hours in few months , and minimum is 126 hours.
So the guidance is correct 120 hours / month . means they saying any monthly pay slip 120 hours are above is acceptable , as in some years there is month when there are 20 working days X 6, which means 120 Hours .
So they saying we will consider 120 hours are above a month as a required .

So the logic majority people or lawyers are having that 1560 hours divided in 12 months is equal to = 130 hours , which is no way possible because in many months its 138 hours and in few months its 126 hours or 120 hours .
So the simple definition is if you are paying weekly the working hours minimum should be 30 hours . if you are paying monthly working hours minimum should be 120 hours .
and for more info , when we make employment contract we already mention every day working hours timings, so you can't beg your employee to work few hours more in month of Feb , as the working days are short . and you need to apply for visa.

I agree many of those in this topic who reffered guidance saying 120 hours month . if bad luck with CW,, then can easily win in JR .
cheers all

Are you paying MONTHLY or WEEKLY ? and what is the hourly rate, so that we can calculate it.

Thanks

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